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 How to use Mandrakes

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ZaGstrike
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PostSubject: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 16 2011, 13:56

I was thinking, for Dark Eldar players who're just beginning and were planning on using mandrakes in their army but were unsure as to how the best way to use them would be then this thread would contain some more experienced players advice on mandrake tactics.



Personally my idea on how to use them is to take both them and the decapitator (his name starts with K and is very long and difficult to remember). When your mandrakes are within baleblast range of your enemy have the decapitator appear within the squad. With his pain token now the entire squad can suddenly shoot at the opponent, hopefully getting the pinned result. After that all that's left is to assault, with the decapitators power weapon hopefully reaping enough carnage to earn a second pain token in one or two turns of combat.

EDIT: Also, mandrakes are an anti-light infantry/snipers/artillery unit. You need to get them close to the valuable yet vulnerable parts of your opponents army, not throw them at HQ units or most elites choices.


Double EDIT: Damn >.< ok i made a newb mistake, could an admin please move this to the tactics board?
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 16 2011, 15:48

the problem is the Decap doesnt have the IC special rule, and he cant be deployed like normal, but your idea to get baleblast T1 does work (actually I think its the only way to run them) but not how you think it does. You need a haemie in a transport and jump him out, joining the squad. That pain token will give them baleblast, and allows them to shoot something T1. Sadly thats alot of people for a terrible shooting profile.

Mandrakes are really the only terrible unit in our army. Im guessing they thought that having outflank will cause them to be good, but so much competes with them in the elite slots, its hard to make them worth wild. Although they do have some very awesome models.

Decap is just as bad. Since he has to be deployed with DS, and he cant charge the turn he comes out, he pretty much just sits there and waits for death. Yes, he can shoot his pathedic baleblast, but its not going to do much when he is by himself.

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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 16 2011, 16:06

I have found the best use for Mandrakes (if you made the mistake of purchasing them before you knew how they underperformed) are counts-as-wracks. The models are very cool after all, and it is a shame to not use them!
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Feline
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 17 2011, 03:56

To mirror the people above, yes, how to use them is not. Were KheradUseless an IC he'd be useful, if Mandrakes had grenades they might be useful, if... If only they thought about it some.
As is they are overshadowed by every other entry in the Elite section (shock full as it is of awesomeness, let's not forget), and that includes Harlies, which is the one selection I'm really dying to find a use for and can't. Yes, you could outflank them (the Mandrakes) to fine effect, but on the other hand you could have a bunch of Wyches (or, slot-wise, Bloodbrides) in a raider who'd be more useful and you could place them more in line with your battle plan.
And it annoys me something fierce, the fact that this unit is not actually bad (and has some beautiful sculpts) but it's not good enough to fit into our army lists. Which is something to be grateful these days, since that is the one unit, rather that the whole FOC section or something similar.

[Edit]ALSO: You could put them in the Dais with Vect as an alternative to Harlies in the FULL MECH concept, but since he doesn't have a PGL you'd more or less depend on him to kill most of the first unit to give them something to make them somewhat (LD test, shah right) viable against troopers in cover.
Tell me again why:
1) Stealth doesn't grant Move Through Cover, and
2) Move Through Cover doesn't grant immunity to the "Assaulting through cover" rule
However, if one believes in the statement that "all Codices since X are written for 6th ed." we have a reason why both our MCs have "Move through cover" as an extraneous rule, which might make Mandrakes better that they are now (but seeing how they are not Space Marines I'm not holding my breath. It's the whole "best sculpt-worst unit" thing that the Pyrovore got (Best? Maybe not, but one of the best for sure)
[/Edit]
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 17 2011, 09:06

Players who are just beginning better not use mandrakes at all.
They are not terribly bad, but in most cases they will not do any impact at all, and are competing with units who will , with one of the best units in codex.

Maybe later, they will see for themself how they fit in.
In 6th edition there will be strategem to give them assault grenades, or so it is written is pdf compilation.
So before next July just paint, they are awesome minis and use them as eye-candy.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 17 2011, 17:49

Unfortunately (or should I say fortunately) they may have their plasma grenade problem fixed in 6th edition if the stratagem rule pans out - for some points you can have offensive grenades for your units (this would include incubi too). So I really think they were designed with 6th ed in mind and just thought they would take the flak in 5th.

I am not trying to make them sound better than they are but you have to take real care in how you use them and you better have a plan.

I have used them twice and they were "fun" to play, not competitive really. In one game I put them for outflanking in a wwp list. Choose to have them emerge from the portal and luckily they came out with a Cronos. Cronos luckily found some marines to vortex and managed to deliver a token to the mandrakes so they can baleblast the weakend marine squad. Between the Cronos and the mandrakes they managed to kill the marines, barely and went on to baleblast a squadron of land speeders (which they managed to immobilize one after it went flat-out, lucky). I pretty much used them to harass the remaining land speeder for the rest of the game I believe they had 2 tokens at that time so I was also looking to furious charge the speeder as well. They survived the game.

The other time was with the decapitator and I decided to outflank them instead of using the portal. I mistakenly charged them into marines that were in cover and the decap failed the charge completely. The mandrakes lasted 3 assault phases before being overcome.

The decapitator was lucky in that the opposing list had a tech marine that I declared as the decaps prize. After failing the charge and then deciding to let the mandrakes die to marines he decided to get his trophy. He took a turn of fire from the tech marine and servitors but thanks to his stealth he managed to only lose 2 wounds. Next turn the decap charged and the tech and servitors again failed to remove his last wound, the decap rolled a "6" to lop the tech marines head and in the next phase killed off the remaining servitors. It was a kill point game and the decapitator hid in cover for the rest of the game trying not to die. If the decap had Urien's regen it would probably ease some of the pain but not having that IC status really hurts.

So from my experience the mandrakes would be pretty decent if you are going to use them in a battle against a T3 army. I would say they would do well against IG and Tau and would probably be just OK against Eldar and Nids (well, maybe not nids). With the predominance of marine armies out there I would say the mandrakes are just not going to do terribly much there. Maybe tie up a devastator or long fang squad for a turn but not much. They would have to combo charge with another solid cc unit or just be used for clean up.

If I had a chance to change them for GW I would consider:

Making them "troops" if you take kheradruakh
Allow baleblast to work like the old horrorfex (each unsaved wound is -1 to leadership)
Use the old Mandrake markers rule for deployment

As for the Kheradruakh:

Give him regen
Allow him to assault the turn he appears
Hit and Run would be hilarious
Or any of the tyranid lictor rules (I think it is the lictor that has some special rules that would fit him).

Conclusion:

The list will have to have a plan to get the Mandrakes a token, period.
They will have to be used in combination charge with another CC unit.
Once they get a token they are probably better off just baleblasting all game.
The Decapitator does not make them better, the Decap could care less.
Remember they are demons (daemons) when facing the GK

Good luck and happy hunting!!!

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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 18 2011, 19:25

Paperweights.

As they are just now, thats all they are good for.
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Marquis Vaulkhere
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 18 2011, 19:54

I would use the models as gene-stealer subs in Apocalypse games. other than that they are pretty bad IMO. I guess if you where lucky with the rolling they could be used to assault the opponent long range anti raider; Lootas, longfang, heavy weapon teams & so on.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 18 2011, 20:06

@kenny3760 wrote:
Paperweights.

As they are just now, thats all they are good for.
+1.
They look really good in a display case too. Rolling Eyes

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 18 2011, 20:41

Fail due to Failcast.
(this joke never get old)

I actually see use for them - infiltrate within 12", then assault Devastators/Long fangs/whatever can shoot crap out of our vehicles.

If 6th ed allow units to take stratagems AND we would get specific DE Pain Token stuff - they may be decent. No joke.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 18 2011, 21:57

Quote :
I actually see use for them - infiltrate within 12", then assault Devastators/Long fangs/whatever can shoot crap out of our vehicles.

Strike at I1, lose combat in our first phase, retreat , unit can shot raiders anyway.Devs maybe, Long Fangs...i dont know.Oh, i know, i know. Heavy Weapons team. Yes, they can do it. Maybe.

Actually Dakka Dreads seems like ok target for Mandrakes. Yes they wont do crap do him, but at least they have 5+ invule and dakkadread have only 2 atacks so we have chance to stay turn or 2 in him buying us time for the price of elite slot and close to 150pts.

(Damn i hate GK dakkadreads , i really hate em, it even costs less then said unit of Mandrakes)
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 18 2011, 22:44

And Your problem with that plan is.... ?



I think they should have enough bodies to survive assaulting 5-6 marines without pistol/sword combo.
Spoiler:
 

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Mandrakes   How to use Mandrakes I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 19 2011, 00:38

I seem to recall having crunched those numbers and found the Mandrakes pretty lacking.
Hurm, assaulting through cover, and let's say you're using 10 Mandrakes...

10 Mandrakes Vs. 5 Devestators
6 Marine attacks - 3 hit - 2 wound = 1.33 dead Mandrakes (we'll say 1)
27 Mandrake attacks - 13.5 hit - 6.75 wound - 2.25 dead Marines.

10 Mandrakes Vs. 5 Long Fangs, presumed successful Counter-attack
16 Marine attacks - 8 hit - 5.33 wound - 3.55 dead Mandrakes (let's say 3 to be nice)
21 Mandrake attacks - 10.5 hit - 5.25 wound - 1.75 dead Marines

So, Devastators can be stomped fairly well.
Long Fangs will probably kick your teeth in and hand them back to you while laughing about it.
I would hazard that mandrakes would win both combats, but it would be painful to beat the Wolves, and would leave the squad unlikely to defeat much else.

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