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 Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?

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Caldria
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PostSubject: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 01 2012, 21:01

Hey there. Until a few days ago, I hadn't once thought of using any coven units. I'd preferred to keep my army as "normal" dark eldar. While I still dont wish to use coven units, I've recently begun thinking seriously about adding 1-3 haemonculi to support my Archon, and replace my succubus.

Now I know haemonculi are great for super cheap HQs. But I was wondering if I could perhaps use at least one of them as a more "solid" HQ choice - kit him out fully etc.

I realise the haemonculi will always only be support. What I want to try is have at least 1 haemonculi or haemonculi ancient, fully kitted out with cool arcane wargear to do some cool things and support, while the other 1-2 can spread pain tokens.

So basically like... a pseudo/lesser Librarian or Farseer.

Is this viable? or is it stupid do kit the haemonculi out with anything but the basics (Note, I do plan to have liquifiers on them)

Also, Is the haemonculus ancient worth it to fill this role? or just a normal one. And would the haemonculus be at all viable in close combat, 4T is nice, and 3W. But again, 3S and 6+ SV is very meh...

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 01 2012, 21:24

Sadly, most Coven wargear is expensive and unlikely to make an impact. As for the Ancient: viable, but not competitive. IMHO just stay happy flaming things, and enjoy the cheap Pain tokens.

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 02 2012, 01:15

I'd like to point you over there --> http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t1786-best-load-out-for-haemonculus#19024

Long story short: No, the ancient is not worth it. No, Haemonculi will never become combat monsters. But, there are some good items of arcane Wargear. But they are few, situational, expensive and one shot, so they are definitely no game changers.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 02 2012, 08:21

Shattershard and liquifier both can be a really good thing for heamy, both are cheap and extremely effective.
Once i killed half of Paladin unit with single shattershard, who deepstriked and fired instead of running.
It was nice to kill almost 300 points of enemy most elite unit with 15 point flamer )

As for ancient...i dont know, thing is - he dont have any good protection from CC, whatever combat upgrades he take.T4 6+ FnP isnt that shiny. Vexator mask is laughable, it is pity they cant take Clone Field.
I once thought of idea as taking him with Grot unit and to scare my opponent with prospect of crazied Grots if they try to single out Haemy, but i dont think its really worth it, too random.And right now Grey Knights will simply murder Grots in a single phase, along with Haemy.

I find one somewhat capable Haemy Ancient Loadout , 115 pts.
Power Weapon, Soul Trap , Shattershard. With a unit of wracks or grots, we just go hunt squads with IC and hope to vaporise them with Shattershard and Furious Charge them if that fails, for Soul. Then we have a nice S6 power weapon. Thats cheap enough and somewhat effective against any enemy. You can also cut to cost by throwing away Ancient Upgrade.

This loadout showed itself good in 1.5k and less points, where targets where mostly librarians, rune priests and farseers (and haemies).

If you want thematical capable in CC and overcosted haemy - look for Urien. He is completely unkillable in the units of wyches or brides due to Clone Field and Shard Nets, T5 and regen.

I also somewhat like Casket of Flensing, due to the sheer fact that neither you nor your enemy will know what to expect from this thing.It may be either S1 Ap6 , or S6 Ap1 )) And half of the time it have AP3 or less, which means marines dont have saves.
Its not something i'd take on Tournament naturally. It also looks good on Urien, with his BS5 most of the shots you fire from it will land.
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 02 2012, 14:22

As said above liquifiers or shattershards are the kit to take on Heami's. With these they can be used for drive by flaming as support for wyches.
Their best use is as a PT dispenser and opening up super cheap units of wracks as objective holders.
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 02 2012, 15:51

I plan on using liquifiers on all my haemonculi yeah. And a shattershard on one.

I'm wondering: I have 2 squads of 9 wyches, with hekatrix (agoniser) and razorflails. I'd like to put my 2 haemonculi in those 2 squads. Both for the Feel no Pain at the start, as well as to support the wyches in combat. With the flamer before they charge mostly, but would they haemonculi be able to at least help out in the close combat also?

I know he's nothing like a succubus or archon in close combat, but would putting him in close combat with the wyches be worse than say, not putting him in the combat. Surely the little extra help (besides the flamer and pain token) in close combat from the haemonculi will help the wyches?

I realise they dont have fleet. so unless I dont need fleet to charge, the only way the haemonculi can support the wyches in actual combat is to flame the unit they want to charge before charging, and then splitting from the group once the wyches charge.

If fleet is not needed to get withing charge range. Then I'd like to use the flamer to soften them up, and charge him with the wyches.

Would all this be viable?

Also, as a sidenote: My archon is currently with a huskblade/soultrap combo, using a clonefield with 9 bloodbride + shardnet shenanigans.

I'm thinking of switching that to a shadowfield + PGL with 5 incubi instead. Does this change do nothing at all, help, or hurt my overall plans for using the haemonculi?

thanks for the assistance thus far. Its helped out quite a bit, as my view of the haemonculi before was rather skewed.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 02 2012, 16:34

the problem with him charging with the wyches is he can easily be picked out, and thats an easy 2 wounds done, as well as making the wyches lose combat (if up against combat weapon squads) if it was like tacticals and the ilk, as long as they dont snuggle a PF up to the guy, Im sure he will be fine.

Personally I use haemies with wracks and give them a power weapon and liquifer. FC gives him a decent attacking profile, and he gives the wracks some MEQ bite

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Andy140491
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 02 2012, 21:46

This has actually given me a brilliant idea.... i play an eldar player alot and he always fields eldrad with a huge unit of warlocks.... he always casts to re-roll failed saves and i can never kill the damn things.... but with shattershards at hand 'que hysterical evil laugh' they shouldnt be much of a problem any more!!... i dunno why ive never fielded any haemonculi before? :S.... oh and i know this is very off topic but can any1 answer why grotesques LD is only 4!!
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 02 2012, 21:56

Well, up until a few days ago, I've not once thought of using haemonculi, I didn't like them. But I've since changed my mind.

and I've decided to go along with 2 of them. both with liquifiers, one with shattershard. They'll go in with my 2 squads of 9 wyches.

As far as the grotesques Ld is concerned. I believe it's most likely because they are largely unthinking creatures. While Orks have a lower than average Ld when not in a mob, they are relatively stupid, Grotesques are essentially zombified or braindead.

But other than that, I dont really know. 4 is incredibly low for Ld ^^
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 02 2012, 22:23

IMHO Grots should have fearless. They just don't care about anything other than ripping everything apart and their special rule shows that. So I don't know why they are LD4.

But hey, it's world where Ork Nob (stat-wise) can have a freaking Ordnance gun (SAG).

I actually like Ancient upgrade. It add a lot of USEFUL stats (like +1 WS, cut wounds by 1/6 in most cases). I can swallow 80 points since 50 point guy is soooooo hepless in CC...
I mean not every army need Archon.

Note that I use Wazdakka in my Ork army (earlier double Warpheads lol), guy cost about 80 points too much in my opinion. But hey, I've followed simple advice - "SUCK-IT!".
Because points spend on unit don't matter when You put models on table.

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Cailos
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 02 2012, 22:56

The reason for the Low LD on Grots is because if you don't have a HQ with them they will go crazy and leave the board. (After mauling whatever is in range.)
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 03 2012, 08:17

Low LD is pretty much their restriction and encouragment to take them with Coven HQs/Cronoses , cause with them if they earn at least one pain token they are Fearless and LD4 doesnt really matter.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 03 2012, 19:45

and it makes sure you have a babysitter with them, so you just dont charge 3 squad into the enemy without the risk of losing 9 KPs (3 for the transports, 3 for the squads, 3 for the haemies attached)

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thecactusman17
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 04 2012, 05:49

A Haemonculous has only three duties: Give something a pain token, fulfill a mandatory HQ slot, and please don't give the opponent a free battle point or killpoint.

In short, I think that Haemonculai should never be kitted out with anything, and in fact should remain on store shelves in favor of models that are actually fun to play with. But if you simply must take one, make it as cheap and unobtrusive as possible.
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 04 2012, 17:08

I figured as much. my original hopes for them are somewhat tempered now though : P

So I'm treating them as a sanguinary priest somewhat, just a feel no pain dispenser in the start - for my wych squads.

each has a liquifier, and one as a shattershard (I wish we could get more of these - as I like redundancy in my units, more than one to do the same job in case one dies)
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 04 2012, 18:13

You know, I think Blaster Archon may be really good alternative in mech-spam armies. BS7 Blaster, 25 points more than naked Haemonculus...

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 04 2012, 18:15

@Local_Ork wrote:
You know, I think Blaster Archon may be really good alternative in mech-spam armies. BS7 Blaster, 25 points more than naked Haemonculus...

Yeah, but it's a shzme you can't take a heat lance for him. In the case of the Blaster Archon, he's great but his weapon is itself the bottleneck to his full potential. No AP1 means that he rarely gets serious damage out of it.
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 04 2012, 18:27

Also, Blaster Archons don't seem exciting enough, I think you get more out of them both fun and gameplay wise by making them close combat specialists. With the haemonculi there to support him.

Also, I'm unsure what constitutes a mech spam? Because most dark eldar lists, bar webway ones, Require a lot of transports just to get our troops to their intended targets in relative safety.

If the venom spam is the only realy thing that's considered a mech spam, I don't think I'd ever do that. It seems far too boring to have 10 + of the exact same vehicle and troop combination all on the field.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 04 2012, 19:18

But it works for many races, including us Smile

Archon is ok CC fighter even without CC junk. In list that don't even care about pain tokens, not CC (Shooting Kabal) he is pretty useful, unlike "dead weight" Haemunculus.

Unless You MAKE him work for You (FNP on "shoot me" squad in cover is gold).

Outside "pew-pew" lists, Haemonculus may be useful "utility guy". He still can dish some PW attacks and with using actual tactics (Like this) *You* can allow him to survive while beating "scrubs".

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser?   Haemonculus - More than a pain token dispenser? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 06 2012, 05:28

+1 for ork, for a shooting army, the best HQ is probably the Archon w/ Blaster. Getting the Haemie does nothing for you other than giving one a unit a pain token and being cheap as dirt. Atleast the Blaster Archon can give you another accurate blaster shot. Sure AP2 hurts it, but its still the best AT we got, might as well load up on them Razz

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