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 Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?

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Beaviz81
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PostSubject: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 11 2012, 19:29

I'm just working on an angle. The Eldar has been established as able to breed with humans (I think), so my question really is if a half-breed could go unnoticed.

As for the source it's Necromunda, I regard it as canon enough, but here is sort of my source http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/fanatic/59sc.pdf look for Drak the Hunter.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 11 2012, 20:37

I dont think they are compatilbe at all.
They are very separate species and even between Eldar making new babies is a very long and complicated process.

I mean...Eldar poop with crystals! Thats indicating complete different pshysiology. Read Xenology.
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Beaviz81
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 11 2012, 20:42

WTF they must do what to ehm go to the toilet?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 11 2012, 20:50

There also used to be an Ultramarine Librarian who was part Eldar.

Eh, I think current fluff mostly rules it out, but they've done it in the past and are probably likely to do it again at some point.

All of the "half-breeds" I'm aware of though don't go unnoticed - so it might be possible but basically you'd be hiding your face (and ears) all the time and would probably be thought of as a mutation.

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Beaviz81
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 11 2012, 20:51

No the Dark Eldar frequently have sex with humans. As the Dais have the cheesy-looking human women onboard, so it should be possible.
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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 11 2012, 21:06

An Eldar can pretend to be a human quite well... when standing still. Their movement is much faster, more agile, more flowing than even the most skillful human being could pull off. If I remember correctly, this is described in Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy or Deathwatch RPG books.

So, unless the Eldar is willing to go through the excessive difficulty of slowing down and masking every single movement he/she makes, the cover will be blown very quickly.

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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 11 2012, 21:09

I sort of asked if a half-breed could exist undetected not about the physical skill-set of an Eldar.
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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 12 2012, 03:28

Yes, and we're saying that because of how they move, they'd have an incredibly hard time blending in. It's the equivalent of a fully-trained dancer and acrobat trying to blend in with a beginner class. Sure, they're physically similar, but their capabilities would stand out from a mile away, even if they're trying to hide it.

Secondly, I'm of the view that half-breeds are impossible between the two species. This isn't a standard fantasy setting, where Elves are just humans with pointy ears. Eldar and humans are two completely and utterly different species, with no common ancestry. Hell, Xenology even shows us that the Eldar have quintuple-helix DNA, and twenty chemical bases compared to our four.
We're physically similar at a short inspection, but the two species are utterly and fundamentally different, and so it would be physically impossible for them to cross-breed.

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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 12 2012, 06:42

I'm not too certain Xenology is canon, as it's noted to be out of print (whatever that means).

As for the Eldar being the Space Elves, but they are, they are still drawn out of the works of Tolkien, there is no denying that. Also the Eldar like the humans are a creation of the Old Ones, which likely means they can breed.

I sort of have gone for the difficult but not impossible angle due to them at times having sex with each other, but degenerate humans have been known to have sex with quite strange animals. It's my way of making that less disgusting and disturbing the sexual relations between humans and Eldar I mean both species, and not only the Dark Eldar have been known to keep sex-slaves of either Eldars for the humans, or humans for the Eldar.
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 13 2012, 11:40

Humans were not created by the Old Ones. Humans came into existance millions of years after the Old Ones died.
Secondly, even if they were, humans and chimps cannot interbreed, and we're nearly identical genetically. We come from the same root stock, and only diverged a few thousand years ago. Humans and Eldar, even if they were both created by the Old Ones, would be so genetically different that any possible offspring wouldn't properly form. Orks are also creations of the Old Ones, yet they cannot interbreed with either Humans or Eldar.

Thirdly, while the Dark Eldar probably keep human sex-slaves, and humans have had sex with many creatures over the ages, there is a very large difference between having compatible genitals and being able to conceive offspring. A human could have sex with most mammals on this planet, if they felt so inclined, but that doesn't mean they could conceive, let alone carry to term. To repeat, we cannot create a human/chimp hybrid, and they're one of the species most close to us genetically. To demonstrate how different human and eldar gestation is, Eldar actually require multiple inseminations to carry a foetus to term. That, if I recall correctly, was also stated in Path of the Warrior, not just Xenology. They are entirely different from us.

Genetics simply doesn't work along the lines of "if they fit, they can make a baby". I know 40k draws from Tolkein at times, but they've steered clear from half-breeds recently. There was one back in the Rogue Trader days, but it's a very different game now. Tolkein was the inspiration, but they've created their own race, one that isn't simply humans with funny ears. They are wholly and entirely different species.

If you're really set on having a half-breed, have them be the creation of a Haemonculi, grown in a vat. However, having them as having one human parent and one Eldar parent simply cannot work.

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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 13 2012, 19:27

@Aroshamash - but basic counter to common sense is rule of cool, and also GW has had canon cross breeds before.

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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 13 2012, 21:23

In one of the more recent books (I forget which) it said their body chemistry is toxic to each other, and hence cannot interbreed - they pretty much killed off the half breeds.
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Beaviz81
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 13 2012, 22:14

I don't think their chemistry can be toxic to each other, htey have sex, and without dying. I actually sort of assumed they were created by the Old Ones, as that was how it was in the old fluff, and it really seems disgusting that they have sex with each other if unrelated. Also dolphins are known to manage to breed with an amazing number of their relatives, and that prospect is about as pleasing to think about as DE-sex.
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 13 2012, 22:29

@SirTainly wrote:
In one of the more recent books (I forget which) it said their body chemistry is toxic to each other, and hence cannot interbreed - they pretty much killed off the half breeds.
They also killed off the Squats and the Zoats - it doesn't mean they're not perfectly fine things to have as fluff in armies or in fanfic though, the universe, at least for a time, happily supported them.
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 13 2012, 22:35

True, although personally I'd give a wide birth to sexy stories with either of those two! Wink

Personally I think half-breeds have a bit of a Mary-Sue quality to them, but that is MHO, feel free to have fun! Smile
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Beaviz81
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 13 2012, 22:40

Seriously what I planned was to have an half-Dark Eldar born due to a result of gang-assault on a human female. I don't see much Mary Sue or Polyanna there.
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2012, 00:56

Depends the story after that point, really.

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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2012, 02:13

I planned for a very dark Lucrecia I'm your father-moment.

Basically the girl born was raised to become an Imperial commissar, and her best freind a sister hospitallier noted that a strange spike in her genetic profile was extremely similar to the profile of a captured dark eldar warrior. So she learns about her origins, and the Dark Eldar really have added pleasure in telling her about the things he and his guys did to her mother just before he kills himself. It was just a thought, and I'm inclined to drop the story-line.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2012, 06:52

We have a mocking line among our national fun-stories subforum about psykers-pariah who went to Officio Assisonorum to became Kalidus Assassins, but before they finish training they decided to be Grey Knights. They were also females.

Bottom line is - dont break the rules of setting logic too much, otherwise whole story will crumble. It is difference between having entire setting to support and expand your story and writing short illogical sci-fi story.

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strange spike in her genetic profile
Are they magos-biologos also to hospitalier and comissar? Outside of Mechanicum cult there is precious little science knowledge. 40k is like middle ages in space, ignorance, zeal , overall sense of dread and inevitable end. Althou Schola Progenium is a kinda elite place, i somehow doubt there were tought such Omnissiah Mysteries as genetical analysis.
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Beaviz81
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2012, 07:10

The things with genology would likely be learned on a very basic level for the Sister Hospitalliers. If else, they would blood-poison everyone they operated on. Plus they have juvenat-implants, and I have dropped the story anyway. Too much negative feedback.

I sincerily doubt a Sister Hospitallier wouldn't notice a strange spike in some region at blood-works. A nurse today can, and at WH40K. they wat-grow replacement arms. You can't do that without knowing about biology, and the Sister Hospitalliers is the elite that shows apitude for both torturing and healing.
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2012, 11:56

@Beaviz81 wrote:
I don't think their chemistry can be toxic to each other, htey have sex, and without dying. I actually sort of assumed they were created by the Old Ones, as that was how it was in the old fluff, and it really seems disgusting that they have sex with each other if unrelated. Also dolphins are known to manage to breed with an amazing number of their relatives, and that prospect is about as pleasing to think about as DE-sex.

It's kinda supposed to be disgusting, they're the Dark Eldar. Humans definitely weren't created by the Old Ones though, we're far, far too young a race. Also, again, humans and chimps cannot interbreed, and we're far more closely related than the Eldar and humans would be. While dolphins can breed with their relatives, I'm assuming you're talking either about "family" relatives, or simply other dolphin sub-species. A species officially splits off from its evolutionary sire when the two cannot birth fertile offspring. Horses and donkeys are still at the stage where they can form infertile offspring, while humans have lost the ability to birth any kind of offspring in a species other than our own.

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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2012, 14:03

I guess this argument is the pleasure of those who likes something about the old fluff, where they could breed, and those who have read about a Necron Inquisitor. Yes it's extremely confusing. I don't know myself, I have decided to drop that line, that's basically why I ask certain questions. Better taking the criticism here than later. Then again Kroot are created by the Old Ones, their closest relative looks for me to be the ostrich. Would be interesting to find if those can breed, and actually funny.

Kroot Shaper: Now we have mated with ostriches so we can run really fast.
*Loud explosion* Everyone buries their head in the earth.
KS: WTF, they all hid their head. What a stupid idea. I should have known this was a trick when the humans gave us ostriches so we could run faster.
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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2012, 20:04

For Kroot, crazy evolutionary events aren't a result of interbreeding with other species, but devouring them. I really like their race, and see them as one of the greatest mercenary races for Dark Eldar to use, as with the guidance of a Haemonculus, they can become anything one would require. Feed them Sslyth, they become scaly, serpent-like and very tough. Feed them Eldar, they become latent psykers and something similar in terms of fear-inspiring as mandrakes (I really love that Sarah Cawkwell's short story), or just as twisted and cruel as the Dark Eldar, should they feast upon them as well.

But yeah, back to the topic. Human-eldar crossbreeds happened only in old fluff, where there was an Ultramarine half-Eldar librarian. Nowadays? Nope.

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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2012, 22:24

Love the idea of what a Haemonculus could get up to if he had a pet Shaper or just Kroot to play with - likewise 'Nids if he understood the biological 'machine code' that the Norn Queens program in and had the tech to replicate it (even by our standards I'd imagine it'd be risky, rare, unlikely or all three) - and as for the viability of half-breed offspring. Laying Old fluff aside - though on second thoughts possibly not needing to - assuming that Eldar/Dark Eldar and humans are entirely distinct species - which is a given unless theres some crazy fluff I missed... as did everyone else... ever - then the best you could get would be an infertile cross. Best case is the equivalent of a mule. Two distinct species are unable to breed to produce reproductively viable offspring, and things like Mules, Ligers... that other good example I've just forgotten, only occur in our universe by being the offspring of two incredibly closely related species [Tangent Alert: interestingly mules require the male parent to be a donkey and the female to be a horse, for obvious size-related reasons].
Relying on pseudo-old fluff - Xenology - the differences between human and Eldar DNA would make it completely impossible for any attempt at fertilisation to occur (based on the biological understanding we have in our current present day). Even assuming gametic fusion occurred (also unlikely) I wouldn't expect the human Mitotic systems to be able to handle Eldar chromosomes, and thats even if the cell had enough human genetic material to survive until then, cause transcribing Eldar DNA with Human cellular machinery.... (again assuming our current understanding of Biology is accurate enough) not gonna happen.

I hasten to add most of what I've said does set aside the fact that we're in a universe 40 millennia in the future, and more than likely a fair bit sideways.

Science might be able to do it though... if very very carefully controlled, manipulated, and the scientist had a full working understanding of Eldar & Human genetics, and sufficient time, resources and infrastructure.
So a Haemonculus then... (or possibly Fabius Bile)

Another addition to the thought process is the realisation that I've only actually been considering this from the perspective of the female parent being human. Now yes this is what the OP had envisaged, but it is potentially important. Assuming we take Xenology to still be correct - and as the most current fluff that describes Eldar DNA I'm gonna cite it as 'fact' - and the four human bases to be four of the twenty Eldar bases then it's entirely possible that an Eldar ovum could transcribe the genetic material of a human male's gamete. However I imagine the lack of genetic material contributed by the male human would lead to offspring that was at best disabled and most likely completely inviable.


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PostSubject: Re: Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans?   Can a Half-Eldar/Half-Dark Eldar go unnoticed amongst humans? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2012, 23:16

I actually had a storyline I was working with a friend, where a group of renengade mad scientists were capturing species, Tau, Human and Eldar and making hybrids from them, to join the galaxy together as one unified race. It's on Hiatus since we both ran out of ideas.
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