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 Dijinn Blade

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imanecron
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 09:11

I say you do get the 2 extra attacks after reading your arguments, but they can only be basic power weapon attacks, that aren't benefited by any other weapon (huskblade, agoniser, venom blade etc.).

Of course, its also pretty easy to think that you have to use the djin blade to get the bonus. just have to wait until it is faq'd i guess
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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 19:58

Djinn blade is not normal weapon, you buy it as aditional wargear so I agree it grants 2 pw attacks each round of combat.

But dose djinn blade benefit from combat drugs/PfP??
Can I use djinn blade as my primary weapon + pistol to get 7pw attacks??

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abjectus
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 20:20

I think you have the option of using it as a power weapon, and the +2 attacks are separate wargear effect. So you could use with pistol to get a extra attack.

Also unless you swap the pistol for a blaster, you have 3 ccw.
the djin blade as a power weapon, a ccw that could be upgraded to second special ccw, and the pistol. So if you had agoniser, dijin, and splinter pistol, you could use agoniser and pistol to get 5 attacks with agoniser, maybe 2 pw from djin(if the +2 attacks are gained even if not wielded), When you have 3ccw it would be silly to combine the 2 special, instead of a special and the pistol.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 21:09

Wait, someone is mixing one thing in case of Servoarm. Rules say You make one additional S8 I1 PW attack (which is rolled separetly). Clearly we have weapon profile. This is not case of *just* +2 attacks, like in Djin Blade description. Ok, they are rolled sepaterly BUT IMHO they use model weapon (ie. thanks to +2 attacks), not Djin "profile" since it is not specified.

@GrenAcid wrote:
Djinn blade is not normal weapon, you buy it as aditional wargear so I agree it grants 2 pw attacks each round of combat.
Nope, it is (one handed, by default) PW (as stated in description) but it appears that it always give +2 attacks (due to special, wargear-like rule, check above why "always").

But dose djinn blade benefit from combat drugs/PfP??
Yep, it is normal weapon that use Your S.
Can I use djinn blade as my primary weapon + pistol to get 7pw attacks??
Yep, it is normal, one hand (by default not-2hand = 1hand) weapon.

oh, one thing. While I DO like that +2 attacks, I hope it would be nerfed to Djin attacks only.

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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 18 2011, 00:48

Quote :
Djinn blade is not normal weapon, you buy it as aditional wargear so I agree it grants 2 pw attacks each round of combat.
Nope, it is (one handed, by default) PW (as stated in description) but it appears that it always give +2 attacks (due to special, wargear-like rule, check above why "always").

So what, you claim additional 2A for huskblade when it is writen its just pw?? or I get it all wrong??

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Honorius
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 18 2011, 07:13

Hmm, well the way I am going to play with it is that you only get the attacks if you wield the Djin blade. It makes more sense to me this way. I just don't want to spend the time arguing the point that you still get it when you wield an Agonsier or Husk Blade. I'm not too bothered if I am shooting myself in the foot by doing this. I was thinking of running an Archon with Agoniser, Djin Blade, Soul Trap, Shadow Field and maybe Combat Drugs depending on points. That way I can hopefully finish off a MC or IC with the Agoniser and then have S6 for Djin Blade attacks
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 18 2011, 07:29

opponent could argue you are avoiding chance of rolling doubles by not rolling extra attacks, no interpretation avoids all objections opponent might have.
The extra attacks are power weapon since the dijin grants them and is one, but at models ws and str, so no instant death from +2 if using husk blade as main weapon, That was how I read it at least. They really need multiple faq answers for the djinn blade(and blade of midnight in grey knight codex, same item probably, spec. char. 'acquired' from eldar pirates), way to many ways to take the wording in codex.
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Honorius
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 18 2011, 07:45

Well if my opponent tried to argue that I was trying to avoid rolling doubles by not making the extra attacks, I would gladly agree with them and take an extra 2 S3 power weapon attacks. If my opponent wants me to have extra attacks, then why would I try to disagree? It would only be a disadvantage against MC's, and even then, the extra attacks would probably find a use another time on the battlefield
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Radium
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 18 2011, 07:57

@Aroshamash wrote:

And the servo-arm is a powerfist.


No, it is not. Please read your codices before claiming something like this.

@Aroshamash wrote:
Plasma grenades also come under the heading "Weapons" in the codex, as does the Flip-belt, thus making them "weapons", so do you need to "wield" them in place of other weapons to gain the benefit from them too?

A Djinn blade is not a weapon because it is in that section (all 'regular' wargear is in that section) but because it says so in the description: "... a Djinn Blade is a power weapon".

And exactly BECAUSE it is a weapon, you follow the rules on pg 42 of the BRB. If you have multiple special weapons (say a Djinn Blade and a Huskblade) you choose one of those, and use those rules. Otherwise a character with a Power Fist and a Power Weapon could make Power Weapon attacks at double strength - please read the entry for Power Fists, if you think you always get the bonus attacks with DB you should also think this works.
Besides, as Xelkireth already pointed out, the rules for the DB specifically mention the wielder. If you read the entry carefully, also implying you need to wield the weapon in order for it to work. I know the rules are rather sloppy, but we need to to read them as carefully as we can.

Now, for the last time, I will state I think mr Kelly meant to have two extra attacks no matter what, but the rules do not work that way.

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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 18 2011, 15:14

Quote :
the rules for the DB specifically mention the wielder.
For me it sounds just like bearer...and since its in section of optional warger I dont see any point for not useing it alogside with huskblade, term "power wepon" dosnt implies its a wepon you have to carry in hand it just means it ignores armour saves.

It would be nice to see it in faq but until then Im stick with aditional 2 PW attacks.

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Archon Levitas
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 08:32

AHHHHHHHHHHHH SO CONFUSING AHHHHHHHHHHHHH (head explodes) Question

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 07:19

@Archon Levitas wrote:
AHHHHHHHHHHHH SO CONFUSING AHHHHHHHHHHHHH (head explodes) Question

Congratulations, you've just perfectly summed up the entire debate into one sentence!

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SinisterPlank
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 24 2011, 11:55

I have to say, some of you are alittle too overenthustiastic when reading the rules.
there's no wasy I would let anyone combine weapons like that.
You choose wich special weapon you use, and it's wreitten in the rules that you cannot combine different special weapons.

If you have a venomblade, a pistol and a djinnblade, you have three wepaons, yes, but two options
Either
base attacks
+1 from two CCW's (pistol and djinnblade)
+2 from djinnblade special rule
Total of base+3 PW attacks rolling to wounds at regular S.

OR

base attacks
+1 from two CCW's (pistol and Venmblade)
Total of base+1 attacks rolling to wound at poisoned (2+) or whatever.

This is much like the Scissorhands discussion, actually. If you read the rules on close combat weapons, it clearly states that a special weapon can only be combined with an identical special weapon, or a CCW(or count as CCW) unless otherwise specified in the rules entry. With that base rule in mind, I really can't understand your interpretations on either subject.
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Fletch
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 24 2011, 16:52

IMHO if you read the description, take into account where in the wargear section it is purchased I believe the Rules are quite clear.


You equip your Archon either with the standard CCW and Splinter Pistol or upgrade one or both of these weapons either way it results in your Archon's weapon's layout.

You then have the option of buying secondary effect wargear, or armor (not those upgrades that force you to replace any existing weapon the Archon can carry, i.e. pistols, CCW weapons, etc.).

The Dijinn Blade is in essence a Weapon Familiar that attacks twice each turn using the Archon's WS, Str and I. These two attacks are considered power weapon attacks so they have the added benefit of ignoring regular armor saves.

So regardless of what CCW's or Weapons (i.e. Blaster) your Archon chooses having a Dijinn blade (familiar) doesnt impact either his number of attacks or those made by the Dijinn Blade.

Example, Archon with Splinter Pistol, Agoniser, Ghostplate Armor and Dijinn Blade.

The Archon charges in with 6 Attacks (4 base, +1 for Pistol and Agoniser, +1 for charge) striking with his Agoniser at Int 7. Because the Archon also has a Dijinn blade floating around him 2 seperate additional attacks (rolled seperately per the Dijinn rules to see if it mistakenly hits his master) as a regular power weapon are made based on the Archons, current WS, Int and Str.

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 24 2011, 18:35

In that sense, I'm just going to have my space marine captain roll his powerweapon attacks on you, and then, roll his powerfist attack aswell at initiative 1.

They're not separate arcane items, or magically floating superpowers. The Djinn Blade is a Power Weapon (wich, as stated in the rulebook, is a special close combat weapon, not some comeall applicable rule) that has the added benefit of +2 attacks. Beyond that it stands to reason it follows all the standard restrictions of every other powerweapon in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 24 2011, 18:44

Ok guys, let's just leave it with this summary: discuss it with your opponent before the match, flipping a coin if you have to. This topic is just going around in circles, and like everywhere else it's been discussed, will not have an answer come from it. We can only hope that GW will adress the issue in an FAQ. As it stands, there are arguments for both sides, but the best answer is to use the "only if you actually wield it" option as the default.

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 24 2011, 19:11

@SinisterPlank wrote:
In that sense, I'm just going to have my space marine captain roll his powerweapon attacks on you, and then, roll his powerfist attack aswell at initiative 1.

They're not separate arcane items, or magically floating superpowers. The Djinn Blade is a Power Weapon (wich, as stated in the rulebook, is a special close combat weapon, not some comeall applicable rule) that has the added benefit of +2 attacks. Beyond that it stands to reason it follows all the standard restrictions of every other powerweapon in the game.

If your SMC had a similar piece of wargear (like a servo-arm or Dijinn Blade) then sure, if not then no.

How I described it makes 100% sense (to me) and is not game breaking or unbalancing to have an Archon pay 20 points for 2 simple PW attacks made at Str3, Int7.

It doesn't make sense however that an Archon should pay 15pts for just a power weapon requiring them to replace either his CCW or splinter pistol when he could spend just 5 points more for a power weapon that adds 2 additional attacks (so now the Dijinn ability is cheap). On top of that you didn't have to choose to loose your CCW or Pistol so you can now pick up a Blaster (dropping that silly CCW) and still get a +1 attack bonus for having a Dijinn Blade and Pistol for a grand total of +3 attacks .

Archon with Power Weapon and Blaster (90pts) = 4 power weapon attacks
Archon with Splinter Pistol, Dijinn Blade and Blaster (95pts) = 7 power weapon attacks

Yep makes total sense how you want to play it.



Or my view of the rule.....

Archon with Power Weapon, Blaster, and Dijinn Blade (110pts) = 6 power weapon attacks

Wait I change my mind, I like your way better cheers
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SinisterPlank
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 24 2011, 21:51

I personally find 20pts for the Djinn blade not to be worth it, but that's besides the point. yes, it's a PW with 5 pts extra for +2 attacks, but with a pretty hefty drawback. If you roll doubles, you'll get two PW autohits that'll wound on a 4+, statistically, every double means you loose a wound. It's a pretty nasty drawback for -only- two bonus attacks.

But I'll yield to Aroshamash point. If you want to play it like that, go for it.
If you play me, I'll say no, because the rules says you can only use one special weapon every round. That's also how I'd play it, if I had one. I would love to see a GW FAQ on this, but I don't believe there'll be one, sience I believe the devs consider this an obvious case, we'll see.

To the OP, considering the lack of consensus in the thread, I suppose I'll advise you to try it, if you want to be cheesy. But don't be surprised when your opponent tells you "no".
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 25 2011, 21:01

Quote :
They're not separate arcane items, or magically floating superpowers.
Yes, djinn blade is, it works like PW for armour saves. When you actualy reread Archon entry its clear its is aditional wargear like ghostplate.

Quote :
Or my view of the rule.....

Archon with Power Weapon, Blaster, and Dijinn Blade (110pts) = 6 power weapon attacks

Sounds fair to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 26 2011, 10:18

I'm positive they intended this rule the way they wrote it, as in the blade being a powerweapon, and thus, cannot be combined with any other special weapon. but what do I know? I'm just reading the rules right off the page, without silly borderline-cheating interpretations.

Can I just ask how you get the direct quote "Djinn Blade is a Power Weapon" into it -not- being a powerweapon, but simply somehow having the powerweapon rules -without- being an actual powerweapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 26 2011, 12:07

Think out of box and stop holding on that quote for a moment, when we look on facts we have 2 major ones:
1. Dijnn blade is aditional wargear for archon.
2. DB is PW for resolving armour saves(and only that)
There is no rule/paraghaph(like with clone/shadow filed) that prevent you from having normal PW/agonizer/DB on archon, isnt it?


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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 26 2011, 12:11

I'm with SinisterPlank on this one:

Pg. 56 Djinn Blade entry - "A Djinn blade is a power weapon" can't really see anything saying that it's NOT a PW

Pg. 84 Archon entry - I didn't found word "wargear" in list of options he can take but it sits right above the list of every piece of equipment he has with him for starters, but following the same logic some of you are using then I dare to say that his CCW is actually not a weapon....

Also the "Take any of the following" doesn't mean that nothing on the list is actually a weapon

Please have some decency - wanting to have a good IC is good but trying to make him even better with cheating is just sad

EDIT: Oh and about the rule saying that you can't fight with more than two one-handed weapons it's in the Rulebook, yes ?
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 26 2011, 12:14

With the risk of sounding like a broken record... if the wargear entry says it's a weapon, then it's a weapon, and follow all the restrictions for weapons.

And as mortis points out, the only listing of "wargear" that the archon entry has, contains armour, pistol, CCW and grenades. Pistol and CCW are both weapons, and they're still listed under wargear, you'll find this repeated throughout every entry in the codex, wich should prove my point beyond doubt, that all weapons are wargears. Wich wargears are weapons, are specified in their entries.

So far, the only argument as to why I'm wrong, is that Djinn Blade isn't a weapon. I still want someone to explain how that could be possible, when the entry clearly says it a weapon.

It says "Djinn blade is a Power Weapon", if you where right, it would say something like "Djinn Blade attacks ignore armour saves" or "djinn blade follows the same rules as a powerweapon for armour saves".
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 26 2011, 22:45

Ok, guys its pointless talk until GW realese faq. For now Ill stick with my version, if my opponent allow me.

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 27 2011, 00:03

@Mortis_Infernale wrote:

Please have some decency - wanting to have a good IC is good but trying to make him even better with cheating is just sad

I'm actually surprised by this unfortunate and unnessary comment. It is in extremely poor taste to accuse anyone of cheating if they choose to disagree with your view of a rule.

But just to be clear....

The accused cheater in this scenerio is the one paying more points for less attacks. Gotcha. clown


So if you believe the Dijinn blade is simply a power weapon with an additional special rule that doesn't require the Archon to replace any of his stock weaponry you are ok.

But if you believe the Dijinn blade is simply a special peice of wargear that only allows 2 bonus attacks to be made per turn "ignoring armor saves as a power weapon" but still requires the Archon to replace any of the stock Archon weaponry if you wish to impact the Archon's normal (non Dijinn bonus) attacks you get accused of cheating.

The supposed non cheater- Archon w/ Dijinn Blade, Splinter Pistol and Blaster (had to replace CCW) = 95 points for 7 power weapon attacks (2 of which are rolled seperate and have a 16.6% chance of hitting the Archon)

The accused cheater - Archon w/Power Weapon (had to replace CCW), Blaster (had to replace Splinter Pistol)and Dijinn Blade = 110 points for 6 power weapon attacks (oddly enough 2 of which are rolled seperate and have a 16.6% chance of hitting the Archon).

So by making the Archon worse (not better), i.e. spending 15 points more for one less power weapon attack you get labled a cheater...... scratch

Just agree to disagree





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