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 Will 6th help us vs GK?

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PostSubject: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 21 2012, 04:59

It seems after the DE codex hit mat ward decided that they were too good vs his precious marines so he wrote GK specifically to nerf us! Even an average general with a rhino/razor/psyflemen heavy list (which is almost all of them, bloody interweb!) can punish DE with little effort.

You'd think codexes released so close together would be more balanced vs each other. Im hoping against hope that GW is not as retarded at balancing their codexes as everyone says they are and 6th will sort this out.

Anyway i was thinking...

1. Everyone i talk to is bored with tankhammer 40k (many are leaving the game over this) so GW have to make tanks easier to kill or less powerful... dont they?

2. No way in a pink fit are dark glances worth 25pts. DE codex is one of the most balanced ever. So how could they screw up the primary weapon so badly?

3. CC attaks hitting vehicles on a set 4 or 6+ regardless of WS is dumb. If they make it easier to cc vehicles this would help balance nids as well.

4. Fast skimmers and flyers should be harder to hit.

Fortitude makes GK vehicles are too hard vs shooting and psy makes their own shooting brilliant vs light vehicles like ours.
The above changes would sort this out i think.

Do you think this will happen? What changes would you make? Any thoughts you have would be great thanx.
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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 21 2012, 05:15

1. Well...no, of course not. That said, I think it is not an unreasonable business decision for them to try and create an environment where armies will want to field more infantry either. The best case for them would be creating a situation where players could do both - so I'll admit I don't think 5th was part of an evil design scheme - just sloppiness in not realizing what they were doing.

2. Really, it *is* worth 25 points...if the game environment encouraged people to buy more AV13-14 vehicles. Back when...wait ::puts on old man glasses:: Okay - back in the day (the ancient times known as end of 4th edition and beginning of 5th edition) do you recall the power builds then? Land Raider spam was one of the big ones - we rather liked that situation, I can't tell you how happy I was to see some big green landraiders staring at me across the table. It was awesome. The meta game can be cylical, I suspect we'll have a moment again when people refer to lances as broken.

3. That is an interesting point about Nids - though at the same time with the ability to hit rear armor h2h with vehicles is an optimal strategy vs. Guard builds and the like...eh, this would hurt us too, somewhat, though it would also increase LandRaiders on the table which would help Wink I'll agree having it connected to WS somehow would be nice - but at the same time I also think a vehicle that moved cruising speed should be harder to hit then one that didn't. I don't think I have a good idea here myself.

4. I'm guessing you mean from shooting and not assault? I'll admit, coming off the old codex I am actually amazed at how tough our vehicles feel to me nowadays - back in the day they were easier to wreck and were basically assured death if you were inside at the time. I'd actually rather have back our ability to shoot after moving 12" in an open topped skimmer - I'd be happy being just as easy to destroy if I could get that back, Gunboats FTW!

(5.) I don't have any problems with the Psyammo - personally. It's good, but has glaring weaknesses versus other armies using AV13+ and I *like* that being part of the game meta right now. I will agree that a carte blanche ability to ignore the bulk of damage results is pretty annoying though, especially since our army relies on glancing quite a bit. If I could nerf only one thing in the game it would be Fortitude, it is a silly ability and not well thought out in my mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 21 2012, 16:16

1. Please god no. 4th ed with auto-disembark on a pen and no armor saves from an explosion (or was that 3rd??? its been so long) was bad and made tanks a death trap to begin with. Its also not in their best interest financially like Thor pointed out when making those huge tank spures are easier, and they can charge more (as you need more than just 2/3)

2. Personally I see them worth 20 points. 5 more points over your standard missle launcher, and an extra ability (apearantly thats how Mat Ward does upgrades. You want more strength, 5 points. You want to be faster, 5 points) that being said be happy we arent paying CWE prices...

3. I agree with Thor, but what it should be is that moving at a certain speed makes you a certain weapon skill, so moving at combat makes the tank WS 4 (meaning MEQ WS you still need to hit on a 4+) while moving at combat speed makes you WS 9 (meaning MEQ WS need to hit on 5s, but anything that actually pays points for a higher weapon skill will have a easier time hitting it) ofc this also will change if they decided to change the WS chart

4. +1 to Thor. I for one am very glad at how surivivable our paper airplanes are. *sits down in his rocker and pulls up an afgan* I remember the day when all we had were nightshields to protect our vehicles, and FNP was the name of our Grots special ability to ignore S5 and under shots. Really if they make them harder to hit I will understand, but if you want survivability, you are playing the wrong army Razz

5. I actually do disagree how liberal Matt Ward sprinkled upgrades for so cheap. Sure 5 pts for going from S$ to S5 is ok, but from S7 to S8 is just "wtf???" material, since going from doing just one wound to T4 models to ID them is huge. On top of that Foritude is just broken, and the statistics on ignore 2/3rd of a chart after to hit and pen is redicilous (worse when you add in psyfilemen really dont have to move, so that 2/3rds goes to 1/2) But if you believe the leaked 6th has some truth we do have some hope with the whole hull breach ruling. Although I think if that happens Crons will be the new GKs next edition...

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 21 2012, 16:52

1. Dont think so. Maybe little more reliable to kill, so Rhino wont live after 12 hits from a lascannon.

2. Hope there will be something. In leakhammer book that something is easier to hit big targets. Works for me, although rumours are that Evasion rule is gone from final version. By the way it is already ready and printing. Starter is Dark Angels vs Chaos.

3. What i hope is that after i wrecked/destroyed transport in CC i get in CC with whats inside. Cause that is really ridiculos right now, how poor sods who managed to do this are getting shot by transported unit.
Spend 170+ CC unit to kill 35 Rhino..great deal...

I also have a gut feeling that a Wych Cult armies will be far more viable then they are now. Something doesnt add up about them now. Like Succubi with WS8 which is not really a boon against any marine target. Haywires grenades that are just begging to be chosen light-AV method but just cant be that.

4. Well they are survavable. Maybe if open-toped bonus to Damage Chart will go away i wont shed a tear. Although that might be too much.
What i really hope is that we will have ability to fire from moving transport. It is even mentioned in the Codex, in strategy part. Maybe that will return raider with warriors back.

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 21 2012, 17:26

It depends, we hear just whispers in the wind about what 6th will truly have in store. I think our craft will become harder to hit, as the focus of fixing the shooting phase comes into play. So better transports, still fragile but speed gives us an edge. Hitting a stationary landraider at point blank range and shooting at a fast moving razor wing should not have the same 'to hit' roll. Really expect them to fix that.

If pistols can be used in CC that also cranks up wyches, who can suffer from the str 3. Not to mention assaulting after deepstrike. Duke and his raider trick spring to mind.

On the subject of GKs, there is talk that units may have to get out of transports to score objectives. That makes the small GK squads very vulnerable to a mass of venom fire. Specially if the part is true about scoring every turn to earn points. They cant just hide and ping out psycannon shots, hopefully.

If you look closely we have a few snippets in our dex that don't quite add up, I believe those are 6th ed features.

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 22 2012, 04:58

Thanx guys, great stuff!

1. No one wants to return to 4th or whenever it was when transports were death-traps but now the pendulum has swung a bit too far the other way. There has to be a happy medium. People are bored with mech-spam = win vs non mech-spam. The game has grown stale. Many are abandoning GW for Warma/hordes and the like. If 6th doesn't shake up the meta im really tempted to join them.

Business wise i think when they release a new edition, GW want to change the game just enough so both noobs and grizzled vets will want/have to buy a bunch more models or whole new armies. If nothing changes in the competitive meta (ie mech-spam) vets will not have to change their armies. Only new customers will be bringing in the $$$ and GW will have wasted a huge opportunity.

2. I agree with Thor. If they created an environment where AV 13-14 was the norm then they would be worth 25 pts. Otherwise they need a serious boost and +1 to hit stationary tanks (how many do you see of those) is not going to cut it.

3. I agree with all. WS and vehicles speed should be used to make it easier to hit vehicles than it is now. Azdrubael has a good point. A squad should be able to get at what's inside. Getting shot to pieces and or charged to death after wrecking a 35 pt rhino is dumb.

4. Yep, i mean from shooting not cc. Agree with all. It is surprising how resilient our light skimmers are sometimes. We should be able to shoot from inside when moving 12". What im talking about is a fast skimmer moving 12" should be harder to hit than a leman russ moving 6.

5. Agreed. Psy is cool but we can deal. Fortitude is broken... like badly broken! I with you Shadows, mat ward's upgrades are like a 12 year old wrote them!

6. If i may be so bold would you guys also post a comment to the title question if you havnt already? I know you all want to wait till 6th is in your hands but if you were forced to give an answer... Do you think 6th will help us vs GK? Yes or no answers are fine but a sentence or 2 stating why would be awesome.

Thanx for the great feedback!
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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 22 2012, 06:33

@Painjunky wrote:
6. If i may be so bold would you guys also post a comment to the title question if you havnt already? I know you all want to wait till 6th is in your hands but if you were forced to give an answer... Do you think 6th will help us vs GK? Yes or no answers are fine but a sentence or 2 stating why would be awesome.
I have absolutely nothing to base that answer on - I could answer yes or no and provide equally valid reasoning to both. The honest answer is - until the codex comes out or we get solid info about what changes will/won't happen we won't know.

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 22 2012, 08:46

No worries. Thanx anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 22 2012, 15:46

I'm gonna say yes, 6th will help us beat GKs. While I hate the GK dex I have a feeling that much of it may be with 6th in mind. While not a Ward fan, he did write the vanilla dex which isnt as bad as the GK one.

I think mission objectives, shooting and combat will really change. I think you will find most armies will experience a shift, with bad units suddenly being better and good units being powered down.

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 22 2012, 21:56



Aaah ha hahhaha ha haaa haaaa ha HA ! ... no


But More seriously - Essentially if our vehicles became a little tougher, and lances got a boost commensurate with their cost it would be a good start .

Sadly they do indeed appear to be a book designed to one-up DE in every meaningful way.

I can't really see what core rules changes will really give us the necessary leg up, perhaps a re-write of the DE book to bring it into line.

Necrons aint especially much fun either but at least we can beat them up in CC ...

With GK out there now you may as well kiss any delusions of winning tourneys with DE goodbye .

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 23 2012, 02:24

@Sorrowshard wrote:
I can't really see what core rules changes will really give us the necessary leg up, perhaps a re-write of the DE book to bring it into line.
The one rule from that early draft wishlist omgwtflol leaked rulebook where they had identical damage results float up the damage chart (including glances) would be pretty nice for us. That way even if you're glancing like a chump you can pump an odd four lances into a Rifle Dread and pop the cannons off - that would be pretty huge.

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 23 2012, 09:39

You know that one rumour about lances gettin unmodified rolls on the table makes a lot of sense to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 23 2012, 16:13

@Thor665 wrote:
@Sorrowshard wrote:
I can't really see what core rules changes will really give us the necessary leg up, perhaps a re-write of the DE book to bring it into line.
The one rule from that early draft wishlist omgwtflol leaked rulebook where they had identical damage results float up the damage chart (including glances) would be pretty nice for us. That way even if you're glancing like a chump you can pump an odd four lances into a Rifle Dread and pop the cannons off - that would be pretty huge.

it was called hull breach, and its true if that happened, we would be able to silence GK dreads really quickly (and I would return to using scourges w/ haywire blasters... need that last glance to pop a cannon off??? Hellow 2 haywire shots ;P )

and Ill go back to my comment. This rule would turn Crons into the new GKs. Since their Living Metal rule happens when you do it, making hull breaching them almost impossible unless through the massive weight of fire. Gks on the other hand would have to wait till their turn to stop shaken effects... which means shoot away till its gone for good Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 23 2012, 18:28

Good point about Necrons, they would certainly benefit strongly from that shift. I don't think that would make them the next Grey Knights though - their vehicles are easier to deal with now than GKs, and generally you're shooting at AV 11 or 12 which isn't too bad for us to generate Pens. So - yeah, it'd make them tougher, I don't think it'd make them GK level.

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 23 2012, 20:24

Also all their vehicles except for the barges cost an arm and a leg... Its bad when Eldar vehicles can be cheaper than yours...

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 24 2012, 05:58

IF, oh IF, the mule rules were the direction 6th is going, then GK would be ... just one more army. But, alas. So, let's see.
Change grenades against walkers. If I hit on WS not 6s with HW grenades, I don't care about Fortitude; it's a dead dread. And I could see that; it's a streamlining rule.
I *loved* the mule's Str6 CCW rule. But it adds complexity, so I think it's out. Of course, if POWER weapons are defined to act as Str 6 without codex rules such as PKlaw, then agonizers become less needed, oh, and incubi become terrifying to monstrous creatures. Of course, so do Harlie's...
The idea that lances never glance has merit, but does make the USR more complex, and makes LR's cry, so the Mon-Keigh factions will keep a blanket on that one.

If the vehicle rules change to make parking lots a tiny bit softer, we're good.
If the vehicle rules change to make fast open topped a tiny bit harder, we're even better.
And if the vehicle rules change to allow shooting from embarked troops at any movement, even with minuses to BS, Oh, Lordy. I'dl be really really, REALLY, happy to put a warrior squad on a raider with racks, and shoot BS2 after flat out. Hel*, BS 1! 22 shots, 18 rapidfire with re-roll to hit? (9 splinterrifles, 1cannon). Cry you DCA types.

If all monstrous creatures get some kind of ++? That makes the Talos and Chronos useful combat choices again. Talos vs Dreadknight with both having a ++? yes, please. Even a 5++ is good (c.f. 'Flickerfield').

So, yeah, just a few tweaks, because those changes are tweaks, in line with fluffy stuff, will help us against GK. So, we probably won't get them.


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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 24 2012, 09:56

Quote :
Of course, if POWER weapons are defined to act as Str 6 without codex rules such as PKlaw, then agonizers become less needed, oh, and incubi become terrifying to monstrous creatures. Of course, so do Harlie's...
You have misread, they are Strenght S not Strenght 6. They strike at strenght of the wielder.

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 24 2012, 10:02

Those rules were ultimately pants anyway.

I'm essentially praying for the lances = no modifiers rule

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 24 2012, 11:38

It certainly can't make us any worse.

It's a pity that evasion is rumoured to be gone from 6th as it would have help with our supposed speed advantage. Speed only works when you can move far enough or quickly enough to make a difference. On a 4 x 6 table current weapon ranges negate our movement.
No modifiers on the damage table for lance weapons would also help.

However the first codex that Ward writes after 6th will once again be the dex to top them all. Recently the guy has been like a spoilt child " my codex must be the best, it must, it must". He just can't help himself.


Heres the top 7 from the tournament I was at last weekend

1. Grey Knights
2. Sisters of Battle
3. Grey Knights
4. Blood Angels
5. Grey Knights
6. Orks
7. Blood Angels

I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to the suitability of Ward as a balanced codex writer.


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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 24 2012, 11:46

Ward has the 'Bond touch' with games/codii, currently he's like a rabid dog in a kindergaten, he needs to be stopped before he does to 40k what he did to warhammer.

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 24 2012, 12:15

Well he only screw Imperial Codexes, Necons are balanced rulewise, only background went to stinking hellhole.

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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 26 2012, 03:56

I'm guessing that 6th will help us vs GK mainly because...

As i said earlier GW will sell more models if they change the meta. The most likely way they will do this (and the way they have done it before) is by boosting or nerfing vehicles. For 6th i'm guessing they will pull back the dominance of vehicles/transports slightly so semi-mech and hordes lists are more viable. Less vehicles with fortitude and psy getting around will help us vs GK no end.

Im also thinking (and hoping) lances and some other weapon types like sniper will get a boost.



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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 28 2012, 03:57

If you use the logic that GW will alter the rules to make you buy more stuff. Then there is no reason to improve DLs.

I do hope mech spam dies though.
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PostSubject: Re: Will 6th help us vs GK?   Will 6th help us vs GK? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 28 2012, 07:17

@yogi wrote:
If you use the logic that GW will alter the rules to make you buy more stuff. Then there is no reason to improve DLs.

I do hope mech spam dies though.

I agree. The DL and sniper boost is for different reasons.
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