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 Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.

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Painjunky
Wych
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PostSubject: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 30 2011, 09:39

Wyches starting with a heamy make excellent point efficient tarpits, no-one disputes this. Unfortunately i just can’t bring myself to put a heamy in a wych unit or to take a cheap heamy as the HQ for what is obviously a kabalite or wych cult army.

I love the DE fluff. In my head heamies lead coven armies or units of wracks or grots in other armies. Wyches fight with awesome speed, skill, grace and most importantly beauty. The Heamies and their creations don't and aren't. To put them together would ruin the spectacle of the wyches in combat.

Because of my take on the fluff my wyches never start with a pain token unless they roll a 6 for their drugs. Also I don't always give them haywires. Wyches are for gladitorial hand to hand combat not for sticking bombs on tanks, again im not disputing how effective this is, its just my take on the fluff.

I use my wyches as hammers not tarpits. 7-9 wyches + Hek with Ago in a raider with ff as an escort for a Succubus with Ago in a wych cult army or as a harem/bodyguard for a horny Archon with Ago, Shadow and Drugs in a kabalite army. This unit usually starts in reserve as does the rest of my army, hides turn 2 or 3 when it comes on setting themselves up for a 3rd, 4th or even 5th turn charge.

They can wipe out a MEQ squad that has been whittled down to 5 or less in previous turns by venom SC fire, thus leaving my surviving anti-infantry fire free to target other units. They now have FNP and with a bit of careful placement can consolidate into cover ready to claim an objective next turn, engage a new unit or both. Used this way they usually hammer the last few nails into my opponents coffin. They attract a lot of attention thus taking the pressure off what's left of my army in the last few turns.

The inclusion of an archon or succubus or both in large games (2250pts+) means my army might not be as competative as a pure tourney army but im ok with this as they kill more and have a greater impact on the game than a cheap heamy, if used this way. In Australia, at least where i play, you don't have to win all your games to win the tournament.

Im not telling anyone how to make their lists or play their games. For me winning against an experienced general is not enough. Personally I have the most fun using a competitive list that makes sense and fights the way it's supposed to (fluff-wise) and still winning.

Thanx for reading and if you too play your wyches this way or you think im out of my mind please post a comment.
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 30 2011, 11:47

I've sometimes used 9 wytches with a succubus. They can chew through most things that aren't TH/SS terminators, but you better hope they don't get shot before they get a token.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 30 2011, 15:44

If you run a venomspam list, it is my experience that you can widdle down a unit to be small enough for the wyches to whipe out quickly and pull a free pain token, for me its wheither or not that 50 points is really worth it. Thats 5 more wyches, and for 5 points its a venom!!! (without the extra cannon, but still) Plus I would rather use my HQ slot for something that is useful, like Baron

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 01 2012, 09:03

And it has been my experience that whittling down MEQ squads to 5 or 6, charging in a squad of 7 Wyches, you will kill half on the charge, then get the remaining guys in THEIR assault phase - which really has to be the ideal result for Wyches, plus all happening in game Turn 2, most of the time.

Venoms are great support units for making this happen.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 01 2012, 10:55

Spamming basic S3 punches does not make a hammer unit.

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Gdead909
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 01 2012, 13:18

I agree. Wyches are great tarpits but hammers they are not. If you have to whittle it down so that they can chew through it I believe ur hammer arguement just went out the window. Do u whittle down squads for incubi to make sure they can chew through it? And I have learned the hard way not to let them get shot before getting them into combat or before a pain token. Wyches? What wyches all I see is a smoking knife and some bloody spandex lol

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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 01 2012, 18:05

I don't think it falls on anyone's shoulders (with the exception of the people who write the codex) to instruct people in the way a list "should" be played. The limits are already enforced by the codex.

Trying to explain how someone is building a list wrong from a fluff standpoint is folly right from go. In the sprawling world of 40k, can anyone possibly argue that any combination of army choices couldn't be found somewhere? I'm confident that if someone presented me with an army list, i could conjure an interesting backstory as to how it would happen. So in effect, if someone tells me the lists I play don't follow the fluff of the army and I'm playing the codex "wrong" they are essentially telling me my imagination is wrong.

If someone has a way they choose to play their wyches, the OP for example, then more power to them. Enjoy the game and the list you write. If I choose to field a unit of wyches with a hammy and stocked to the nines with haywire grenades, please don't presume to tell me I'm playing the army wrong.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 04:26

1++, Raneth and Gdead, you are right. Spaming S3 does not make a hammer, but the unit i described ie, an archon or succubus with ago + a hek with ago + 7-9 wyches + drugs WILL kill about 5 MEQs on the charge and pick up a pain token.

Not a deathstar but a great hammer to use against a small unit (devs or melta delivery unit) or a unit that has been whittled down in a PREVIOUS turn thus freeing up your anti-infantry shooting. Nothing to be sneezed at from a scoring unit!

Archeonlotet, second last paragraph, first sentence, read it!

Please read the whole post before commenting thanku.
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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 05:12

To my thinking, I would rather use my wyches gladatorial skills to jump and dodge along with their speed to rush up to a tank or transport, surround it, plant my grenades and then ensure no one is able to get out alive.

Fluffwise, hellions would be the bomb, but the rules don't really help them out.

So while I do disagree with your interpretation of the fluff, that does not mean you are wrong or I am wrong, it means we have a different view.

My wyches kill some fools when they are trying to escape a wreck vehicle, THEN look for any leftover survivors from my shooting.

I do agree that a succubus is an awesome HQ, but haemi's are to way of think some sadistic pain dealers handing out killy juice to get the wyches worked up into a frenzy.

Anyhoo, S3 does not a hammer make, nor do wyches have enough attacks to overcome T4 or power armor. I'd rather not have my wyches try to tackle a depleted squad if there is any armor close by. If they were more like bloodbrides and Str 4, then thats a different story I likely would agree more, or if they had better access to power weapons.

In a competitive sense, especially here in the US, with all the blood angels and grey knights wyches don't measure up. The pain token makes them a viable tarpit unit so the hek or succubus with agonizer can do its work, but the agonizer will need a couple turns to take out a squad of marines.

My opinion is they are a very good tarpit unit that over time can deal with a MEQ if properly equipted but make a much better tank hunter...

my 2 paint tokens


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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 07:27

Thanx Gar. The strength 3 is not the hammer part (altho drugs can help). The hammer part is the 2 agos in the unit. One from the HQ, one from the hek, 10 potentially 12 ago attacks.

As i said i believe tarpit and tank hunters is an excellent/the best way to use wyches but they can be used as a scoring hammer unit. It takes 2 agos and different tactics/mindset.
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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 08:25

Painjunky, same paragraph last sentence. I did read your whole post (indeed the entire thread) before I posted and saying "playing a competitive list that makes sense and fights the way it is supposed to (fluff-wise)" implies that if someone else makes different decisions with their list it doesn't make sense or play the way it is supposed to.

I do not believe wyches start out as a hammer unit. Including IC's meant to be a hammer inside a unit of wyches makes a hammer IC in a tarpit. However, if you score a lucky roll on combat drugs to get +1 str then acquire a second pain token they can become a decent hammer. An avalanche of s5 attacks may not punch through armor, but if it forces that many more saves, they can produce quite a few more wounds. This is why I enjoy de so much because the purpose of a unit can evolve over the course of a game in ways no other army can.
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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 10:10

I do not think of wyches as hammers or tarpits, I just use them because they helped balance my list out in more ways than one.

One of the ways they actually help my list is by being themselves. For some reason everyone is afraid of the wyches and assume that they are close combat monsters rather despite the fact that some of these people are jaded and seasoned veterans. I just use this to my advantage and just boost them as far ahead as I could possibly go. Saved me quite a few ravagers, raiders and venoms by doing just that.


The other way they help my list is with their versatility. They are a decent combat unit, with the added ability to tarpit, and they can also bust parking lots with their haywire grenades. Depending on how the situation is unravelling and what kind of opponent I have, they would jump into the action towards any threat that my list may find a challenge to face, from psyriflemen, trygons to that pesky IG blob.

The last thing I tend to use my wyches for is essentially escorting my Archon and becoming its bodyguard. Invunerable saves are the way to go when I am out hunting that hammer unit with my Archon.


These traits helped in rounding up my list's weaknesses and also provide me with alternative methods of taking out threats other than shooting a certain unit to death.


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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 10:35

Crisis_Vyper says it best as usual!

Archeonlotet, Haha! I thought that sentence would be enough but if it wasn't, trust me i don't care how anyone makes their lists or plays. Nuf said on that subject!

The majority (not all but the majority) of units in the lists i see at my club or on the net are 5 MEQ or very similar in terms of resilience in other armies. Largely due to the melta-mech state of the competative game. If a unit can spank them in one round of cc i call that unit a hammer (not a deathstar) but thats just me.

There is another way to play wyches that is not very common but effective, very fun and fluffy. It requires different tactics, like playing defensively early in the game (often in reserve) and aggressively later in the game. They can HAMMER the last few nails into the enemies coffin.

Just wanted to know if anyone else plays them this way (i suspect there are many too afraid to speak up). If im the only one thats cool. It makes me feel special! Lol!
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Gdead909
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 12:57

Well I would love to say there are people at my local game store that play like u do Pianjunky but I am the only one who has seen the light and plays DE. I have the pretty standard groups. Some Smurfs some BA some Orcs Some Nids and of course GK and Crons. But I am the lonely Master of Pain there. And I mostly run hellions, but I can see your point about running wyches. It was just when you called it a hammer my mind went to the bigger units like Termies. I dont consider 30 boys with a nob with a PK a hammer unit either even if they can be very mean under the right circumstances.

I guess it all comes down to terminology. Deathstars are another grey area. I was told a DS wasnt until u spent close to 400 points on one squad lol

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 18:35

@GAR wrote:
To my thinking, I would rather use my wyches gladatorial skills to jump and dodge along with their speed to rush up to a tank or transport, surround it, plant my grenades and then ensure no one is able to get out alive.

Fluffwise, hellions would be the bomb, but the rules don't really help them out.

This is really where it's at, it comes to fluff vs performance. I'd gladly pay 1-2 pts more per Wych if they had Rending, like their fluff implies, and more readily consider them a 'hammer' unit. Alas. So it is that my girls have to restrict themselves to hunting tanks and bogging down anything my Incubi can't deal with at the time.

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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 18:42

@Gdead909 wrote:

I guess it all comes down to terminology. Deathstars are another grey area. I was told a DS wasnt until u spent close to 400 points on one squad lol

It depends on how big of a threat is the unit to be honest.


My personal style of play with any army tends to lean towards making the whole list a gigantic deathstar rather than having one unit or so becoming the deathstar. If they kill one unit I can always say this with confidence;

Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. L

With the Dark Eldar however, I could say that for each flesh wound I get, I bleed badly but that's due to our nature. Razz

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 19:21

@Crisis_Vyper wrote:


My personal style of play with any army tends to lean towards making the whole list a gigantic deathstar rather than having one unit or so becoming the deathstar. If they kill one unit I can always say this with confidence;

I agree wholeheartedly. Redundancy is key


With the Dark Eldar however, I could say that for each flesh wound I get, I bleed badly but that's due to our nature. Razz

Yep, the first one is not to bad, but after 2 or 3 its like an artery has been severed and you better end it quick before you bleed to death.

Wyches to me are tank hunters first, going all out to do as much damage as possible to any and all armor along with trueborne. The the rest hopefully is clean up with mass venom splinter fire and warriors over the next 3 turns.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 03 2012, 05:21

Maybe i am misusing the term "hammer"... My bad, ill stop using it.

What im really trying to do with this unit is make wyches try to do a job that incubi would do better for cheaper. Only problem is incubi don't score... Oh and I already filled my elites with AT trueborn. I just can't do without these guys. Sad

Tactics-wise i love to have the option of wiping out a unit on the charge (need pain tokens as they won't be starting with a heamy) and direct my AI fire elsewhere. I suppose tarpiting would be just as effective but i usually don't charge till turn 3-4 at the earliest so need to get stuff done asap.

Killing stuff is more my style than trapping stuff.
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POwell0
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 03 2012, 20:46

I run my Wyches very similar Painjunky. I dont use Heamies as they are just a waste of points IMHO and i prefer a combat HQ to a support HQ. I use 3 squads of 7-8 in smaller games (1500pts or less) or 3 or 4 squads of 10 in larger games and they always do me proud.
I have never used them as a 'tarpit' as thats just a waste of potential and i leave my AT to my Blasterborn, ravagers etc. Hurl them forward ASAP and assualt everything in their path. The only thing i keep them away from is TH/SS termies unless absolutely necessary but they create problems no matter what race/unit you are using. All my local gaming buds know better than to let Wyches charge them Very Happy
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 16 2012, 13:52

I'd agree with Painjunky. I'm just starting out collecting DE, but my planned list doesn't include Haemonculi, wracks or grotesques. I wanted an army that felt right to me in relation to the background of DE as raiders, and didn't feel that slow units was the way I wanted to go.

That's not to suggest that another person's take on creating a list is wrong, just that my preference was for sleek and fast units.

Just for the record, my two HQ options are an archon on a venom with 3 Sslyth bodyguards, and a Succubus with hydra gauntlets that I'd attach to my raider mounted Wych squad.

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Gdead909
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 16 2012, 14:04

u cant take just some of the court u have to take one of each member

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 16 2012, 14:49

Thanks for the heads up, guess that'll be a raider they're getting a lift on instead!

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POwell0
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches without heamies. Hammers vs tarpits.   Wyches without heamies.  Hammers vs tarpits. I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 16 2012, 20:49

@ the_burning_eye - Just to let you know that your Archon HQ is incorrect, you cant just take 3 Sslyth you have to take at least one of every court option. I made the same mistake at first
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