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 Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment

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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 09:52

I'm aware of the Pain Token Shenanigans with Wracks, Haemie, Baron and Hellions but I'm thinking about making it happen for Archon and Incubi. I pretty sure I'm on the right track here but pls help me out with my thought process.

So we deploy either 1 Raider deep or 2 Raiders next to each other, behind cover (or 2 Rav's) with both squads standing on the outside. 1 squad consists of a Haemie attached to Incubi, the other is an Archon attached to the Wracks. Lets say they are 4" apart.

In the movement phase, firstly, the Haemie walks away, leaving the PT with the Incubi, and either joins the Wracks, or hangs out in cover. Secondly, the Archon leaves the Wracks, taking the PT and walks over to join the Incubi squad. They now have 2 PT's and can now embark onto the Raider, and either fly forward 12" if safe, or stay there, for a T2 turbo boost.

As for the Archon, we'd give him Huskblade/Soul Trap and Combat Drugs (loving the +1 Str, or Reroll Wounds drug results) aswell as PGL and Shadowfield.


Now we look at the ingame application. If we're going first in all 3 deployments, no problems with making it happen. Make the switch, embark and get ready for T2 Turbo or move then assault.

Going 2nd against a full Deepstrike army, no worries, as there is no-one on the board T1. T2 we can turbo to earn cover saves.

Going 2nd in Spearhead is safe as we can park very deep in our DZ.

Going 2nd in Pitched Battle may cause problems, depending on cover available, and opponents long range shooting capabilities. We'd need to hide for 2 turns of shooting.....

Going 2nd in DoW is an interesting scenario due to the depoyment rules and our allowance to embark and disembark during the movement phase........

How could we get around this, being that the 2 units (Archon/Wracks and Haemie/Incubi) need to be on the board at the sametime, and still have the ability to embark T1? Maybe we just don't do it....
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 20:27

Hmm! It's an interesting idea to get the archon/incubi on 2 PT's right away but i think there are a couple of points to bear in mind. I'm not 100% sure as this is open to rules interpretation but here goes.

I don't believe the Heamie can join the Archon/wrack unit when he leaves the incubi based on the following. When an IC joins a unit the unit cannot move after this has happened, as that IC would need to move with them as he is now part of the unit.
So if the heamie joins the wracks/archon unit then, as the archon is part of the unit at that time he cannot leave it. So the heami would have to go hide somewhere and not be able to join the wracks until T2.
Also when the Archon joins the incubi they will be able to board the raider but it cannot move as the Archon as part of the unit has used the movement for the unit.
Might be wrong but I believe those are limitations on it. It's easy enough to get the 2 PT's on the archon/incubi, it's the rest thats the problem.
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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 21:11

IC's don't actually join units until the end of the movement phase. I think the statement that units cannot move after an IC joins it is there to prevent abuse and disagreements (how rare to find that in a GW book!). So you could have an Archon and a hammy swap places in their respective units. Those units can even move as long as they don't move any farther in a movement phase than their normal movement allows.

It is a rough illustration, but I think it gets the point across, assume all the arrows represent 6" of movement, the small circles are ICs and the large circles are units

Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment ICmovement

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 21:33

By joining, moving inside transport you are limiting your movement and cant go flat-out.

So the only way to actually have raider-mounted assault pain token sheanigans is to have 2 dedicated raiders , one with Wracks And Archon, second with Incubi and Haemy and to join Archon to Incubi only prior to the assault.

Thats of coarse bring some limiting factors to it.

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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 22:08

Of course, there is the limitation to moving, not going flat out T1 after troops have moved in and out of Raiders, I had factored that in. You infact would be sitting there, or you could move up to 12", if cover, or opponent deployment allowed it ie: full reserve Deepstrikers. You want to deploy so you are safe. Either find cover or make your own, by positioning your 2 or 3 Rav's right infront of the Raiders to grant the save.

Archeonlotet, you've described this well, to add another level of thought, we could have both combo's begin mounted in their respective Raiders. The Haemie jumps from 1 and ends his movement phase within 2" of other Raider, allowing him to Embark. The Archon does the same, leaving the Wracks and joining the Incubi.

I wasn't aware of ruling about IC's joing squads, then no further movement allowed, but I can see that it makes sense ie: IC moves 6" in 1 direction to jon squad, then squad with IC move another 6". Is this also true for our transports? IC ends movement phase with 2" to embark, and then fly up to 12" ? Doesn't sound like its allowed....

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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 22:33

@1++ wrote:
I wasn't aware of ruling about IC's joing squads, then no further movement allowed, but I can see that it makes sense ie: IC moves 6" in 1 direction to jon squad, then squad with IC move another 6". Is this also true for our transports? IC ends movement phase with 2" to embark, and then fly up to 12" ? Doesn't sound like its allowed....

This is a very good question. It would seem to me that the vehicle could still move. When the IC embarks the vehicle, the IC joins the unit inside as though it ended it's movement phase within 2" of the unit. This stops the unit inside from moving any further, but it isn't the unit that is actually moving but the transport moving with them inside it. When a unit is inside a transport they stop using their own movement rules and defer to those of the transport. To put it another way, if a unit of infantry moved 6" to get within 2" of a transport, they normally could not move any further as their allowance had already been spent. The transport rules then kick in allowing the transport itself to move regardless of the amount of movement the passengers had used.

This is how I interpret the situation, I could be horribly incorrect Razz
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 23:55

Archeonlotet, you have indeed got it horribly incorrect.
You cannot move a unit 6", embark and then move the transport. You can only embark from within 2" at the start of your movement and then move the transport.

Example: Your archon moves 6 " towards a raider with your incubi in it. He finishes within 2 " of raider and so embarks. He becomes part of the unit, right there at that moment. The raider cannot move with him in it as he has already moved.

Your diagram for IC's and units is correct, as shown. However if an IC joins a unit before it has moved (if the IC's had moved horizontally in the diagram instead of diagonally), then that unit cannot move thereafter, as the IC would also have to move again, and nothing gets to move twice in the one movement phase. This is why it is important to move units and IC's in the correct order.
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 01:08

BRB pg 66, right column, 2nd Bullet point under Embarking:

"If a vehicle has not moved before its passengers got aboard, it can move as normal"



Also, from BRB pg 66, "models can not voluntarily Embark AND Disembark in the same player turn."

In order for this plan to work, both units would have to be outside the tranports at deployment. Do models that bring Dedicated transports need to be onboard at Deployment?


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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 01:55

@1++ wrote:
Do models that bring Dedicated transports need to be onboard at Deployment?
No, they don't.
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 02:11

Sweet, thanks Thor.

So the plan goes, we deploy 2 Raiders side by side, with each squad sitting behind each Raider. During Movement phase, Haemie moves away from Incubi, joining Wracks that are within 2" of their Raider, the Archon moves away from Wracks/Haemie squad, joining Incubi squad, who are also within 2" of Raider, to then embark.

Can fly at cruising speed if need be.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 02:31

Why not just leave the Haem with the Incubi? There probably won't be 9 Incubi in the squad and it saves you having to risk Incubi outside of a Raider.

Also, in DoW this tactic gets eaten for breakfast - so, again, it makes sense to have the Haem set up to hang with the Incubi as at least then the Incubi can start with FNP if not FC.

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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 03:31

Yeah, DoW is going to be a tough one to manage. Could leave him inside, but how would the Pain Token swap work when it comes time for the Incubi/Archon to jump out and assault......the Haemie, lift inside the Raider will have to keep the Pain Token......

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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 04:39

@Thor665 wrote:
@1++ wrote:
Do models that bring Dedicated transports need to be onboard at Deployment?
No, they don't.

Keep in mind they are the only ones that can start the game embarked in it though. No grabbing a venom with one unit and starting off with your harlies in it.
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 08:56

Apologies due, I have been hamstringing myself since god knows when.
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 09:33

@kenny3760 wrote:
Apologies due, I have been hamstringing myself since god knows when.


In relation to what Ken?
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 16:06

@1++ wrote:
@kenny3760 wrote:
Apologies due, I have been hamstringing myself since god knows when.


In relation to what Ken?

My assertion that you could not move a unit, embark and then move the vehicle. I was totally wrong.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 20:46

Yah, I remember a marine player did that to me back when 5th first came out and I blew a gasket thinking it was illegal - I couldn't find it where is forbid it, so the marine player moved his squad 6", embarked 2" and moved 12" in the rhino and then claimed the rhino went "flat-out" for the cover save. I protested that too but their was another marine player there that was "respected" and said rhino's can go flat-out.

I was wrong for complaining about the movement and then insult to injury let the rhino have a cover save too - gah! sneeky mahrheenz!

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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10 2012, 15:51

Yah, its a sneaky move in DOW. Starting two empty transports out on the field 6~7 in" away from your board edge, T1 moving your unit inside it, then moving the vehicle. Works great sometimes, other times its kinda meh... depends on your army.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment   Pain Token Shenanigans at Deployment I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10 2012, 18:55

Whats worth in such move, you cant move flat out the turn you embark.

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