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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeTue May 31 2011, 15:28

Hello,

I am having a discussion with someone concerning the Dijinn Blade. My read of the rules, option one, is that it is a power weapon with 2 additional attacks. If the player using the blade rolls doubles on the extra attacks they hit the barer.

Option two is that it is an upgrade that can be taken with any other two weapons (husk blade and blaster) and concurs the +2 attacks to the weapon being used (the husk blade for example).

Thoughts?

Ben
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Urien Rakarth
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeTue May 31 2011, 15:35

The +2 attacks are specifically the Djinn blade's rules, trying to get another two Huskblade attacks would be a little wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeTue May 31 2011, 16:22

That's what I figured. Thanks for the clarification.
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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 07:42

Personally, I can see the argument for an additional +2 attacks, as it reads similarly to the old Servo-Arm wording, and you didn't have to select to use the servo-arm as your weapon that combat to get the bonus attack from it.
However, I'd probably use the "only if you actually wield it" version if I ever used it.

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abjectus
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 09:49

I read it as you get +2 attacks with power weapon, those attacks don't get any rules from the weapon you are using that turn.

so if you used venom blade, ccw, and djinn blade you would get attaks on profile+1(for 2nd ccw) that wound on 2+ and allow saves, and 2 strength 3 that ignore saves.

Or don't use venom blade at all that turn and make profile+1 power weapon, and 2 bonus power weapon all a strength 3(assuming something hasn't boosted strength of course).
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 10:34

This is wrong interpretation. It is written in the Codex that Djin Blade count as Power Weapon, even tho you pick it as additional wargear (so with CCW/pistol you have +3 attacks)

This is why whole thing is kinda comparable with Agoniser without upgrades, but with FC and +1 to strenght from drugs you may beat people with S5 ' o ' and also suck them with Soul-trap for further strenght bonus ' O '.

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 11:54

not sure what you are saying is wrong interpretation local_orc. There have been a couple interpataions in thread. An Archon that takes a djin blade ends up with 3 melee weapons, unless they swapped pistol for blaster, +2 bonus attacks would always be power weapon attacks(at models strength, 3 unless boosted by furious charge, drugs, soul trap, other str boost I forgot). I don't see any conflict between what you said and what I had posted just before it.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 12:54

IMHO those two (or three if You have additional CCW) attacks are made only if You use Djin Blade (ie make all 4-5-6 + 2 PW attacks).

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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 16:59

It all comes down to what they mean by "every round", whether that be "every round you're using it" (but at which point, why specify it? Of course you get the bonus when you use the weapon in a round of combat...), or "every round, regardless of whether you're using it or another weapon.
A loose comparison, as mentioned above, is the old servo-arm wording, in which it was a powerfist that you got an extra attack from, regardless of what weapon you were actually wielding. However, for simplicities sake, it's easiest to just use the "every round you're using it" definition. No point getting a reputation as an argumentative twat if you can't come to a consensus with your opponent.

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 17:48

now I see the difference in interpretation, it looks almost 50/50 when I reread the rules which they meant. The only if you use it version would be better for djin/huskblade combo. when facing muliwound, huskbalde with no worry about hurting self, and extra attacks vs 1 wound units, expensive archon that way though. won't make diffrence to blaster/djin build. Till they faq it I'll probably just ask opponent which they think at start of each game, and go with there interpretation.
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Xelkireth
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 17:49

My interpretation agrees with Aroshamash. An archon with an agoniser and a splinter pistol gets 5 attacks in close combat. An archon with an agoniser and a dijinn blade gets 4 attacks with the agoniser + 2 attacks with the dijinn blade (following the normal rules for wounding, not using the agoniser rules), ignoring the normal rules for only getting to benefit from one special close combat weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 20:39

I like to use a little common sense rather than exploiting every quibble of grammar written in the rules when equiping my Archon or any IC. In the example above, if you attack with your Agonizer and leave the Dijinn Blade in it's sheath, how would you get bonus attacks from it? Now, if you used your Agonizer this turn, you could use your Dijinn Blade next turn and get the bonus attacks from it in the turn you actually use it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 20:58

I had thought of it as floating in the air attacking on its own, like a dancing weapon from dungeon and dragons. Not really anything in codex to support that, just imagination getting away from me. What you said, Archon, is the most likely intent of designers, I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 21:05

@Archon wrote:
I like to use a little common sense rather than exploiting every quibble of grammar written in the rules when equiping my Archon or any IC. In the example above, if you attack with your Agonizer and leave the Dijinn Blade in it's sheath, how would you get bonus attacks from it? Now, if you used your Agonizer this turn, you could use your Dijinn Blade next turn and get the bonus attacks from it in the turn you actually use it.
Because the rules say you do. Every round of combat you get 2 bonus attacks.

No need to be snippy.
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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 12 2011, 18:19

As Xelkireth, the rules state that you get the extra attacks "every round". Not "only while wielding it", but "every". Personally, like Abjectus, I like to imagine it as an animated sword, floating around the owner, attacking who he attacks.

While I can see it being FAQ'd against this interpretation, there's absolutely no reason or logic in writing it this way if it wasn't intended to mean "every". You don't say "a model equipped with a power weapon ignores armour saves in every round of close combat", because that wouldn't read as "you must wield it to gain the benefit". As it currently stands, the Djinn Blade reads the same way. Whether right or wrong, the only explanation I can get purely from the wording is you get two bonus attacks, in addition to all others, but which don't benefit from whatever weapon bonuses you may be getting, like an Agoniser.

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 12 2011, 18:28

Oh. So I can combine those attack with... I dunno, Venom Blade? Sweet.

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Xelkireth
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 12 2011, 18:29

It would be your base venom blade attacks, followed by 2 power weapon attacks all at initiative. Don't roll doubles though. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 12 2011, 18:35

@Xelkireth wrote:
Because the rules say you do. Every round of combat you get 2 bonus attacks.

It's just like a Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion's Claw: he's str 6 not 8, even though he still has a chainsabre that gives +1 str. But since he doesn't use his chainsabre he doesn't get the bonus.
I think the INTENT was to have a floaty sword that adds extra pw attacks on top of whatever attacks you already have, but how the rules are written mean you have to use the Djinn Blade to get the bonus attacks.

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Xelkireth
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 12 2011, 18:52

I'm going to have to disagree. If I give my archon a huskblade and a dijinn blade, it specifically says I get 2 extra attacks. It does not say that it must be "wielded" or any wording non-sense similiar. It's a static buff.
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 13 2011, 06:01

As Xelkireth says, it states you "make two bonus attacks every round of combat". The Scorpions Claw example doesn't count, because the Claw doesn't state "the Exarch has S8 in every round of combat", just that it's a weapon that gives S8. A better example would be the Servo-arm, which is a powerfist that gives an extra attack every round, but while it's a weapon, you don't have to wield it to get the extra attack.

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 13 2011, 10:06

@Aroshamash wrote:
he Scorpions Claw example doesn't count

Yes it does, it is exactly the same. The Chainsabre entry states the bearer gains +1 str. The Djinn Blade says that the bearer gains two extra attacks with some extra rules. Will you now claim the Exarch with Scorpion's Claw - who also has a chainsabre - gets the strength bonus when fighting with the claw? Another example would be a character with both a power fist and a power weapon. The fist entry in the BRB states it doubles the model's strength, but only attacks made with it are at I 1. So could I then use the power weapon to strike at my normal initiative? Of course not.
Since the Djinn Blade IS a power weapon (see it's entry in the wargear section on pg 56 of the DE codex), it follows all the rules for fighting with weapons. You either use it and gain all of the special rules, or you don't use it and get none.

I really wish it would get FAQed or was better written, because I would love for the Djinn Blade to work as we all know how it should. The rules, sadly, do not support this.

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Xelkireth
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 13 2011, 10:22

@Radium wrote:
@Aroshamash wrote:
he Scorpions Claw example doesn't count

Yes it does, it is exactly the same. The Chainsabre entry states the bearer gains +1 str. The Djinn Blade says that the bearer gains two extra attacks with some extra rules. Will you now claim the Exarch with Scorpion's Claw - who also has a chainsabre - gets the strength bonus when fighting with the claw? Another example would be a character with both a power fist and a power weapon. The fist entry in the BRB states it doubles the model's strength, but only attacks made with it are at I 1. So could I then use the power weapon to strike at my normal initiative? Of course not.
Actually yes you could. You would make your normal power weapon attacks at initiative and regular strength, if you chose to use the power weapon. It's covered in the BRB when using two special weapons.

The reason why the dijiin blade ignores this is because of the stipulation in the rules for the blade itself. The dijinn blade buffs the character in the same manner that the servo arm does, using Aroshamsh's example. The dijinn blade specifically states that "bearer makes two bonus attacks every round of close combat". You don't have to wield the weapon due to it's arcane properties. Ergo, if you are wielding an agoniser and a dijinn blade, you elect which weapon you want to use, and then get the bonus of the dijinn blade.
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Radium
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 13 2011, 10:29

@Xelkireth wrote:
. The dijinn blade buffs the character in the same manner that the servo arm does, using Aroshamsh's example.

But that comparison falls flat because a Servo-arm is a piece of wargear that grants an extra attack, whereas the Djinn Blade is a weapon and therefor follows all rules for weapons on pg 42 of the rulebook. Better yet, it's a special close combat weapon, and if you were to carry another SCCW (Agoniser? Huskblade?) you'd not even get the bonus attack for having two CCW's Sad.

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Last edited by Radium on Mon Jun 13 2011, 10:45; edited 2 times in total
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Xelkireth
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 13 2011, 10:42

I was getting ready to launch into a college level debate over the word "bearer" and then noticed my main argument got shot in the foot when the last part of rules states "wielder".

*sigh*
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 13 2011, 11:01

@Radium wrote:
@Xelkireth wrote:
. The dijinn blade buffs the character in the same manner that the servo arm does, using Aroshamsh's example.

But that comparison falls flat because a Servo-arm is a piece of wargear that grants an extra attack, whereas the Djinn Blade is a weapon and therefor follows all rules for weapons on pg 42 of the rulebook. Better yet, it's a special close combat weapon, and if you were to carry another SCCW (Agoniser? Huskblade?) you'd not even get the bonus attack for having two CCW's Sad.

And the servo-arm is a powerfist. Plasma grenades also come under the heading "Weapons" in the codex, as does the Flip-belt, thus making them "weapons", so do you need to "wield" them in place of other weapons to gain the benefit from them too?

This is why I don't want to actually argue for either side, I'm merely pointing out that there are arguments favouring that position. I fully expect to see it FAQ'd against it though, and only give the attacks when wielding it. The wording simply isn't clear at the moment. Trying to definitively argue in favour of either side is pointless, because both sides have valid arguments.

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