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 Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results

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Massaen
Klaivex
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PostSubject: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18 2012, 07:31

Incubi are one of those units who have a reputation.

The first time someone faces incubi there is always that same face of shock and awe as you outline their obscene stats. Weapon skill 5 means 3’s to hit. 3 attacks each. Strength 4 and power weapons at initiative 5. Backed up with fleet and a 3+ save. Scary stuff.

They do have weaknesses though. They can be pricey and lack grenades to attack with their cool initiative if you need to go for enemy in cover.

Most of the thoughts behind incubi on the net suggest 4-6 models with 7 being the max and 5 the norm (or 4 plus archon but we will get to that). The main theory is that you charge your 5 men into the enemy kill half, stay locked in combat and then break/wipe them the following phase.

Thing is – its my opinion that the internet has it all wrong.

First, lets look at the stats. Statistically, Incubi will kill 1 MEQ per incubi on the charge (3 attacks hitting on 3’s = 2 hits. S4 vs T4 is 4’s to wound = 1 wound with a power weapon). Excellent stuff. That said, what happens when they get hit back?

In a real scenario we know the 5 incubi will kill 5 marines on average rolls so taking the ‘stay in combat’ route we would charge 8-10 model squads. Given MEQ units typically don’t get their cool toys until 10 models, this is the target. 10 tactical marines with power fist sarge, melta gun & missile launcher. The all rounder of marines.

5 Incubi Charge, 15 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 5 kills thanks to power weapons.
4 marines fight back, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.44 kills
Power fist sarge fights, 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.83 wounds, 0.83 kills thanks to the power fist.

So the incubi win combat by around 4 (loosing one of their number in the process). The marines may choose to fail their LD test thanks to combat tactics but lets assume they choose to roll it. They have effective LD 5 at this stage so odds are in favour they will fail and then you will sweep them triggering ATSKNF which turns the sweep into no retreat. They lost by 4 models so its 4 more saves which will net another 1.33 dead marines.

Round 2 of combat now and its 4 incubi vs 4 marines. Incubi strike for 8 attacks bagging 2.6 kills. Even rounding this up to 3 dead marines the fist sarge will more than likely take another incubi with him. Odds on now he will go down to no retreat and we pick up a paint token. Note that this is of limited value as power fists still smash you.

So 110pts of incubi have bagged 200pts of tactical marines! Hazzah! But let’s look at the incubi unit that we have left. 3 models is really no threat to any but the most weakened of enemy units and is likely to be wiped out if they charge a full strength one. So its either dive for cover at which point they contribute nothing or thrown them into a combat they cannot win and take some of the enemy with you. So we got one effective charge and they are done.

Now what happens if we went with a 10 man squad. On the charge we will now wipe the tactical marines for no losses on average rolls (30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds) and pick up that all important pain token. At this stage we have our 220point having taken out a 200pt enemy unit so it’s a good win for us but of course now we are going to get shot at.
A lot.
We have assault troops on crack and the enemy has just seen them mince a unit without trying. He needs them dead now. Thing is, even if he half kills the squad, they still have the ability to take out another MEQ squad before becoming combat ineffective. With a good consolidate and position you should also get cover with some luck. Even without it, the FNP incubi are durable as heck. It takes around 14 bolter shots to get 1 FNP incubi. So a 10 man squad in rapid fire range lights the incubi up with a melta gun, frag missile (4 hits) and 15 bolter shots. That volley will manage just under 3 kills. 7 incubi will be more than enough to take them out and still have 5-6 left over after the inevitable fist sarge kills one. Thing is now I have furious charge. My 220 point unit has soaked fire and is now just as dangerous as a larger unit as I am S5 now. If the enemy points more guns at them prior to the charge (say 10 more marines) I will still more than likely have a combat effective unit of 4-6 models. Plus I have taken 600 points of the enemy out of the game for a turn at minimum.

Now what about a unit of grey hunters – 9 GH, melta gun, mark of the wulfen, power weapon, wolf standard, wolfguard with power fist and combi melta. A pretty standard unit for me to see.
5 Incubi charge this and kill 5 normal grey hunters exactly like a tactical squad. Then the hunters attack back. They will most likely have counter attack (LD9) active and the banner popped.

2 normal GH, 6 attacks will result in around 0.4 wounds after FNP & saves.
1 GH with PW, 3 attacks is around 1.1 kills
1 GH with MotW, average of 5 attacks is just over 1 kill thanks to rending
1 WG with fist is 3 attacks and just over 1 kill from the fist.
So we kill 5 grey hunters but loose between 3 and 4 incubi in return. Sure we win but they wipe us next turn with maybe 1-2 more losses and no real impact on the combat ability as they have their fist and melta.

10 Incubi wipe this unit for no losses again.
What about getting charged? No one is dumb enough to charge incubi unless they have to. 10 incubi will manage 6-7 kills while the 5 is only 3-4. I guarantee the 10 man squad is effective when it walks out of the combat. The 5 man may not get out at all.

Even cover becomes less of an issue with 10 models.

Its generally agreed that you need an archon with phantasm grenade launcher so that the incubi have assault grenades. A basic archon with PGL, SF & agoniser is 135 points. Assuming he goes with 4 incubi we now have a 223 point unit. 10 Incubi is 220.
Charging cover with 10 marines defending.
Archon, 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2 kills
4 Incubi, 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 kills
3 marines plus fist attack back and will generally get 1 kill. They lose another to no retreat.
Round 2, Archon manages 1.5 kills while the 3 incubi manage 2. With some luck you wipe the unit. Otherwise you lose another incubi and beat him with no retreat. So we now have 2 incubi plus an archon.
With the 10 man unit…
9 marines manage 1 kill after saves and the fist accounts for another. So 2 losses. My 8 remaining incubi will kill 8 marines on average so I win by 6. I will probably win through no retreat wounds and wipe them out. I am in cover with FNP for the enemy shooting phase.
As you can see, the losses have been the same on both sides but the 10 incubi do it much more efficiently and give the least amount of chances for the enemy to bail the embattled unit out of combat as it’s all said and done in 1 turn.

I hope this has made you have a second look at a larger unit of incubi rather than just going to the 4 plus archon route that I see so often. Trust me when I say they first time you deploy this unit and charge something, the opponents face makes it all worth it! If you have any suggestions or comments feel free! Incubi are one of my favorite units and i think seeing more on the table is only a good thing!

Happy hunting!

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Azdrubael
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18 2012, 11:17

Make mathhammer for charging Purifiers with Halberds and couple of hammers Surprised

Grey Hunters example is good. Tac squad...i forget when i faced them in this 10 man way. Thats either BA assault marines, or 5 man combat squadding objectives.

By the way - you cant really tell Incubi will kill on average that many marines. Thats power atacks with high WS, they dont have enough dice throws to have any informing and meaningfull average. Dispersion law. More accurate results with more dice throws.
You dont really need info how will incubi fare on average in 100+ games, you need info for informed desicion in this game.

So answer should be - Incubi will most likely kill between x and x marines.

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Massaen
Klaivex
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18 2012, 12:08

I have the stuff on purifiers... they suck!

Will post shortly

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18 2012, 13:35

I approve of this message!

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18 2012, 17:36

Funny, I wanted to ax question about Incubi... because people often go with "oprimised" (cheap) approach instead on "make unit working".

If I can add something, ALWAYS pick Vehicle for Incubi. Venoms are cheap and good AI and Raiders... well, they are useful in mech-heavy edition.

Also Haemonculus is pretty useful despite negating fleet (basically he give them 2+ save outright and FC after initial killing and Fearless AFTER second kill [so remnants actually stay on board]). Not to mention You can pick multiple WWP that way and enter Archon with them.

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Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results TattoosigtlUnderstanding Incubi – misconceptions and results TattoosigseUnderstanding Incubi – misconceptions and results Tattoosigow
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Massaen
Klaivex
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18 2012, 17:40

10 in a raider is a thing of terror for sure! I add a shock prow for even more fun!

In regards to the purifiers - the most common unit i see is MC hammer, 2 psycannons, 7 halberds for 10 men or hammer, psycannon, 4 halberds for 6 men.

Every one happy with this for comparision?

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Azdrubael
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18 2012, 18:51

Lets see how they fare.

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18 2012, 19:04

Pretty much "standard" setups.

I actually would never put them in Raider due to beeing "shoot me first AV10 OT" target. And Raiders are good so they always come handy, even empty. Especially when You fill Trueborn slot with "something different".

I think You need to build army around them since even *basic* unit would cost 220 points, not mentioning Raider. Most likely it SHOULD include WWP due to beeing "shoot me, I'm helpless outside CC".

One final thing - Klaivex, preferably with Onslaught.

I may try to make Incubi list and add to list section.

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Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results TattoosigtlUnderstanding Incubi – misconceptions and results TattoosigseUnderstanding Incubi – misconceptions and results Tattoosigow
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18 2012, 19:14

In regards to that, I'm now encountering the issue of running out of transport capacity (either 9 with Archon, or 8 with Archon and Haemy) so maybe I should be looking into the Klaivex option some more.

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Massaen
Klaivex
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 19 2012, 01:56

I have found that the klaivex is mandatory for the LD boost but with 10 - onslaught is only needed for the most dire of combats (like purifiers!)

Speaking of which...

VS Purifiers
10 Incubi, Klaivex (235) vs 10 Purifiers, 1 MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, 7 halberds (284)

Incubi Charge
Cleansing Flame – 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1.66 kills
Initiative 6
Klaivex, 4 attacks, 1.33 kills
7 Purifiers with Halberds, 14 attacks, 4.66 kills
Initiative 5
3 Incubi, 9 attacks, 3 kills
Initiative 4
2 Purifiers with psycannons, 4 attacks, 0.44 kills
Initiative 1
1 Purifier with MC hammer, 2 attacks, 1.25 kills
Combat totals – Purifiers (8.26 kills) vs Incubi (4.33 kills) Incubi loose by 4 and test on LD 5

Purifiers charge
Cleansing Flame – 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1.66 kills
Initiative 6
Klaivex, 3 attacks, 1 kill
7 Purifiers with Halberds, 21 attacks, 7 kills
Initiative 5
1 Incubi, 2 attacks, 0.66 kills
Initiative 4
2 Purifiers with psycannons, 6 attacks, 0.66 kills
Initiative 1
1 Purifier with MC hammer, 3 attacks, 1.87 kills
Combat totals – Purifiers (11.19 kills) vs Incubi (1.66 kills) Incubi are wiped out

Unfortunately for what they are – purifiers are just too cheap. With even point values the gap gets closer but it’s never in favour of the incubi.
Ironically the Incubi do much better against a 5 man termie squad with psycannon (comparable points) mainly due to the fact that there are half as many attacks coming at them. Even Paladins are killable.

5 termies, psycannon, 4 halberds, 1 hammer (225)
Incubi Charge
Initiative 6
Klaivex, 4 attacks, 0.88 kills
4 Terminators with Halberds, 8 attacks, 2.66 kills
Initiative 5
7 Incubi, 21 attacks, 4.66 kills
Initiative 1
1 terminator with hammer, 2 attacks, 0.66 kills
Combat totals – Terminators (3.32 kills) vs Incubi (5.54 kills) Terminators are wiped out

Terminators Charge
Initiative 6
Klaivex, 3 attacks, 0.66 kills
4 Terminators with Halberds, 12 attacks, 4 kills
Initiative 5
5 Incubi, 10 attacks, 2.22 kills
Initiative 1
1 terminator with hammer, 3 attacks, 1.25 kills
Combat totals – Terminators (5.25 kills) vs Incubi (2.88 kills) Incubi loose by just over 2 and test on LD 7.

5 Paladins, 1 psycannon & halberd, 1 halberd, 1 hammer, 1 MC psycannon & halberd, 1 MC halberd (325)
Incubi Charge
Initiative 6
Klaivex, 4 attacks, 0.88 wounds
4 Paladins with Halberds, 8 attacks, 3 kills
Initiative 5
6 Incubi, 18 attacks, 3 wounds
Initiative 1
1 terminator with hammer, 2 attacks, 0.66 kills
Combat totals – Terminators (3.66 kills) vs Incubi (3.88 wounds) – Drawn combat

Paladins Charge
Initiative 6
Klaivex, 3 attacks, 0.66 wounds
4 Terminators with Halberds, 12 attacks, 4.5 kills
Initiative 5
5 Incubi, 10 attacks, 2.22 wounds
Initiative 1
1 terminator with hammer, 3 attacks, 1.25 kills
Combat totals – Terminators (5.75 kills) vs Incubi (2.88 wounds) Incubi loose by just over 3 and test on LD 6.

So as you can see - Incubi stack up well when they charge (and they should be due to the transport plus fleet) but tend to loose to these elite units if charged.

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 19 2012, 14:27

Hey Massaen, here is list I've made.
http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t2240-incubi-heavy-list#23681

Not sure if half Kabal, half "sexual harassment time" approach is good... but here it is.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 19 2012, 15:03

my problem with running them more than 5 man strong is the point value you are throwing into an AV 10 open topped vehicle. It takes almost nothing to kill our raiders, and then you are left with a 220pt unit walking around on the ground hoping consentrated fire doesnt hit them. Incubi have their place, but when you throw too much into them, it hurts your army by being such a point sink and a potential T1 target for most players.

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 20 2012, 10:32

In the past 12 months of playing building and studying Dark Eldar I have never seen all 3 Elite slots filled by Incubi in other peoples army lists.

As Shadow said, the fragility of Incubi increases dramatically because of their transport's statline, hence not taking bigger squads as pretty much 90% of enemies firepower can bring down the Raiders/Venoms

In a fun game, I'd field 3 squads of 10 for sure, but keeping them alive is going to be the challange.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28 2012, 01:20

Incubi...Our good old boys...even with changed fluff they are still cool....

And about their tactics. I use them as 9 man unit (8 Incubi, 1 Incubi Master) Deathstar with Archon (with plasma grenade launcher and usulay agoniser and of course Shadow Field!) on a Raider in old fashioned way.

Main problem isn't keeping them mobile... This unit may assault 23" + D6" away with little tricks (aprox. 3" for free pivot + 12" cruising speed + 2" disembark + D6" run + 6" assault !!!) which means they can reach their preys easily....

The problem is what they can do after that... Walkers and power weapon squads (especialy ones like Bloodletters!) are banes of Incubi squads and every 'decent' player will move his walker or power weapon squads to them and awaiting you to finish your job with your prey....

But I won many battles just because of giving good support fire with Ravager or Scourges to clean these 'vultures'. They can easily attract attention of enemy and give you chance to break his strategy.

And one last note about them. They are expensive...Don't use them in smaller battles, try Hekatrix instead if you wish to use a combat oriented Elite slot.
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jb7090
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results   Understanding Incubi – misconceptions and results I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 30 2012, 14:41

Thanks for doing all the work to put out such an informative article.
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