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 Drazhar HQ?

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Gdead909
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PostSubject: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 15 2011, 08:50

Does anyone else think they should of made Drazhar an incubi unit upgrade (like SM scout Sargent telion) instead of a HQ choice. It makes more sense due to him being a bodyguard and not a leader.
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 15 2011, 09:51

Is there any word regarding bodyguards in the new Incubi or Drazhar entry?

Incubi are now more of an aspect temple , and Drazhar behave like their Phoenix Lord.
Why do you call him bodyguard? He gives squad Exarch abilites like a Klaivex do, all of them + make all of them Fearless. Thats a leader to me.

And rulewise you dont even want him stick around with squad , he is far better if he can break coherency and chose side of battle where there is no powerfists. I would have use him , if he costs about Lelith or little higher , 180 or so. Right now he is hellishly expensive for what he do.

Yes, he will probably mulch any non invul squad on his own , but he costs more than any such squad. Althou , when the model come i will surely try him , that concept of one man killing machine is very exclusive in 40k.
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 15 2011, 10:05

He needs a decent invulnerable save at the very least... and knocking a few points off wouldn't hurt.
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 15 2011, 10:14

i think he is fine... 2 games and so far so good...

with darting strike and PFP he should be durable has heck! The ability to manipulate the combat by tieing up fists and IC then jumping away is huge!

plus if you use him with incubi he is around 60 points less thanks to the klaivex powers he conveys (hence no need for one to boost ld etc)

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 15 2011, 11:40

Massaen wrote:
i think he is fine... 2 games and so far so good...

with darting strike and PFP he should be durable has heck! The ability to manipulate the combat by tieing up fists and IC then jumping away is huge!

plus if you use him with incubi he is around 60 points less thanks to the klaivex powers he conveys (hence no need for one to boost ld etc)

I see what you're saying but have you ever faced a squad of GKs that are going before you? Personally I think it is stupid giving a squad of space marines with power weapons the ability to strike before or at the same time as any Eldar or Dark Eldar unit. Incubi should be able to butcher anything that isn't as tough as hell (AV or high T) and like any unit it can be drowned by gribble...
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 15 2011, 13:52

Yep - faced GK with them... incubi are not so hot... but Draz still fights first. He should net 3-5 kills...

Trick with GK is the basic strike marines are only OK at combat and expensive to go with halberds... should you charge 10 of them with 2 psycannons and 8 halberds you face 9 attacks, 5hits, 3 wounds and then you will kill 1 marine per incubi... you will win...

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 16 2011, 10:10

Massaen wrote:
Yep - faced GK with them... incubi are not so hot... but Draz still fights first. He should net 3-5 kills...

Trick with GK is the basic strike marines are only OK at combat and expensive to go with halberds... should you charge 10 of them with 2 psycannons and 8 halberds you face 9 attacks, 5hits, 3 wounds and then you will kill 1 marine per incubi... you will win...

Maybe the GK player is a ^%^$&% %%^& but I was talking about some librarian power that makes the squad I10?
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 16 2011, 10:42

Only works in GK turn, even more must use this in Movement Phase.So if you charge him he wont have chance to have this, and turn later he have all the chances to be dead.
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 16 2011, 11:26

Yep - the problem lies with PURIFIERS with halberds... all of the other choices are fine... but purifiers should be 32 odd points with halberds...

Incubi one on one WILL win a fight with basic strike GK troops easily...

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 16 2011, 22:15

Azdrubael wrote:
Only works in GK turn, even more must use this in Movement Phase.So if you charge him he wont have chance to have this, and turn later he have all the chances to be dead.

Ah I think he made the mistake of thinking he can cast it in any player turn Very Happy that will help a bit! Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 27 2011, 17:20

I would pay dang near anything to get this guy to work. I have a man-crush on the Incubi and Drazhar and have for quite some time. As I've just recently started to purchase DE as an army, it makes me a sad panda that he is lackluster and I have to go with 2 generic Archons instead.

I may just say screw it and field them anyway, just because. There are several GK and IG players at my LGS but I think they're all pretty chill. 9 Incubi and Drazhar in a Raider should wreak some havok while my MSU Warriors take and hold objectives. At least, in theory...

Is there any advice from those that do field Drazhar on how to best use him and his charges? Anything at this point would be great.

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 27 2011, 19:32

he is a monster against MEQ, give him the 2 extra attacks and let him go to town. Against anything bigger (or maybe even ICs) the extra strength helps. Remember his exarch powers, and basically point and click (well, stay away from power-weapons and invuls like any other incubi)

I would never take more than 4 incubi anyway (point heavy and any more than 4 and an IC blow out a squad imho) but since they dont have grenades, I would only take maybe 6 and Draz... but 9 is going to be a heavy point sink... I wouldnt advice it

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 28 2011, 04:18

Ugh, I keep reading that. I didn't get the whole "no grenades" thing until I broke out my rulebook again and then... all I could do was sigh.

Perhaps to go along with my chosen path of partial Venom Spam (too much Spam gives me gas) 4 Incubi and Drazhar in a Venom then?

I was thinking more along the lines of having the unit pop out of a WWP mid-field around turn 2 or 3 and mopping up. Along those lines, can an HQ even do the whole 'deploy from a WWP' thing anyway? I guess I never thought about that, really. My plan was to have an Archon try to reach the middle of the board (or where ever it was needed most) and plop down a WWP and then have a big ol' hairy unit of Incubi with Drazhar deploy along with a brace of Talos Engines. In the meantime my Venoms would be zipping around doing their... Venom thing, as well as the Voidraven.

Humph...

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 28 2011, 05:35

Haems are cheaper portal drop options than Archons.

HQs can pop out of WWPs just fine.

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 28 2011, 08:17

I run Draz with 6-7 incubi at present but he never stays with them... he wanders away ASAP to fight alone. This way he is not restricted with darting strike and can manipulate the combat as i see fit.

I had him take out 30 guard, a hydra and lemun russ demolisher in the last game!

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 28 2011, 15:17

So This just hit me. For those with a codex (Im at work atm) the min squad for Incubi is 3 right??? So what if you do 3 incubi, Drazhar, and a PGL Archon. Its alota eggs in one basket, but it should be hilarious in a friendly game. Comments???

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 31 2011, 14:10

Drazhar 230 + 3 incubi 66 + archon with PGL, Shadow field, and Agon 135
Dedicated venom with SC 65

496 points but is a massive squad shredder

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 01 2012, 17:32

That sound absolutely groovy there! I love it.

But, since you posted it and I'm assuming you can find your butt with both hands, then that kinda answers the question of "Can more than one IC join a unit?

And the whole "Drahzar going off by hisself" thing, isn't that just begging to get shot to hell and never make it to combat in the first place? I suppose since he'd be drawing a lot of fire then that would, in effect, be fire not directed at your other stuff, but still... That'd be 230 pts down the drain.

I don't know, I'm still trying to wrap my head around these new fangled rules. I cut my gaming teeth on the original Rogue Trader in the late 80s and am pretty much just getting back into the game. There's been fits and starts over the years but nothing concerted. I guess I just don't want to smack of "Newb" when I actually get a game in with my new and shiny DE... with Drahzar prominently displayed as the HMFIC.

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 04:09

He runs alone when you are ready to charge, not before. I will set up some examples and take some pics...

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 04:52

Mephiston cures Drazar or incubi love.

So many BA lists have Kharn's gothic mancrush in their armies it almost always make Drazar and incubi less than pointless to take.

Grey Knights just compound it.

I like the fluff on this guy as well, but I find more often than not he get hisself deaded real quick....

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 06:28

Mephiston should not be allowed to charge incubi - and charging him should be a last resort. They should be going after the squishy contents of all those razorback!

As for grey knights - with the exception of purifiers with halberds, point for point incubi win most scenarios of combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 14:10

Oh. Old mephi kave a lot of drawbacks actually. My lootas love him.
Drazhar HQ? 609px-Supertank_Mk.II

Typo. Love to *shoot* him.


As for Mephi charging Incubi, I'm not so sure. He have magic jump pack AND fleet, so basically he assault like our Beasts (except moving faster when not charging), 19"-24". Only Incubi in transport can outrun him.

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 02 2012, 18:26

Mephy is fast but really hates Splinter Cannons. Massaen has it right.

As far Drazhar Himself, it's not for me. If I ever wanted anti-halberd tech on my Incubi I'd probably settle for a Klaivex.

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 03 2012, 03:48

Having run Draz a few times now i can comment on a few things...

1. I will always run him alone. The number of times i have charged an uber hero, had the enemy pile in then dart away to fight joe infantry is awesome. It allows draz to bite off what should be more than he can chew. Combat res almost always goes in your favour and i have typically won by 2-3 every time... in some cases more. If your not fearless its bad news thanks to his initiative. He basically disembarks the incubi raider alone and his squad go to smash face elsewhere... so he is not shot up.

2. Unless you have FC, or are fighting T3 or less, always go with the +2S. the difference in average kills is small but the consistent results favour the 2 handed option. With FC you will also manage S7 vs rear AV... nice!

3. Just about any 2W hero type HQ is toast against him. Only a warding stave will save a target in most cases... against a MEQ hero with a 4++ he manages 1.94 wounds with the 2 hander option thanks to prefered enemy... and thats before onslaught... which has pretty good odds of going off.

I even did up the following showing his effectivness...

After hearing how bad Drazhar was on various forums I thought I would put it to the test in Mathammer form. Drazhar was given 2 profiles so we can also compare demiklaives in the combats. I also figured adding Lilith and Vect would be relevant…

First up – all the DE characters were given the charge against a 10 man MEQ unit with a single powerfist on the sarge – your typical tactical squad.

Drazhar with +2 attacks fairs worst with 2.33 kills. Lilith manages 2.44 and Drazhar with +2 strength manages 2.77. Vect hits a whopping 4.14 kills thanks to preferred enemy.

Points per kill puts Drazhar in 4th and 3rd place with Lilith in 2nd and Vect 1st.

That said, what happens when the Tacticals fight back? Lilith takes 0.48 unsaved normal wounds and 0.09 unsaved powerfist wounds. Vect takes 0.27 and 0.13. Drazhar takes 0.27 (+2A) or 0.26 (+2S) and then 0.83 from the fist.

What makes this so interesting is that against normal attacks, Drazhar is the most survivable of the 3 due to his higher toughness and 2+ save. Yes he has the highest chance of a power fist dealing a wound but with darting strike he may be able to avoid it all together. Vect is second to draz against normal attacks but has a massive 13% chance of dying to a powerfist sarge! That’s terrible for a 200+ point model. Lilith is more balanced with only a 9% of instant death against a near on 50% chance of taking a wound from the remaining marines.

Giving them all furious charge changes the game again…

Drazhar with +2 S fairs worst now 2.77 kills as before. Drazhar with +2A manages 3.11 and Lilith 3.66. Vect stays at 4.14 kills thanks to preferred enemy but gains nothing from furious charge.

Points per kill puts Drazhar in 4th and 3rd place with vect in 2nd and Lilith jumps to 1st.

When the Tacticals fight back - Lilith takes 0.39 unsaved normal wounds and 0.09 unsaved powerfist wounds. Vect takes 0.27 and 0.13. Drazhar takes 0.25 (+2A) or 0.26 (+2S) and then 0.83 from the fist.

Again Drazhar takes the normal marines with little danger but the fist sarge will hurt. Vect remains as before but Lilith takes less normal wounds due to higher kills.

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar HQ?   Drazhar HQ? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 03 2012, 05:34

Massaen wrote:
Having run Draz a few times now i can comment on a few things...


What makes this so interesting is that against normal attacks, Drazhar is the most survivable of the 3 due to his higher toughness and 2+ save. Yes he has the highest chance of a power fist dealing a wound but with darting strike he may be able to avoid it all together. Vect is second to draz against normal attacks but has a massive 13% chance of dying to a powerfist sarge! That’s terrible for a 200+ point model. Lilith is more balanced with only a 9% of instant death against a near on 50% chance of taking a wound from the remaining marines.


It is what you said about Vect (Who with his pimp mobile is certainly too expensive in my opinion.) being power fisted is a risk... and obviously once his field breaks... Which will happen if you throw enough attacks at him... he is in trouble. Draz has the same kind of issue but he is vulnerable to heros... This man is supposed to be a damn god among the DE when it comes to one and one combat and the DE are pretty good in general. In fact he wins a lot of his duels against power weapon wielding opponents so we must assume he is just too damn good to get hit... In game however he is at risk in 1 on 1 battles and does better against mobs...

Personally I think for his points he needs a save... even a 5+ would make a huge difference. This is the main criticism of the Eldar phoenix lords as well but some of them are a wee bit cheaper... Dire Avenger dude has got a 4+ (I wouldn't feel bad about him being able to punk Drazhar if he can because he is the daddy of the phoenix lords.) and Maugan-Ra can be used in such a way as not to need one... Fire Dragon guy is most vulnerable to shooting (if you are running him with fire dragons) and the striking scorpion and Banshee exarch come in last among the phoenix lords as far as I'm concerned...
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