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Black_pheonix
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PostSubject: first ever dark elder list   first ever dark elder list I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 21 2012, 13:38

hi there everyone can i get some input about my first ever dark elder list

1500
Archon Shivana ghosteplate blaster haywire 95
(meh, I know archons are "CQC" characters but I like the look of rifles and since GW brilliantly denied archons the ability to take shard carbines I am sticking with the blaster)

4 trueborn carbines dracon PGL venom NS 158
Shivana's bodyguard they fly up to some weak support asset and (hopefully) kill it

10 trueborn 4 blasters dracon PGL raider NSFF 285
10 trueborn 4 blasters dracon PGL raider NSFF 285
these guys fly up and take out enemy armor and hopefully survive a bit after that

10 warriors shredder splinter cannon sybarite PGL raider NSFF 210
10 warriors shredder splinter cannon sybarite PGL raider NSFF 210
objective claimers and infantry shredders

5 warriors shredder sybarite venom NS 125
5 warriors shredder sybarite venom NS 125
wild card units unguarded objective claimers etc.

also the fluff that i am writing for these guys says they are an elite and (according to dark elder standards) disciplined force so the SGT.s are almost certainly staying
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: first ever dark elder list   first ever dark elder list I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 21 2012, 16:37

Again Welcome to the Dark Kin!!! Lets see how I can help you build the list you want. So we have a 1500 pt elite shooty list.

HQ: So you want a shooty HQ, you have two choices. The cheapest being an Archon w/ Blaster. Its a good solid choice, and adds to your AT unit. I would drop the excess upgrades though, as he really wont be taking much fire anyway, and if his venom goes down, he is good as dead anyway.

The problem is you want him with some AI Trueborn, so your best bet would be Duke Slicuss. He (or she as your count as) will give those Trueborn a 3+ poison, which helps them alot. On top of that you have the option to DS, which gives the feel of an "elite" style entrance. i think sliscus will fit your army feel well.

Elites: Ok... you want an Elite army. So alot of trueborn then huh??? The problem here is you have so much wasted points here its not funny. Let me go through your choices first and Ill explain.

First off, your you dont need Dracons. They add nothing but an extra attack, which is something your Trueborn shouldnt be doing. On top of that the PGL is useless as well, as again if you get assaulted, you are dead anyway. Those alone save you 30 points a squad, which add up to 90 pts from your elite choices, and 80 from your troop choices. Thats 170 points, and easily another troop choice.

Secondly you have 6 extra guys on your AT trueborn. DE dont work like Space Marines or guard. These Trueborn squads are made to kill tanks, yet you have 6 guys per squad that cant do anything to your intended target. We cant waste points on extra wounds. Those 12 extra Trueborn are 144 points!!! again thats another troop choices wasted on "extra wounds" We are so fragile that those extra wounds are just a point sink. Your better off with more target saturation.

Troops: Shredders are the absolutely worse weapon in our Dex. There is no reason to take them, ever. Your better off with the blaster. Now while you might see this as making them dual purpose, its not about that. In a 10 man squad, that blaster is almost a guarenteed kill every shooting phase. In a 5 man squad (as you have in your venoms) those shoot at tanks, giving you more AT, since 4 rifles arent going to be doing much against troops anyway.

Now your complete lack of Heavy Support baffles me. In this edition you need AT, and the Ravager is by far our cheapest source of it. Your 13 lances arent going to do much, especially since most are short range. You really need some to help pop those tanks to allow your Venoms to chew into infantry like they are suppose to.


Ok, so lets see what I can do for you, while keeping the same feel of your army. Like I said I think you will like sliscus alot, so Ill through him in there, but again you could always use an Archon w/ Blaster (that would probably be more competitive, but atm who cares about that) and use the points elsewhere.

150- Duke
204- 7 Trueborn w/ 2 Splinter Cannons, 5 Shard Carbines; Raider w/ Flickerfields, Shock Prow
173- 4 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters; Venom w/ Extra Splinter Cannon
125- 5 Warriors w/ Blaster; Extra Splinter Cannon
125- 5 Warriors w/ Blaster; Extra Splinter Cannon
125- 5 Warriors w/ Blaster; Extra Splinter Cannon
125- 5 Warriors w/ Blaster; Extra Splinter Cannon
125- 5 Warriors w/ Blaster; Extra Splinter Cannon
115- Ravager w/ Flickerfield
115- Ravager w/ Flickerfield
115- Ravager w/ Flickerfield

Total: 1497

This gives you a good "elite" unit in the form of Dukes unit, good source of AT from the Blasterborn, 3 Ravagers, and the Warriors, while your AI from Dukes unit and the 5 venoms.

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Black_pheonix
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PostSubject: Re: first ever dark elder list   first ever dark elder list I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 21 2012, 17:19

hey there thanks for all the input as for the lack of ravagers I was figuring that since the local mecha-meta isn't so much eleventy billion plazorbacks but but more two rhinos and a death star land raider I could drop the raider with my raiders and true born and then go blast termies and all. of course this is my first dark elder list so what do I know.

as for the HQ I disdain special characters since I find the most enjoyable part of the hobby creating an armies background and story. their heroes and villains like this http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t2253-help-wanted-with-witting-fluff-for-the-kabal-of-the-black-pheonix

now having said that it's not so much that I want a "shooty" lord but rather one with a rifle since I just find it looks better than a sword and a gun. on that note may I ask why in the name of all that is unholy can archons take blasters and not shard carbines? it's not like the whole splinter weapon entry in the codex says that many dark elder become addicted to watch splinter weapons work so you'd think that that could be an archon no? still I can see why a blaster would a somewhat horrifically bad weapon for archon so perhaps I could make some sort of "splinter smg" to count as a splinter pistol and agonizer, any suggestions on how to start?
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: first ever dark elder list   first ever dark elder list I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 23 2012, 17:13

The reason I choose to talk about Duke is I think he would fit the list well. He is a shooting character at best. Yes, he only has a blast pistol, and yes, he can be good at assault, but his main use is to boost a squad's shooting capactity (and the DS option makes your army look more "elite" because we all know only either fools or badasses deepstrike Razz ). Also remember you can use a "count-as". Pretty much you make your background whatever you want, and just use Duke's rules. Also Duke doesnt have a model currently, so you can convert to your hearts content Wink

But also remember you dont have to stick with that. DYI Archon is a decent choice, and like I an Archon w/ Blaster is just as good. But if I remember right isnt your Archon an ex-Farseer??? Im pretty sure he/she would want to be a force multiplier, since that is what Farseers do for Craftworlders, and act as a shadow of their former self.

*Edit: Sorry, Ex-Autarch. Just re-read your fluff post. But my point still stand*

Anyway to the list. The reason for the Ravagers is even if they only have 2~3 rhinos and a Land Raider, you still need alot of AT to bring that down. People who have never played Eldar talk up Dark Lances, but in reality we are shooting super expensive, shorter ranged missle launchers at vehicles. On average it takes 3 Dark Lances to get 1 result on the damage chart (3x.666x.5=.999), and then even that isnt guarenteed to be the result you wanted. Ravagers are our cheapest form of AT, and are a bang for their price. After their tanks are dead, you can then use them to ID characters (if they get allocated to them) and they still take out 2 marines a turn on average, which isnt bad after you have blown up 250 points worth of tank Razz

As for their troops and Termies. Lets go over your AI power. First off each venom has 12 shots at 36" range. Thats a total of 72 4+ poison shots. Each venom on average does 4 wounds, so that is a total of 24 wounds and 7.992 dead marines (or 3.984 Termies) That is a pretty decent AI shooting compliment, and that is not including Duke's unit (which nets another 23 shots on the move (27 standing still) and another 10.201 wounds (11.976) and another 3.396 dead marines or 1.963 Termies (3.988 marines or 1.988 Termies). That is pretty awesome if you ask me (oh, I didnt include Duke's blast pistol, as using that means you are really too close for comfort Razz )
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