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 When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?

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Cavash
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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 18:05

Err how are hellions starting with FC ? more easily than anything else ? str 7 spam laughs at fnp anyway , lets not talk about incinerators either .... (whatever the str 6 one is ...)


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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 18:12

As ever, Baron starting with Wracks, Haemy with Helions, exchange.
Yeah, S7 does laugh, S5 psy-bolters do not.

Quote :
lets not talk about incinerators either
Believe me or not - never saw a single incenirator, even on puruifiers , where its free.

P.S. Great Wolves on blog btw, i dont really like marines models but those ones really are great )
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Sami
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 18:57

@Azdrubael wrote:
As ever, Baron starting with Wracks, Haemy with Helions, exchange.

Just to point out that this is also how you start Incubi with 2 pain tokens, onlv replace Baron with a PGL-Archon. Saying that, Baron would be great if he could ride in a transport as he has a Phantasm Grenade Launcher!
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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 19:17

err look at the points investment/faff there ? and you are doing it to break even against halberds ?

pgl Archon = expensive and for his points hits like a dead fish
homo another 50 points , lets say 6 incubi another 132 then a flicker raider 70 points , thats what 350 points ?

So you can strike at the same time as purifiers ?! if you can get there , because with that much of a points sink in one place that has no ranged ability by shooting them down early he essentially takes the Incubi out of the game ,

IF you get there , sure you will wipe a unit of purifiers/GK , prob take a casualty or two in the process , then what ? your 300 + point pseudo death star gets shot off the table ?

better off spending those points on 2 units of blasterborn in Venoms , at least you have a chance to pop the transport and hose what drops out ?

Its better to come to terms with the fact that GK roflol Incubi off the table and stick to more efficient methods of dealing with the Silver menace

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 19:30

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Err how are hellions starting with FC ? more easily than anything else ? str 7 spam laughs at fnp anyway , lets not talk about incinerators either .... (whatever the str 6 one is ...)


ugh... played a palie list that the guys 2nd troop choice was a small 5 man pallie unit coming out of reserves with a LRC w/ 2 Incinerators... man that hurts...

But I digress, GKs are overpriced for their offensive output alone. I still dont see why you guys are so worried about them in close combat? Yes they can hammerhand, yes they have pointy sticks to make them faster, but their stats are mitigated by 1 attack base and average statline. Their strength lies in their shooting potential, and the amount of S6~S8 shots they can produce.

That being said Im not saying they cant be good in assault, but it normally requires their elite slot (pallies, purifiers, DCA) or the addition of a IC, but that can be said about any army Very Happy

@Sorrowshard. Yah man on a side note, Its sad to see such a beautiful painted and converted army being sold off. I must say Im sorry to see it leave the guy who did it.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 20:33

What makes the DEldar special is that they are versatile and you need to know what to use dependin on who you are against.
Against Tau, for example, your Wyches could have easily torn them to pieces, but out of experience i have learnt never to trust them against power armour, no matter how many attacks or saves you have.
What you need are Lances. Lances, Blasters, massed Splinter shots and more Lances. If you can't kill them with sheer weight of Shard shots then at least you can pick them off one by one with the Lance weapons.

Against this i would field an Archon with Combat Drugs, a Blaster, a Huskblade and a Night shield with some Incubi in a Venom. This tends to work as a good shock tactic as they can charge down the most fierce enemies, and, if not win, at least tear them to shreds in the process.
While this is happening and they begin to panic i would have two mor Venoms with Blasterborn come through cover, attempting to pick off as much as possible. I would then have numerous Raiders filled with Warriors eager to turn their foe into colinders with the amount of Splinter Weapons they will be taking.it could always be useful to take a few Scourges, just for the armour cracking power of thier Haywire Blasters and Heat Lances.
And If you do this then remember, try to utilise cover and let them come to you. Unless you are using Revers along with the first wave of Venoms to tie up the enemy before getting your Warriors into postion, setting up killzones to get the most potential wounds.

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Loki
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 21:31

As someone who has moved to Dark Eldar from Grey Knights I have few comments on this discussion. (apologies for the text wall)

Firstly I think comparing Wyches and Incubi to strike squads is fairly redundant. I don't see many people using strike squads at all unless its for warp quake protection from within a transport and they are not a close combat unit at all really so why compare them the Dark Eldar's best combat units ? Otherwise shouldn't we also be including Kabilite warrior squads vs Strike squads as well, something that probably wouldn't compare as favorably.

The main comparison on whether grey knights are better than Dark Eldar in combat should be comparing Wyches/Incubi with Purifiers. And I have to say point for point they both do OK, but only OK.

Incubi absolutely require an PGL or will get soundly beat if they have to go through cover or a sanctury and if not will win but be held in place and by the time they win the combat will have been whittled down dramatically.

Wyches at like for like points (probably 10 with aga vs 5 Purifiers, 3 halberd and 2 pyscannon) also do OK and will hold the unit in place but may lose.

The main problem with this for me is that while the Purifiers are the GK codex's best combat unit, something they are really rather good at, they are actually an amazingly good shooting unit as well, something the wyches and incubi suck at. Assaulting purifiers generally isn't the best idea as you will generally shooting them is a much more efficient way of removing them.

So in the end I think the answer is the Grey Knights in my mind are better in combat. I think if a unit were added into the DE elites slot with the purifiers rules/weapons you would see a lot of armies fielding units in the place of Blasterborn, which says a lot.

Oh and whoever said no-one uses incinerators that must be your local area. I nearly always used 10 purifiers with 4 incinerators in a Stormraven and they positively smashed face whenever they disembarked. Id say they were always my second most consistent unit ,they generally wiped out 10 man PA squads in one round of shooting. The only reason they weren't the most consistent was the stupidly broken psyfleman dreads. I also see a lot of Incinerators in other people armies, even more so now Necron scarabs have reared there ugly metal heads.

In general they are generally a very bad match-up and I have yet to lose a competitive game against DE using my GK. Having said all that there are very few armies that don't count Grey knights as a very bad match-up in the hands of an experienced general. That.s why so many tournament players use them, they don't have bad match ups, just less good match ups.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 22:12

@Sorrowshard
Why so negative man? At least you're not playing vs. Mech Guard.

Quote :
In general they are generally a very bad match-up and I have yet to lose a competitive game against DE using my GK. Having said all that there are very few armies that don't count Grey knights as a very bad match-up in the hands of an experienced general. That.s why so many tournament players use them, they don't have bad match ups, just less good match ups.

This is very true. If there are real tiers in this game, Grey Knights would be a top tier army easily.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 22:35

Lol, I can consistently beat mech guard, I can work foe side armour shots , stun and shake things, generally outmaneuver them, I dont think they are even as shooty as GK really, mech guard can be coped with, they have weaknesses we can exploit.

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 19 2012, 00:06

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Lol, I can consistently beat mech guard, I can work foe side armour shots , stun and shake things, generally outmaneuver them, I dont think they are even as shooty as GK really, mech guard can be coped with, they have weaknesses we can exploit.

You can cover save shots from Psyfleman but you can't do the same vs. Hydras.

The fact you can exploit side armor shots so easily vs. Mech guard makes me question your opponent's ability to cover their vehicles? You can easily negate side armor with terrain, other tanks or LoS positioning to make that side armor gain cover.

GK for me are a hard army to beat, but at least I can gain cover through repositioning. Everything else is just standard play.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 19 2012, 00:31

hydras can be suppressed and are less likely to penetrate, my stuff still gets a 5++ against them ? psfles are much worse.

I never said it is easy did I ? (go back re -read) ,but its a viable tactic, it IS a weakness of chim walls, which are very unwieldy too, even with cover you have a higher chance to inflict a result on av 10 than you do on uncovered AV12, simples , at one point half the people in my club were running mech guard of some description I'm not blowing hot air up your arse I have played ALOT of games vs mech guard in the hands of many players of varying skill levels.

I beat them consistently, I beat them at throne of skulls, it is a tough game, not easy but it is consistently doable, I do not feel I have the tools at my disposal to have that confidence going into a game with GK, I just feel handicapped and at a disadvantage, I have won about half of the games I have played vs GK maybe a few more,

DE whitewash paladinstars, but that is not a good army anyway.

Just to be clear IG and GK are tough, I would much rather play mech guard though.

I have never dreaded playing any army before I seem to subconsiously avoid playing them now as it is such an unpleasant experience.....

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 19 2012, 01:01

Just by the way you're explaining the situation, it sounds like impossible odds if both generals are the same skill level. Do you concur with this statement?

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 28 2012, 02:39

Against GK Malys has her place what with the psychic immunity and all that.

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 28 2012, 09:02

@Sorrowshard wrote:
DE whitewash paladinstars, but that is not a good army anyway.

Then you have never faced a well made and played draigo star then...

Draigo, karamazov, 10 fully diversified paladins plus a tech marine with grenades is massivley difficult to stop let alone finish. Backed up by psyriflemen or even worse - venerable psyriflemen and you have a force that basically can smash our transports with ease and not fear us in combat

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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 28 2012, 09:55

We can play this game forever dude, its a bit sad rly, I wrote that because I have faced and beaten similar armies to which you describe.

If you are struggling with that ? Well that puts us back to square 1, your turn....

I think you spout utter rubbish most of the time, are you even aware you just come accross as a keyboard warrior ?


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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 28 2012, 11:24

I am going to simply report this post - i am done taking your attacks


As for the keyboard warrior comment... Multiple tourney wins, won a GT in the past and have video proof of the last couple events (including a win overall)... I can prove I have active experience to back up my comments...

Just because you don't agree does not give you the right to have a go at others

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 28 2012, 11:34

But I was merely responding to your attack ? I can stick up for myself without crawling off to the mods, I'm equally fed up of you constantly trying to devalue my posts.


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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 28 2012, 11:39

What attack? I gave an alternate point of view. That's it.

It's easy I guess... I just won't respond to your posts again

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 28 2012, 11:50

I welcome constructive debate, maybe its the 'joys' of communicating via the internet.

For my part I apologise for any misunderstanding but it just seems you have set out to undermine anything I say.

The things I say are based on many many games and many years of playing wargames, they come from soaking up ad much info as I can by monitoring other DE players and discussing their experiences with them.

Ill continue this later, now=Avengers time




Flame Infraction Issued and offending content removed - Baron T

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 28 2012, 12:00

Again, was the name calling really needed?

I don't try and undermine what you say at all. I do seem to find very different things to you it seems when playing and so when I read a comment that runs counter to my experience I speak up, to help provide another POV and help the community to grow.

I too will apologize for any misunderstanding that has occurred.

Avengers was awesome... Saw it on Wednesday... One of the good things from living in Australia...

Back on topic now I guess

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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 28 2012, 13:01

Ok, I might be coming in a little bit late, but finding that the GK are a Death Star codex isn't very surprising. They've always been Death Star- friendly even going back to early 3rd Edition when they only came in Terminator armor and only if a psyker used a power or daemons (including the avatar) were on the table. Malys could be nice, but on the other hand I don't like the idea of using special characters and including her in a tournament list would be somewhat awkward.

I'd be inclined to play LOS games to keep my anti-tank away from things like Psyflemen, and just shoot everything else to hell and back like its a re-issue of the old joke about why the Deathwing only fears Guardsmen. Splinter racks might actually be useful here.
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PostSubject: Re: When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us?   When did Greynights Become Better IN CC Then Us? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 28 2012, 13:40

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN LOCKED.

WE CAN AGREE TO DISAGREE WITH MAKING IT PERSONAL.








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