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shadow hunter
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PostSubject: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 12 2012, 21:34

I've played several games, and in each one the agonizer on my wyches has been really unimpressive. I'm lucky to get one wound. And with so many inv. saves I find it rarely doing any damage.

I cant help but start to think a venom blade would be far better. The ability to wound easier (i struggle with 4+ it seems, and i always dread rolling it) and the points it saves me would allow more wyches which generally seem to do all the actual damage (weight of numbers)

I've got a tourny coming up and my list is already in with agonzers. At least that's 6 games in one weekend to make more of a judgement, but I'm pretty sure i wouldn't miss that 1 occassional power weapon wound.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 12 2012, 22:05

Versus Marines you should only really be expecting one wound from the Aggie. The venom blade will wound more, but after armor saves will inflict less damage.

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shadow hunter
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 12 2012, 22:08

One wound which can often be saved - or allocated to ccw wounds. I cant see it is worth the steep cost of 20pts. That's 2 more wyches, 6 attacks on the charge, and 2 more 4++ wounds.

I might start dropping it.
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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 12 2012, 23:47

I'll take all the additional wounds I can get to make morale checks a little easier. Gotta keep those heavy hitters tied up!
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 02:21

@shadow hunter wrote:
One wound which can often be saved - or allocated to ccw wounds. I cant see it is worth the steep cost of 20pts. That's 2 more wyches, 6 attacks on the charge, and 2 more 4++ wounds.

I might start dropping it.
Well, it can be saved if our target has invulnerable saves - odds are even if they do they have a better capability so save vs. non-power weapons. I have no idea what you mean by allocation - venom blades can be allocated just as well as power weapons...I think I'm missing something.

vs. MEQ
2 Wyches - 6 attacks on the charge - 3 hit - 1 wounds = .33 wounds after armor save
Agoniser Hek - 4 attacks on charge - 2 hit 1 wounds = 1 dead Marine after armor saves

So, basically you need about 6 regular Wyches to equal the killing power of 1 Agoniser. Cost wise that looks pretty good for the Aggie in my mind. It's also much, much better versus anything with FNP (which is becoming a not uncommon thing out there nowadays thanks to Blood Angels being ruddy everywhere).

The Wyches will give you extra wounds to absorb damage, but usually with Wyches my goal is to win combats, and the Hek will help better with that and keep me from having to risk leadership tests.

You also may want to check out the Pages of Pain
http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t1026-pages-of-pain-useful-posts-articles-and-debates-for-all-things-de
I know there's an entry in there to a discussion about Agonisers and whether or not they are any good - and I'm pretty sure there was some serious talk debating between Aggies and V.Blades as optimal picks. (I'm on the Aggie side Wink )
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 02:32

As pointed out - on the charge, the Ag is around 1 kill.

Consider though the venom blade is another wych in the unit with change... and its nearly as good.

The VB gains effect from the combat drugs - it can gain rerolls thanks to the S boost drug (Ag can not)

VS MEQ
AG - 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 unsaved wound
VB - 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66 wounds, 0.55 unsaved wounds
extra wych - 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.5 wounds, 0.16 unsaved wounds

So that saving nearly nets you the same effect (1 kill vs 0.71) but gets an extra pody in the mix and is more effective with the combat drug rolls.

I normally just add the agoniser as a matter of habit but doing this makes me think the VB has alot going for it...

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 02:40

The combat drug thing is pretty 'meh'

The Aggie gains *significantly* more from the re-roll wound drug, and neither of them gain much of anything from the +1 Str drug. (Aggie stays the same and V.Blade gains .28 of a wound for .09 gain after saves...whoo-hoo. Meanwhile Aggie gains .5 wounds after saves via the re-roll while the Venom Blade again gets .09)

So .18 vs. .5 shows that actually the Aggie does better via drugs being included, not the V.Blade.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 07:40

While the numbers support you - your neglecting the fact that 16% of the results do NOTHING for the agoniser while the VB gets something for the same roll. It also added another body to the list who will also get the bonus...

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Ebonhart
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 11:22

if your not happy with the agonizer, your hekatrix can also use wych weapons, so you can add another hydra gauntlet to your wyches. feel free to mathhammer that out.
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Urien Rakarth
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 13:28

While the mathammer is all well and good, from my own personal experience I've caused far more unsaved wounds with my venom blades than the Agonisers have done. My dice never seem to hit averages though, it tends to be pretty much all or nothing which is where I think the VBs average out so well from my own experiences.
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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 14:49

@Ebonhart wrote:
if your not happy with the agonizer, your hekatrix can also use wych weapons, so you can add another hydra gauntlet to your wyches. feel free to mathhammer that out.

Where do you see this option? It isn't listed under the gear options for a hekatrix.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 15:52

Pretty much its all in what you want. Personally I always include an Agoniser, as it just pushes wyches over to winning their combat. Who cares if 1 drug doesnt help it, the rest do, and it is shown to be the better weapon. Now if you have more luck with the venom blade, by all means (heck... even if you prefer the power weapon) just try it out and see if you really miss those PW wounds...

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shadow hunter
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 16:25

Thanks for the opinions and maths guys. It's good to see some good points for all sides.

I know the theory is that the agonizer should guarantee a MEQ kill, but i just dont seem to be able to roll statistcally. Especially when i really need that kill.

I did actually try the power weapon once but i lucked on my drug roll with +1S. They already had a power token due to a Haemo, and then managed to get furious charge after assaulting a small unit. It meant the hekatrix was striking at S5 on the charge. But that was unusual.

I do like to charge things like termies with my wyches, so that all those power fists etc are wasted. However it means they also have inv. saves, and that's where if I do ever wound with an agonizer -it gets saved anyway.

In the examples above a hekatrix with agonizer is compared to 2 wyches. But that's not quite fair. The hekatrix and agoniser comes in at 40pts, the wyches just 20. I think it should be 4 wyches versus hekatrix and agoniser. In which case the kills are almost the same, but the wounds are massively different. (plus lack of leadership)

Its a shame my tourny is so close as I cant now experiment more. What I can do though is let you all know how i finally get on with the agonizers (2 squads of wyches 8 + hekatrix)

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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 14 2012, 14:19

Just thought I'd put it out there, the venom blade has less attacks as poisoned weapons are 'special close combat weapons' so require another of the same weapon for the bonus attack. The agoniser, on the other hand, gets +1 attack with a splinter pistol. The only thing in the book that can have another attack with a venom blade is a Succubus because they can buy two.

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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 14 2012, 14:42

@Anggul wrote:
Just thought I'd put it out there, the venom blade has less attacks as poisoned weapons are 'special close combat weapons' so require another of the same weapon for the bonus attack. The agoniser, on the other hand, gets +1 attack with a splinter pistol. The only thing in the book that can have another attack with a venom blade is a Succubus because they can buy two.

An agoniser is a special close combat weapon as well. As long as you only have a special close combat weapon and a pistol/extra standard close combat weapon you get +1 attack. There's nothing special about the venom blade that prevents this. Venom blade + splinter pistol = +1 attack for two weapons.
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Ebonhart
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 14 2012, 15:50

@Archeonlotet wrote:
@Ebonhart wrote:
if your not happy with the agonizer, your hekatrix can also use wych weapons, so you can add another hydra gauntlet to your wyches. feel free to mathhammer that out.

Where do you see this option? It isn't listed under the gear options for a hekatrix.

sorry someone had mentioned this to me at some point and i didn't have my codex handy to double check it. i don't know why it got stuck in my head thou
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 14 2012, 18:49

@shadow hunter wrote:
In the examples above a hekatrix with agonizer is compared to 2 wyches. But that's not quite fair. The hekatrix and agoniser comes in at 40pts, the wyches just 20. I think it should be 4 wyches versus hekatrix and agoniser. In which case the kills are almost the same, but the wounds are massively different. (plus lack of leadership)
Not quite equal, more like the Aggie remains 33% better at killing MEQ for the same points...

vs. MEQ
4 Wyches - 12 attacks on the charge - 6 hit - 2 wounds = .66 wounds after armor save
Agoniser Hek - 4 attacks on charge - 2 hit 1 wounds = 1 dead Marine after armor saves

Plus the hek gives you a very important Ld. shift from 8 to 9, which is really valuable.
Also, unless you're currently taking Wych squads of 6 - you can't get the benefit because you won't be able to fit them all in a Raider, so, again, the Aggie has marked superior benefits.

@Massaen wrote:
While the numbers support you - your neglecting the fact that 16% of the results do NOTHING for the agoniser while the VB gets something for the same roll. It also added another body to the list who will also get the bonus...
I showed that, in that 16% the Aggie still does better at killing, and in another 16% the Aggie gains *substantially* more than the V.Blade - and in all of the remaining situations the Aggie gains more or simply remains better at killing MEQ than the V.Blade.

Even in your example you showed that V.Blade+Wych kills less than Hek+Aggie without drugs. Even including drugs there is never a situation where the Wych/V.Blade combo ever scores more kills then the Hek+Aggie. That's all I'm saying - the Aggie is provably better at killing MEQ (and TEQ) and that's what I want, my army is already great at killing GEQ and I want to increase the ability to deal with MEQ (which is easily half of all armies you'll end up fighting) and there is no other equivalent point expenditure in Wyches that will do as well at killing MEQ as a Aggie Hek.

I'm fine if other people have odd die luck that makes the V.Blade work better for them or have terrible Aggie luck so that it never works and they need to try something different. All I'm saying is that not counting for luck, the Aggie is statistically the superior weapon.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 15 2012, 03:08

The fact thats its 4 times the price of the venom blade means it should be better... but its certainly not 4 times better

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 15 2012, 03:57

The price tag is for increased versatility, which in practical terms means MCs. A basic PW reaps nigh-equal rewards to the Ago concerning MEQ/GEQ basic infantry, for half the price tag. Anything over T5 is going to present a serious problem though, so it depends on how often you expect to face such targets.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 15 2012, 04:03

At the end of the day though - MC's are not the area wyches excel at other than tarpitting them.

Your lances are for MC's

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 15 2012, 06:40

@Massaen wrote:
The fact thats its 4 times the price of the venom blade means it should be better... but its certainly not 4 times better
It is basically two times as good though (and this just versus MEQ, not TEQ or FNP MEQ wherein it is actually getting into 4x as good).

But, yes, the real question then is - are all of its benefits (of which there are many) worth 15 extra points?
I would say unquestionably yes, but will accept that's my opinion. As long as we agree the Agoniser is inherently better at killing basically everything except GEQ or weaker units (wherein the gap is still closer than VBlade vs. Aggie vs. MEQ) I have no issue with debating a relative value of it versus a VBlade - I just have issue debating if it's "better" than a VBlade because the answer to that is clearly 'yes'.
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 15 2012, 09:29

oh i agree its better - i was just highlighting the saving of the points reinvested into the unit in a 'white room' scenario made the change over close to even

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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 15 2012, 14:20

I've only seen the Agoniser shine when spammed throughout your army, MSU style.

Big units of wyches = don't need much upgrades (not even Hekatrix, it seems)

Small units of wyches = lots of upgrades (including wych weapons)

If you bring 4 units of wyches packing an agoniser each, coupled with three small reaver units packing agonisers too, you'll see how deadly that can be.
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 15 2012, 14:55

@Archeonlotet wrote:
@Anggul wrote:
Just thought I'd put it out there, the venom blade has less attacks as poisoned weapons are 'special close combat weapons' so require another of the same weapon for the bonus attack. The agoniser, on the other hand, gets +1 attack with a splinter pistol. The only thing in the book that can have another attack with a venom blade is a Succubus because they can buy two.

An agoniser is a special close combat weapon as well. As long as you only have a special close combat weapon and a pistol/extra standard close combat weapon you get +1 attack. There's nothing special about the venom blade that prevents this. Venom blade + splinter pistol = +1 attack for two weapons.

My bad, I thinking of the 4+ poisoned weapon & 2+ poisoned weapon problem that comes about with Wracks Acothysts. (i.e. both poisoned but don't get the bonus attack because they're different.)

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Agonising over the agonizer   Agonising over the agonizer I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 15 2012, 17:41

Another one in favour of the PW; it does feel pretty stupid sometimes to have paid double the price only to need a 4+ instead of a 3+/2+ to wound...

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