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Shadows Revenge
Thor665
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Ichiyo1821
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PostSubject: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 07 2012, 13:02

Just to clarify, I wanted to know how our vehicle guns are mounted. For example, I am confused as to whether the Splinter Canon below the Venom is hull mounted and which counts as the additional Splinter Canon. Is the top on the optional one or is it the stock one (granted that for some unknown reason you just can't find the points for the additional one). I've modified my Venoms SC to be underslung behind both wings as they just seem cooler to me. I am not sure if the top SC counts as pintle-mounted or what which made me question every other weapon for DE vehicles. Correct me where I am wrong please.

Raider - Hull mounted Dark Lance or Dissie (45 degrees)

Venom - Top SC - pintle mounted(360?), Bottom SC - Hull mounted

Ravager - middle DL or Dissie - Hull mounted, Side Sponson Dl or Dissie - (180 degrees)

Razorwing - everything hull mounted

Void Raven - everything hull mounted
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 07 2012, 19:41

Raider - this is a pintle mount.
Ravager - pintle on all three

^^^
Those two are mostly done from the old models, but my 'at a glance' assessment of the new models had them as the same, wherein they were on pintles and manned by gunners just like the old ones.

Venom - top is pintle (and is the non-upgrade option one) - I would tend to call it a 180 degree arc simply due to the gunner needing a place to stand. Bottom (the upgrade location) is debatable as it looks like the device could rotate. I have some I've done as underslung wing mounts I call hull mounted as they are fixed. I would tend to call the normal mount a sponson mount but could see it argued as hull - doesn't matter too much since we don't really have a "front" to our vehicles besides the Ravager anyway.

Razor and Void - hull mounted, I agree.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 15:46

From the few tournaments Ive been too (no major ones) They were called as followed.

Raider- Hull mounted
Ravager- Hull mounted, side sponsons
Venom- Top pintle mounted, underneath hull mounted
Planes- hull mounted

Sadly even when I had the old models where they said they were pintle... I was called on it. Its sad really... I personally just think its the Imperium trying to hold a good Xenos down Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 16:17

How can they possibly look at a model that is clearly a pintle mount manned by a crew member and call it hull mounted? Especially if they call the Venom one pintle? I want their names so I can send them vague e-mails insulting their reasoning capabilities.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 20:10

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
From the few tournaments Ive been too (no major ones) They were called as followed.

Raider- Hull mounted
Ravager- Hull mounted, ............

Sadly even when I had the old models where they said they were pintle... I was called on it.

You wuz robbed. Seriously. That just defies all logic, I would have thought this to be a no-brainer.

a) - They are mounted on a pintle.

pin·tle (pntl)
n.
1. A pin or a bolt on which another part pivots.
2. Nautical The pin on which a rudder turns.
3. The pin on which a gun carriage revolves.
4. A hook or a bolt on the rear of a towing vehicle for attaching a gun or trailer.


b) - They are mounted on top of an open-topped vehicle, i.e.; there is no hull structure to physically mount them into at that region of the vehicle.

Nuts.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10 2012, 15:32

the reasoning behind it was the side armor structures on the raider/ravager chasis would block any movement more than the 180 degrees that hull mounted allows. Meaning it could only fire in its forward arc. Same was said about the mounts on the side of the ravager, and the model can only turn 180 like the side sponsons of a predator.

And yes, I know I was robbed, but I had to go with the ruling. And yes I was the only dark eldar player in a room full of Imperium players Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10 2012, 18:42

But wouldn't that apply to Venoms as well? It's ruling them as different that really boggles my mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 26 2012, 14:24

On a side note, it would be so easy if they just noted what arc they have in the codex. Not that hard to do really and saves a lot of confusion.

Having had this debate last night I dug into the rules...

P59 "Pintle mounted weapons can either fire in a 360 arc, if they are mounted on the vehicles turret, or can fire in a 45 arc from thier mounting point, if they are mounted on the vehicles hull"

So I see that as raiders/ravagers front main weapon, and the venoms top gunned cannon. None of those models have turrets and the weapons appear pintle mounted.

As for the optional TL splinter rifles/ Cannon under the venoms, I see those as 360 as it physically goes all around. But as its not a turret and is hull mounted it would be hard to argue. But my opponent last night did agree it had a 360.

Additionally, the artwork for the Ravager has the front gunner clearly shooting in a 180 arc. But thats an illustration! Interesting none the less.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 26 2012, 14:27

their reasoning for the top of the top splinter cannon being pintle mounted was me actually winning one for our side. They said it was hull mounted as well, to which I pointed out the storm bolter on a rhino is pintle. After some back and forth they reluctantly said it was pintle. Doesnt matter anyway, the bottom one is hull mounted anyway and ofc we want both cannons shooting at all times Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 27 2012, 20:06

Then there is the faq about pintle weapons that says, if the weapon looks like it can be pointed at something, it can, and will be capable of rotating 360. The only things that will stop it drawing los is the vehicles own hull.

crew are irrelevent. It doesn't matter that there can be a guy modeled hodling the gun, you can still spin it around. you can just as easily say it's computer controlled, that's why the crew don't matter.

All of the ravager weapons can turn 360, its own hull and stuff block movement/los.

The 45 degree angle thing is strickly for weapons that are fixed pointing in just one direction. that isn't the case for any of the ravager weapons as they can and do move.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 28 2012, 00:43

All of the non-flyer Dark Eldar vehicles' (Venom,Raider and Ravager) weapons are pintle-mounted. Both in older and newer models they are 'pintle mounted' UNLESS you meet with 'weird organiser' who insist on they are 'hull mounted' or a stupid FAQ which opposes the models they produced, feel free to play them as pintle mounted and if opponents asks 'why' just show him/her the miniature! Very Happy or say him/her 'Oqlanth says so' Very Happy


By the way keep this FAQ which mukslinger mentioned in your mind about pintle mounted weapons;

Q: The rules for the arc of fire of pintle-mounted (or
bolt-on) weapons address those mounted on turrets
and those mounted directly on the hull. But what
about those mounted on smaller structures (like a
Rhino’s cupola) that look like they can rotate 360º,
even though they aren’t proper turrets? (p59)
A: Remember that the rule is: if it looks like you can
point the gun at it, then you can, even if it’s glued in
place’. The rest is just a set of guidelines about the arcs
of fire of weapons glued in place, and does not cover
all possible weapons mounting and vehicles. If the
structure the gun is pintle-mounted on is obviously
capable of rotating 360º, like in the case of a Rhino’s
cupola, then it should be treated as having a 360º arc
of fire. However, if you mount the same storm bolter
on a Razorback, even though it still can rotate 360º, it
won’t obviously be able to fire through the Razorback’s
main turret, and so it will have a ‘blind spot’. In the
same way, the shuriken catapult mounted under the
hull of a Wave Serpent, Falcon, etc. looks like it can
rotate 360º, but it does not look like it can be fired
through the main hull right behind it, so we normally
play that it can be fired roughly in the 180º to the
vehicle’s front, as an acceptable compromise.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29 2012, 14:18

So in other words all of you guys support that Raiders, Ravagers all have 180 degress LOS on all weapons and 360 for Venoms?
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicle Weapons   Vehicle Weapons I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 30 2012, 03:55

I would consider them all 180 pintle, personally except maybe the underside of the Venom which I would lean towards hull..
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