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 Waste of Darklight?

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AiEthimar
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AiEthimar

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PostSubject: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 03 2012, 18:38

I am unsure if this should go in the tactics section, but I can't think of another place for it so here goes. Granted I have only played a handful of games with my new Kabal army, I was wondering if some of my tactics were off against a GK player in particular. He only had one psyfledread and a landraider w/ an inquisitor+arco/death cult passengers. I dedicated one squad of 3 Blasterborn to his dread, and while never achieving more than a weapon destroyed after penetrating about 75% (lots of 1s and 2s for damage results), felt I had that weapon fairly suppressed. The rest of my Darklight- 2 ravagers, 2 other Blasterborn, and my 3 Reaverborn heatlances went toward the 'Raider and after that became a non issue I sent most of it after his terminator squads. Was this a waste of resources in people's minds or simply using what I had to shoot what I could? What are people's thoughts on this? Do people dedicate 1/2 units w/ Darklight to suppress one threat and if it doesn't work out, move on to the next threat, or do you focus fire on something dangerous until properly suppressed, then move on, and risk leaving other large groups/threats? I know there have been whole tactica articles written on this kind of thing concerning how much of our precious shooting resources to dedicate to high threat enemy units, but how does the community here actually play? I think I am more of the "dedicate "x" amount of resources to one target and if it doesn't pay out, plan next turn accordingly" Thoughts my fellow children of darkness?

AE

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 03 2012, 18:51

I prioritize targets by need and work from there. So for me your situation might look something like this;

1. Psyrifle Dread is primary 'kill me' threat, must deal with.
2. Landraider is only third most dangerous thing, but is full of infantry and I want to pop it so my Venoms have something to shoot.
3. Some other random threat - let's say a Predator for kicks, it can hurt me but isn't assured omglolwtf like a Psyrifle nor will it open additional shooting targets.

I'd then figure out which units were in range of which targets and would fire them in roughly this sort of order;

1. anti-mech shooting that can only shoot the Dread.
2. anti-mech shooting that can only shoot the Landraider.
3. anti-mech shooting that can only shoot the Pred.
4. At this stage I would be looking at what the above accomplished - then I would be looking for things with multiple targets and firing them at my threat list in priority order.
5. Anti-infantry shooting/assault.

Hope that makes sense.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 03 2012, 19:18

I always start shooting the most dangerous vehicle, and don't stop shooting it unless it gets at least supressed (so I'd shoot the Psifledread to death). But if shooting is not useful enough (as it was the last time I played, I only managed to destroy 1 dread and 1 drop pod with 20+ lances in 5 turns), then the rest of the army acts in response to the futility of the kabalites aim...

People usually says that Darklight is our only tool to deal with tanks. I'd say that while it's our main weapon of choice to destroy vehicles in the SHOOTING phase, they're far from being our last chance to deal with them.

Take Haywire grenades for example (in Wych units). They make your combat troops able to tarpit AND destroy dreadnoughts (one of the worst units you'll fight with as a DE), to "tarpit" and destroy vehicles (surround them and cross fingers if it explodes!!) and to destroy (not tarpit) tanks. If you want to stop a tank or make it unable to deploy the infantry inside it, surround it with your vehicles instead (you can charge it with your HG wyches at the same time).

So, while Darklight can destroy or suppress enemy vehicles from afar, don't forget to take other tools to deal with them, just in case. Apart from HG Wyches, you can take Beastmaster's Razorwing Flocks, Talos, Shock Prow Raiders, or others. In some cases, even hellions with FC (2 pain tokens) can be good tank hunters. Just ask the codex!

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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 03 2012, 19:35

For me I would match up my weapon systems according to their type of weapon and their threat range towards my weapons and my suppression range.So I tend to match up the most likely weapon that would be able to do the most effect upon the unit that I am targeting and then work down all the way to the least effective weapon. In practice, my battles tends to be rather erratic as I would swing back and forth between units as my weapons would now have more optimum targets (hence why I use tokens to remind myself which units have already done their job).

Target priority is definitely very important in 40k, no unit shall be underutilized in my books. I will make sure that I use my things optimally, and in some cases excessively.

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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 03 2012, 22:42

I'm a very superstitious gamer, so when I want something dead.. I throw everything I have at it. I rarely split fire unless my target is either out of range or LoS. If I have 20 lances and there are 4 things on the table I need gone, I will start with 20 lances at the first and make my way down the chart.
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AiEthimar
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 03 2012, 23:58

@Archeonlotet wrote:
I'm a very superstitious gamer, so when I want something dead.. I throw everything I have at it. I rarely split fire unless my target is either out of range or LoS. If I have 20 lances and there are 4 things on the table I need gone, I will start with 20 lances at the first and make my way down the chart.

How well does this strategy work for you? Have you been caught with your pants down so to speak because you couldn't suppress the things that really needed it, or does simply starting at the top and working down on threat priorities do enough damage for you in your games?

AE

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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 04 2012, 01:26

@Archeonlotet wrote:
I'm a very superstitious gamer, so when I want something dead.. I throw everything I have at it. I rarely split fire unless my target is either out of range or LoS. If I have 20 lances and there are 4 things on the table I need gone, I will start with 20 lances at the first and make my way down the chart.

I would not call it superstitious, but instead I would say determined.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 04 2012, 01:53

@Crisis_Vyper wrote:
@Archeonlotet wrote:
I'm a very superstitious gamer, so when I want something dead.. I throw everything I have at it. I rarely split fire unless my target is either out of range or LoS. If I have 20 lances and there are 4 things on the table I need gone, I will start with 20 lances at the first and make my way down the chart.

I would not call it superstitious, but instead I would say determined.

Having a bit of Snakeyesitis, I would call it sensible. Shoot it 'till it's dead! Twisted Evil

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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 04 2012, 04:12

@Eldur wrote:

(surround them and cross fingers if it explodes!!)

You actually don't want it to explode as it will hurt the Wyches back.

Best strat is to Immob. or Stun it in the shooting phase, then charge it in the same turn, as you will be hitting it on a WS comparison, plus the Dread fights back with 1 less Attack. Your goal will be to blow weapons off, as the haywires will be putting out more glances than pens. This may take 2 or 3 assault phases (2 game turns) but at least he's not shooting at the rest of the army.

Also, each grenade that gets though goes towards determining the winner of the assault - 4 grenades that you roll for damage table means 4 "wounds" inflicted. In this case, 2 may loose 2 Wyches, but he suffered 4 grenades so you don't break.
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hellios
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 04 2012, 04:40

[quote="1++"]
@Eldur wrote:

(surround them and cross fingers if it explodes!!)

You actually don't want it to explode as it will hurt the Wyches back.

He said cross fingers if it explodes and not cross your fingers that it explodes... So basically if it blows up you had better start praying and not pray that it explodes in your face.
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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 04 2012, 06:03

@AiEthimar wrote:
How well does this strategy work for you? Have you been caught with your pants down so to speak because you couldn't suppress the things that really needed it, or does simply starting at the top and working down on threat priorities do enough damage for you in your games?

I find it works very well. I have yet to deal with an IG parking lot, but I've been pleased with the results it has gotten me against other armies.
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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 05 2012, 06:25

@Thor665 wrote:
I prioritize targets by need and work from there. So for me your situation might look something like this;

1. Psyrifle Dread is primary 'kill me' threat, must deal with.
2. Landraider is only third most dangerous thing, but is full of infantry and I want to pop it so my Venoms have something to shoot.
3. Some other random threat - let's say a Predator for kicks, it can hurt me but isn't assured omglolwtf like a Psyrifle nor will it open additional shooting targets.

I'd then figure out which units were in range of which targets and would fire them in roughly this sort of order;

1. anti-mech shooting that can only shoot the Dread.
2. anti-mech shooting that can only shoot the Landraider.
3. anti-mech shooting that can only shoot the Pred.
4. At this stage I would be looking at what the above accomplished - then I would be looking for things with multiple targets and firing them at my threat list in priority order.
5. Anti-infantry shooting/assault.

Hope that makes sense.

This is how I do it basicly.

Usualy puts up my Ravangers so they can shoot at mulitple targets if my blasters cant shoot them out.

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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 07 2012, 11:19

What I try to aim for is having multiple targets for each unit so that if the priority target is gone then there is a secondary one available to shoot at. Not always possible but it's something to look at, so that you are not "wasting" any darklight.
I also try to use short range weapons, ie blasters, heat lances, first as these are less likely to have a secondary target available. In your example I would go for the dread, then land raider in that order initially. However if the land raider got too close to my lines it would become the priority as at that range it has the ability to threaten more of my army.
It's also important to take into account the potential amount of return fire that could come your way if, your plans go awry and nothing goes down in your turn, (been there, got the T-shirt). This will affect whether you go after several units or just one, can you make use of BLOS to protect you from non-targeted units or are you in a desert where it's a turkey shoot.
I would also highly recommend the use of darklight to remove terminators especially Palladins.

Another aspect is too overload on the darklight in your list, I am currently running a 1750 point army with 31 darlight weapons on 15 platforms, the number of platforms is almost as important as the number of weapons. This gives you more opportunities to target different enemy units.
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AiEthimar
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 04:14

kenny, how do you have 31 darklight weapons on 15 platforms in a 1750 list? I am truly intrigued. And I thought I did a fairly good job of having the short range, middle, and long range shooting go in that order, and I was trying to enure that my longer and mid range stuff had multiple targets as needed, I was more just wondering whether or not people thought it was a bit of a waste of darklight to instakill termies/paladins provided they fail their 5++

AE

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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 04:43

504 for 12 blasterborn in raiders - 15 dark light
410 for 3 units of 5 warriors with a blaster and blast pistol sybarite in a raider - 8 dark light (one unit lacks a blast pistol and sybarite)
315 for 3 ravagers - 9 dark lights
270 3 units of 3 wracks in raiders - 3 dark light
195 Archon & court in raider - 1 dark light
hammy

I have 36 dark lights in 13 platforms for 1749 (assuming my math is correct).

I'm not sure how you can even get 15 platforms in a list as no fast attack choices grant a transport or are a platform themselves. So the most I can see being in any list is 2 for HQ, 3 for elites, 6 from troops and 3 from HS which adds up to 14 platforms. I too am intrigued Razz This is of course under the assumption that platform = vehicle.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 05:44

Platform = unit the way he's using it. So Trueborn in a Raider = 2 platforms.

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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 06:26

Then I guess I have 36 darklight weapons in 19 platforms for 1749. Huzzah.
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Waste of Darklight?   Waste of Darklight? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 09:13

See here for my list http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t1990-2012-1750-tournament-list

The good thing about it is that it still pumps out a fair bit of splinter fire as well
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