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Lady Malys
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PostSubject: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 06 2012, 13:00

So, one of the few things one most definitely cannot do in the Dark City is use psychic powers Very Happy Their use is forbidden, but is it simply no longer possible?

I'd say that there are very few who could teach how to use psychic powers, so if a Dark Eldar had such potential it would not be realised. Mucking about with Farseer bones in bloody puddles aside, it's not usually very practical to adopt a teach yourself view to something that carries a penalty of daemonic incursion if you get it wrong Razz

I was thinking that, since Eldar have such a strong psychic heritage, maybe there are occasional Dark Eldar born who possess remnant psychic gifts, a bit like being born with an extra digit or gill slits. A sort of throwback to more psychic times. Does this make sense, or does it seem daft? I don't think it matters to the overall scheme of things, because there won't be a realistic way for them to become psykers, but I find if interesting.

On a side note, Lady Malys' detractors like to imply that she has a degree of psychic ability*, so saying that someone might be a little bit psychic is most definitely not a compliment ...



*Of course not. The very idea.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 06 2012, 15:03

I dont see why there wouldnt be a few DE that have latient Psyker powers, it is in their genes after all (just highly degredated) The question then goes for are these kids rounded up and killed like mutants on an imperium world??? Or are they weeded out as their powers develop, and people take notice??? Some good questions, but Im sure we will never know GWs answer (which just means you can make your own up)

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Beaviz81
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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 06 2012, 16:10

The Dark Eldar have equal potential for being psykers as their Eldar kindred. Hm maybe Malys should have posted this one of the Eldar-thingy. Doesn't matter though. From what is written is that they choose to never tap into it. They are far more disciplined than the humans, so they can hold even Alpha Plus psychic powers under control AKA keeping them from manifesting.

As for Malys and a certain Hellion glancing into the future, doesn't part of their wardrobe tend to be bones and/or other things from an Eldar Farrseer?

Plus the Dark Eldar is nothing if not rule-breakers, so I can perfectly see a Dark Eldar choosing to have it's powers activated, the kicker is that the person would have to flee Commorragh or be regarded as Vect's newest plaything.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 06 2012, 16:51

Well Malys gets her powers from the crystal heart (some speculate its the heart of the Laughing God) while Baron Sassypants get his from the bones of a Farseer. The thing becomes is it a control issue, or has their psychic ability atrophied over time??? Personally I would say the latter, as if it was the former Im sure several of Vect's opponents would of used this to their advantage by now (ex. walks a psker into Vect's throne room... bam chaos spawn)

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 06 2012, 17:03

All Craftworld Eldar are psychic, altough only the one son the Witch Path actively use and develope their psychci abilities. The rest only use their psychci ability for things like short-range telepathy and controlling psychically reactive technology.

Dark Eldar's psychic abilities are stated to have been atropied, but I'd imagine they still have limited but very weak psychic abilities (like how most humans in 40k are technically psykers, but so weak they can't manifest their powers in any noticeable way). With proper training they might be able to improve their abilities, but considering how dangerous use of psychic powers is for Eldar, it would probably end badly.

Craftworld Eldar can only safely use the full extend of their powers when they dedicate their being to the task, and even then they use ghosthelms and runes of warding to shield themselves from Daemons. Dark Eldar lack those items and, more importantly, usually lack the patience to spend decades or centuries meditating and learning to safely harness their powers.

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 06 2012, 18:24

Dark Eldar in Commorragh can use their minds as psychic conduits to try and gain a better insight or use psychic powers very briefly. However most don't survive the ordeal as their souls are eaten by Slaanesh and those who do are taken very quickly by Vect's guys.

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 06 2012, 20:17

I think they may have some that manifest. It would explain here the Haemies get the stuff to make Anti-psyker stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 06 2012, 21:20

The atrophy of psychic powers is probably more of nobody remembers the training to expand them, a dark eldar that left the dark city to join a craftworld ( and was actually allowed in) could end up on path of seer eventually, but there would be nobody to train him/her in the dark city. So power kept suppressed do to danger. old codex had a single piece of pychic wargear, with note about how it was dangerous to train psychic abilities in the dark city, since it makes the user's soul taste better to other eldar. Explains why vect rounds them up to, they taste better. The archon in one of the fluff blurbs found texts on sorcery, so if a dark eldar has a source for knowing what to do and puts in time they can be a psyker, few try since its so dangerous for many reasons.

The baron is secure enough in his position to risk use of psychic powers, but nobody to train him to use them enough to count as a psyker in rules. I would not be surprised if in next codex he was a full psyker, like how lysander went from sergeant in 3rd to captain now. The 11 years till next codex would be enough time for the baron to self teach himself (or interrogate captured warlocks) something I figure.
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Lady Malys
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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 07 2012, 02:42

I'd agree that they lack the runes to use psychic powers safely, as well. I recall a case in the new Codex where someone tried making a pact with Daemons that ended with their shall we say untidy demise. There are normally considerable safeguards put into psychic study on the Craftworlds, which I hadn't thought enough about - as you say it's not just the knowledge that's lacking, it's the tools.

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 07 2012, 12:03

I'm siding with the "atrophied, but still theoretically possible" theory. You've got to remember that 10,000 years isn't that many generations in the Dark Eldar lifestyle, and there are apparently several Dark Eldar still alive who lived through the Fall, so there would be some who have strong psychic capabilities, they just wouldn't be willing to use them.
The vast majority of Dark Eldar though probably only get vague premonitions, or minor telekinisis, nothing more. The act of feeding on pain would also be a psychic act, as it doesn't seem to rely on technology to happen.

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Torpedo Vegas
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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 07 2012, 20:17

Consider the amount of training that Seers and Bonesingers have to go through to use their psychic powers. While Eldar are all latent psykers (If you take the Path of the Eldar series as canon), that doesn't mean that they can all shoot lightning bolts out of their hands and melt your brains from birth. It requires years of training to do so.

I'll jump on the "they can but don't know how to" bandwagon. The probably still can use their powers if one of them was crazy enough to try and learn how to (assuming doing so didn't draw the attention of Slaanesh and the psyker in question had their soul ripped out through their genitals.)

One more thing, Harlequins have Shadowseers, and Harlequins recruit from all branches of the Eldar Race. Not definite proof but it at least shows that there MAY be canon Dark Eldar psykers.

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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 07 2012, 23:35

I'd like to add that those living in the dark city go through rigorous training at birth and use combat drugs to quell their psychic abilities.

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 07 2012, 23:46

Haven't heard that before, source?

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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 07 2012, 23:53

Path of the Renegade. Once that book comes out in the open I feel a lot of people's questions will be answered.

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PartridgeKing
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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2012, 22:31

@ Sky Serpant

Are we assume it's not available yet? For some reason the Black Library has it listed as March 2012, and yet I received and finished my copy almost two weeks ago?


If said information is not officially out and potentially problematic if disseminated here prior to its official release I'll refrain from adding to the discussion until then.
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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21 2012, 17:28

i was going to add that the story telling/plays that harlequins perform would have a strong psychic presence, wether the Dark Ones realise that or not... being so long since detached from open psychic expression they might not notice that in part the euphoria they experince during dramatic reinactments is to do with the halequin dancers themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21 2012, 17:35

Humans were able to evolve psychic powers in twenty thousand years in the material world (it might have even been less than that).
I don't see why a psychic race living inside the Webway, which hides them partially from the Warp, and has been supressing thee abilities would be able to use them. The genes would most likely be dormant in few, meaning that they only have the capability to pass them on and not utilise them, and completely non existant in others.

They probably would have evolved slighttly in this time, as if having a psychic gene could potentially kill them then all of those who had an active gene that allowed them to utilise the power would simply kill them, preventing them from passing this gene on.

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21 2012, 18:24

A Harlequin feared enough will be able to get away with that, as even Vect himself would hesitate to go up against a Harlequin. Heck the Soltaires are always granted access, and I don't know anything that states they must not be psychic. Though I wouldn't recommend writing about one, as they sort of doesn't talk much.
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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21 2012, 18:31

There is a short story about an Ork Kommando where no speech other than 'Waaagh!' is written. I cannot remember what it is called. It is in Fear the Alien, so a short story about one could work.

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 22 2012, 10:50

Taking it back to the original comment, I would just like to add that the new codex clearly states that most Dark Eldar are test tube babies created by the Haemunculi. If this is the case I would say it would be quite easy for Vect to force the Haemunculi covens to eradicate the psycher gene in the lab babies, assuming that is that psychic probability is a genetic thing of course. Even the trueborn are probably popped out by the more successful test tubers so if you trace it back down the line the number of psychic capable Dark Eldar would now be very limited and Vect would probably be watching the talented exceptions very closely. Thats my take on it.

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 22 2012, 12:03

To my knowledge though, psychic ability seems to be a far, far more complex issue, genetically, than just "turn the gene off". Given that the Imperium has been unable to create a psyker breeding program, as it were, and that the mutation pops up randomly, and at a large range of strengths, we can only assume that psychic ability is due to the combination of an incredibly large number of genes.

Of course, that's human genetics, not Eldar, and without DE levels of technology, but I doubt it's so simple as the Haemonculi simply "flipping the switch". After all, we know the Dark Eldar make use of mental conditioning and drugs to minimise their ability, something that wouldn't be necessary if they could be born without it.
They might be able to stunt their development in-vitro, but they aren't capable of removing it entirely.

Personally, I prefer the idea that all DE have a miniscule amount of psychic talent, enough to consume emotions, in any case, but that they can't implement them on a larger scale. So, they can do their soul-feeding, maybe even lift tiny objects (in the "strongest" of them, but they'd struggle even with that), but certainly not the mind-reading, or shooting lightning or anything like that.

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 22 2012, 20:28

For what it counts, in Path of the Seer it is shown that there is a part of the eldar brain that specifically deals with psychic powers, and a punishment for a seer that misuses their powers in a spectacular manner is to have that portion removed, which takes away their abilities.

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 30 2012, 17:43

no one has mentioned mandrakes? although wether or they are of the eldar species isnt stated (although hinted) they live partly in a shadow dimension(5++), and they '*channel* preys stolen *energy* into blasts of freezing ice' ... clearly *psychic* attributes.

beastmasters- 'excuse me, sir? you claim to have tamed creatures from a nightmare dimension without some psychic trait? please sir... dont insult my intelect with the idea that whip alone is enough to control fiends from hell...'

the cronos-not-your-average-psychic-parasite engine and its spirit eating ways. thats some techy specs for a bio-mechanical enginieered 'masterpiece' ...man.

i like the idea that the dark eldar are in intense denial of their inherit psychic traits, hence the withered hag demon seen within by one with spirit sight. that it manifests in other ways only goes to further the egocentric contempt for one and all i see in the eldar race. im not just *so good* ... im *there is no better...really*

i find lots of the arcane wargear to be very 'psychic' in its nature. users of magickal items often need to be of magickal persuasion.

i think the power over pain thing is more of an ego derived trait rather then metaphysical. dosnt mean i discount the idea.

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 07:09

Although I can't for the life of me remember where I saw it (it might have been in one of the Eldar codexes, I just reread through the 3rd and 5th edition codexes and can't find it), there is a blurb about DE Psykers. It said something to the effect that there are DE Psykers, but as soon as they are discovered they are put to death or exiled, as to leave them alive would be to invite disaster because of their proximity to the Warp, and would call the attention of She Who Shall Not Be Named.

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PostSubject: Re: Forbidden, or Impossible?   Forbidden, or Impossible? I_icon_minitimeSat May 19 2012, 11:01

@Beaviz81 wrote:
A Harlequin feared enough will be able to get away with that, as even Vect himself would hesitate to go up against a Harlequin. Heck the Soltaires are always granted access, and I don't know anything that states they must not be psychic. Though I wouldn't recommend writing about one, as they sort of doesn't talk much.

Actually that's exactly what it states, more even. Solitaires are created by an Eldar undertaking the ritual of initiation into the Harlequins, but losing their spirit in the process. They have no psychic power, and psychic powers simply don't affect them at all. They are soulless. You can't read their minds, track or sense them, nothing. They're like a Pariah without the pain-aura. I imagine Solitaires to be one of the only things which could ever creep a Dark Eldar out a little.

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