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 Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 01:53

If your problem is 'luck is terrible' there's not much that can be done for you by asking others.

Fielding Sathypants will get you first turn more often - maybe you should try that? If you do better when yo get first turn our codex actually has some tools to help you get first turn more often.

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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 09:16

If your not going first against a that sort of IG list have you tried full reserving. It's not something I would normally advocate, but like you. I have been wiped off the table in a couple of turns by a Hydra/chimera/vendetta list.
The range of the Hydra's and the outflanking of the vendetta makes it hard to hide a skimmer heavy list on anythig but a heavily terrained table so limiting the amount of turns they get to shoot at you and getting in some (50%) of your shots first can help. Of course they may have the dude who has reserve manip[ulation rules.
The low BS of the vebdetta is overcome by 3 TL lascannons, basically if it targets one of our skimmers you may as well just take it off the board.

I've got a game tonight against one of my mates who will be running a mech IG list. I'll let you know what happens.
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 10:29

yeah please do that will be great.

I don't think its simply that "luck is terrible", I mean it plays a huge factor in 40K but its not an excuse. I was kind of looking for general tips or suggestions. whether or not the list is suitable or any other peoples experiences.
Never thought about running Sathypants, I think I just don't see him as that useful in the long run compared to say a ravager. I guess you could also go whole hog and take Vect as well, but there must be a way to simply survive first turn. I mean even in a big game against a Tau heavy list I can survive past the first shooting phase even if I go second and get in close enough to steamroll through next turn.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 16:35

Versus DE Tau are crud at shooting as compared to IG though. All Tau are good at is generating a low number of shots with high strength - that makes them easy to deal with via FFs/cover saves/misses.

IG generate a high number of mid to mid-high str attacks - therefore protecting themselves from the dangers of all of the above, and all you really need is one penetrate to get through to deal with a DE vehicle.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 21:32

You almost have to do an "X's" and "O's" with a turn by turn question and answers. I did that once and people like it. I would give them the mission and deployment with a blank map (with a grid), then placed the enemy units down - then I would ask everyone where you would put your units by grid coordinates.

I did this for each turn and I think I learned more about my choices were not like the others and was very surprised in fact. In other words, everyone had a way different take on what I thought would be obvious options.

Thor, I think this would work well here, a clinic of sorts that would teach everyone deployment strategies, target priorities and overall game strategy turn by turn. You could probably use one of your battle reports and just show the map before you make moves or shots and ask, "what would you do here? of course everything is predetermined but if you saw a map with everything on it and you have this venom full of blasterborns with 2 or 3 different possible targets and let the forum all have a choice and go over why they made that choice.

I suppose ideally, Grub could show us a map of the battlefield just before 1st move (after deployment) and we can all evaluate the deployment and then with the deployment that was used how we would move those units in relation to what the enemy did.

That would be the only way show Grub what you mean other than letting experience teach Grub the hard way.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 22:00

That sounds both interesting and like a lot of work...I may give it a whirl at some point.

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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 09 2012, 23:01

Ok, played my mates typical IG 1750 list tonight and got a draw: 1 command squad, 2 troop command squads all with max melta's, 4 troop squads all with 1 melt and 1 auto-cannon. These were in 7 chimera. 3 Vendetta with 3 twin linked lascannons, 2 x 2 Hydra squads and a collosus.

We played home and away, spearhead, he got to go first, deployed as a parking lot with vendettas near centre, chimera screen and the rest tucked in. No matter how I set up I was getting at least 5 vehicles blown up, not enough Blos, so I full reserved.

Now my mate played this pretty well by keeping his parking lot well back, with the troop chimeras front and centre with smoke popped and the vendettas also fully back and having moved fast. Net result when I came on in T2 no damage. The IG then shot a lot and every unit that fired did some damage.
This pretty much sets the tone for every game I've played against this type of IG list, however by playing the mission I sneaked a draw with a lone warrior holding my objective. All I had left was 1 warrior, 3 blaster born and a disabled venom. It speaks volumes when all I had taken out of his armour was 2 vendettas, 1 chimera and disabled another chimera.

How do you beat this? I'd say you need first turn, a very good alpha strike and then your in with a chance. If you full reserve like I did, I believe you need to sacrafice your first turn of shooting to just zoom 24" across the table and pray for good cover saves. My list has 19 blasters in it which isn't ideal against IG.
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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10 2012, 01:37

The full reserve is the best choice IMO. If you have anything that can soak up damage (like grotesques) they CAN deploy because FNP, T5, wound allocation and cover are your friends. This allows him to focus on then (while they do something like deploy a portal. The hydras are the next target, when you arrive lances/blasters in to them as much as you can, they must be stopped. The vendettas are next. It is a very tough match up for DE and practice is the only thing that can really give you thick skin when it comes to the match up. Remember, that stunning a chimera is just as good as killing it in a lot of cases (same as a hydra, harder to do against the squadrons) Suiciding some wyches to haywire as many tanks as you can for a turn till you get into better position is always something that is viable.

Warriors can mop up squads of guardsmen in cc, especially if they are not blobbed. A draw is def not bad, considering. By far DOW is the best match up against this IG list because you can effectively reserve it all (or use nightfight to your advantage) and then move half way up the table t1.

Any note on the list you ran?

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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10 2012, 10:17

The list I ran was

Archon: Blaster

4 Blasterborn, Venom with extra cannon

4 Blasterborn, Venom with extra cannon

4 Blasterborn, Venom with extra cannon

5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom with extra cannon

5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom with extra cannon

5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, Flickerfield

5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, Flickerfield

5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, Flickerfield

5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, Flickerfield

Ravager, 3 Lances, Flickerfield

Ravager, 3 Lances, Flickerfield

Razorwing, 2 Lances, Monoscythe missiles, Flickerfield.

Both of us are going to a tournament mid February and were testing out our respective lists, so there was no tailoring. My reserve rolls showed the weakness of my list, as despite getting 6 units, I only got 2 lances on the table in T2, while getting 15 blasters.
This meant where he was positioned I had very few shots in range (3 I think), and the return fire was predictably devastating. I lost 4 vehicles in his first turn of shooting. Even with cover saves there is very little you can do when each vehicle gets hit by 3 twin-linked lascannons or 4 twin-linked auto-cannons.

His list is going to become even worse against the full reserve as by changing some meltas to flamers on his troop choices he will take a Master of the Fleet, who will royally screw with your reserve rolls. This was something we discussed after the game as we reckon full reserve is a tactic he will see used against him.
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10 2012, 11:30

I like the idea of the grid thing, I have no games coming up for a long time though, back to University but it would be very interesting to do this. Maybe someone who's got some games coming up could start a thread, maybe a turn every couple of days kind of thing. Or even create a fake game by teaming up with another experienced player from another race (IG preferably) and seeing what people would do. Is there any software that could do this?

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10 2012, 15:19

When I did it turn by turn each phase took about a week as to explain why I made the choices I made (and we discussed it) and then each person who wanted to participate did the same (discussed their reasons of deployment, what they hoped to accomplish, etc.,). Sure, there were some grumbling over the units I took and why I played with them but once everyone understood what the units were that I used we were able to proceed.

I do believe though it has to be a battle report that really happened as to allow the opponents moves reflect someone's actual decisions. The person proctoring battle report will have to allow the game to proceed as it actually happened, explain your moves, explain the opponents move and allow the viewers to guess what to do next (cause and effect).

My crude map and grid was done strictly on Microsoft Paint - you probably can probably use Vassal stuff the same way. When I did it back in 4th edition it was before Vassal so I am not sure of the specifics involved. I would post that ancient post (in 2007 I believe) but when I returned to it I noticed that the maps that I had uploaded were now gone (duh, oops!). And with the old codex fighting the old marines in the previous edition wouldn't help much.

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Tropheus
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 18:09

Hmmm, from experience a DS army will not work unless your dice are really hot that game.
- I would run reserves unless its night fight and I would still keep a couple lances in reserves to take out outflankers.
- Let him take first turn if you can.
-I would take total warrior/blaster spam and blaster born
-Haywire scourges might help, again on board if night fight, DS if not night fight.
-If you get first turn you should be able to just overwhelm him with massed AT fire. I know my standard list would if I was gambling for a first turn or in night fight. Get in close and he is SOL as his ordinance now has a chance to hit his own tanks. A vendetta will kill one thing a turn, whoopdeedo.
Standard list for me is 3 blaster born, 6 warriors with blasters, 8 raiders with DLs and a Venom. Thats 17 targets I can shoot at with a fairly good chance of hurting. If its a one off game and not a tourney my Razorwings would have Dark lances and likely I would bring at least one ravager. If a tourney my razors are about useless against this until troops start being forced out of their transports.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 19:30

Quote :
Hmmm, from experience a DS army will not work unless your dice are really hot that game.
We have a thread , reports and people on forum who prove otherwise. Also DS would be extremely tasty next edition. You will be able to get several units to Reserve Groups so they arrive at one time and there is higher probability of doing so.

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Tropheus
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 19:48

Quite aware of the article, I wrote it.
If your dice are going well for you then yeah it will work. Getting stomped at ard boyz when I landed perfectly almost everytime only to have my lance batteries run out come the shooting phase sucks when my opponent's shooting phase comes up(I literally had half my army land on the second turn, in blast pistol range and I killed a single chimera and not a single stun except a manticore). Note this is my main list so I know how it works fairly well. I might run it in an upcoming tourney but its a laugh/fun list you cant count on. I guess it just depends. If it was a night fight starting I would say to hell with DS and start with everyone but the fighters on the board. If not or I dont get first turn I would DS and take the 50/50 odds.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 19:49

Well , just wait for July then and play what good now till then.

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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 19:56

Oh yeah. I already added some comments on the DS tactica. I might be alone at my store but I hope that "leak" comes true. It looks great for us and all the armies I play.(I tend to play very reserve heavy, fast armies, even my marines lol)
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 21:43

It is true...read Baron Sathonyx rules - they are written for 6th edition "Add +1 for roll who determinge deployment zone", there is no such roll in 5th ed, it was even clarified in FAQ so it made sense in current rulebook.

And there is such an exact roll in leaked rulebook. So changed or not so much changed this rulebbok is what we will see in summer.

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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 03 2012, 12:04

Thought I would bring this back up after yet another fruitless outing against my mates IG list of doom, 7 chimera (lasers and HB), 4 hydras, 3 vendettas (3 TL LasC) and a colossus.
He also has master of fleet to screw reserve rolls and 4 chimeras have inf squads with AC's. The other 3 have melta toting vets.

Anyway last night we played DoW, annhiliation. I go first .

So both 1st turns nothing happens due to nightfight etc.
Turn 2 I umload 23 darklight weapons into him. I get 2 cannot move or shoot, 1 can't shoot and take a LC of a vendetta. Thats it, right there the game is finished.
His turn 2, I lose 1 ravager, 1 venom, another ravager can't shoot, 1 raider cant shoot, another cant move or shoot and a venom is immobilised. That is with limiting his targets with screening and cover. I also lose a few trueborn, that i had dumped into cover.

My turn 3 I shoot my avaialbale darklight, this is 13 weapons. I immobilise a vendetta and get a can't shoot on another. I take a scatter laser off a chimera and another can't shoot as it's haywired by wyches.

His turn 3 and the slaughter continues. At the end of this I have 1 raider/warrior squad, 2 trueborn, Archon, 2 wyches and an immobilised venom on the table.

Turn 4 I shoot down and wreck a vendetta and get can't shoot on a squad of hydras. We call it there as I would have just picked my remaining models off the table.


In summary a poor 1st round of shooting destroyed the game. Our supposed speed is a non-factor against this list, Hydras, vendettas and the colossus eliminate it. Even the chimera load outs equal or better or range. Hiding is difficult against vendettas due to their height and if they fire at you then 90% of the time you are taking the skimmer off the table.
If the IG player knows anything about the army you cant target the Hydras behind the chimera wall, while they can ping away at you. Its a nightmare. I actually believe we can beat it maybe 1 in 10 games, but we need a good 1st round of shooting, a BLOS terrain heavy board and good luck.

I've played against my mates list a few times now to let hime get used to it. I've used a long fang and 4 living lightning priest SW list and a Chaos Marine list with auto-cannon havocs, oblits and a LR against it. The chaos list came closest to beating it, primarily due to the LR being so hard for it to take down. Eliminate the Vendettas and it's down to short range meltas to take it down. Unfortunately we have no AV 14.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 03 2012, 12:46

Does your local group use IA units? Reaper showed itself extremely well against Mech IG.

Parking lots eats a Haywire Large Blasts, and a single Targets gets D3 of those.Upgraded ones 2-4 Glance 5-6 Pen.The vehicle itself is like Dark Eldar fireprism (only with no problems of centering blast on the vechicle, if it hits - it will be haywired), i was extremely pleased by its performance.

Also in case of Vendetta keep in mind that they cant use Flat-Out save against ram atacks.Equip some raiders with Shock Prows.
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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 03 2012, 13:35

I recently beat my long standing rival that got me into 40k tabletop. He did have a mix of platoons and mechvets plus psykers in chimera, but he still lost. How? The answer is quite simple - a lone Talos through a webway portal.

I cannot recall my list I'm afraid, but it went along the lines of:

1500 points

Archon, Clonefield, Venom Blade, Combat Drugs, Ghostplate, Blast Pistol, WWP

Haemonculus Ancient (oh yes, I went there), Liquifier, WWP

Blasterborn x4
Venom with dual SCs

Blasterborn x4
Venom with dual SCs

Kabalite warriors x9
Splinter Cannon
Raider (Lance, FF)

Wyches x9
Razorflail
Raider (Lance, FF)

Beastmasters x2
Khymerae x10

Ravager (Lances, FF)

Razorwing (Lances, SC, FF, Monoscythe x4)

Talos (Liquifier, TL Haywire)

Haemy sat with Wyches while Archon sat with Warriors. Combat drugs roll of 6, meaning a pain token from the start. I went second. Razorwing, Beastmasters, Talos come from reserve.

What happened was that I completely overwhelmed him with potent targets, making the decision of focusing something down incredibly difficult. He decided to blow up the Haemie boat first, leaving my Archon to dart up to midfield and place the portal. As everything advanced, he was harder and harder pressed to choose targets, and that's when the Talos came in. Originally intended as a bullet sponge, he instead wreaked havoc in his tank line, smashing up a command squad, Basilisk and two chimeras in rapid succession, while the Beastmasters and Archon cleaned up the rest.

I found that Talos has incredible psychological effect. It is enough to plant that portal and have him know that the beast will soon come out of there to push him on the edge. Should he focus down Talos? Or shoot at the Ravager, Razorwing and two Blasterborn Venoms that are flying around? Focusing one of them only results in the other rampaging around unpunished.

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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 03 2012, 16:07

@ Siticus
Well done on the win, what was the IG list you were facing.
I see only 6 skimmers in your list and from the way you describe what happened it sounds as though the IG had a round of shooting at you before you moved to deploy the portal.
The lists I regularly face have 15 vehicles, troops all mounted in chimeras usually with an autocannon in 4 and melta vets in the other 3. If I don't get first turn I face 16 twin-linked auto cannon shots from hydras, 9 twin linked las cannon shots from vendettas, up to 7 scatter lasers, 3 HB's and another 4 auto-cannons, finished off with a colossus shot.
With all due respect a WWP list would get smeared across the table before the portals went down without first turn. Even then by redeploying the IG would simply move out of range of your WWP in their turn and then tear through whatever came out it in subsequent turns.


@ Azdrubael
Yeah the reaper would be nice, but this list is strictly for 40K tournaments with no comp scores and no IA or Forge world. It's brutal out there.
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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 03 2012, 17:36

The IG list had a platoon split into two squads of 20 and 30 dudes with Autocannons, autocannon heavy weapons squad, 3 chimeras (one with Psykers, one with metlavets, one with command squad that was decked out in flamers), Hellhound, Leman Russ (Demolisher I think, the 3 HB/ Battlecannon variant), Basilisk, Marbo. All except Marbo were lined up along the entire long table edge. It's more of a mixed list, not straight up meltavets in chimeras with Hydras everywhere.

Honestly, I would still recommend a Talos or two. In my case, Ravagers always, always fail to deliver, whereas Blasterborn in Venoms do the job much more reliably. In your case, Hydras should be the top priority to kill, chimeras/Vendettas being second.

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Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 03 2012, 18:47

If the IG player knows his stuff you can't even target the Hydra's behind the chimera wall. All you can see of them is the weapon barrels, meaning you cant target them but they can target you. So to get to them you have to destroy a chimera or 2 to open a hole to target them. They are not spread out they are usually in a parking lot occupying the middle third of his board edge.
My list runs 3 squads of 4 trueborn and a blaster archon. I can get the hits just get poor results on the damage rolls due to most of them being glancing only. AV 12 is a nightmare.


Last edited by kenny3760 on Sat Feb 04 2012, 14:32; edited 1 time in total
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Yadahr of the Stolen Star
Hellion
Yadahr of the Stolen Star

Posts : 34
Join date : 2011-12-23
Location : The thrice-cursed subrealm of Shaa-dom

Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 03 2012, 19:38

if you have enough cover, i would suggest a raider spam list (don't know if that is an official list type). 3 squads of trueborn with DL's and blasters mounted in raiders with DL's should at least take out three tanks. rest of points should go to warriors with blasters & DLs mounted in raiders.

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kenny3760
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Posts : 462
Join date : 2011-06-15
Location : Inverness Scotland

Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 12 2012, 01:32

I can officially confirm the way to beat mech IG is with squads of wyches with haywire grenades, FnP, and a large dose of good luck..

Seiously against this army wyches wit haywire grenades is the way to go.
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PostSubject: Re: Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them?   Mech Imperial Guard... is there actually a way to beat them? - Page 2 I_icon_minitime

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