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krayd
Thor665
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Sycorax
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PostSubject: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 22 2023, 18:33

A few ideas I have been kicking around (along with our tau captives)

… a raider full of mandrakes (to protect mandrakes and give them a platform to deliver MWs from). Has anyone tried this?

… a very satisfying result of 2 wrack units with liquifiers in a raider (4 liquifiers total). Has anyone tried this one out? It’s had great results against dark angels, IG, and tyrannids for me so far (largely on turn 2/3).

I would love to hear your thoughts on these raider ideas/ any practice with them.

Dark mirthfully,

Sycorax
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 23 2023, 15:43

I think a decent number of people have done the liquifiers in a raider plot - it is indeed pretty solid. I personally don't use it too much simply because I find the liquifier a little bit lackluster, so prefer to bring Kabalites up in raiders as with blasters/shredders and poison shooting I find them a little bit better against a wider range of targets. That said, the Wracks do also provide some better survivability and assault options and it wouldn't hurt to get them up the field a bit if you have other models to camp your home objectives. I think this will serve you well.

I've never tried the Mandrake thought. It would probably be okay, as Mandrakes do have decent shooting. The only debate is, with their infiltration do they really need the ride? Generally they can get in on a target of choice anyway. So the only win for putting them in the Raider is more mobility for a second shooting attack versus the cost of a Raider and the cost of not getting their infiltrate. I would tend to think the infiltrate is overall a more powerful and useful ability and, as mentioned above I think Kabalites aren't shabby when it comes to shooting out of boats and serve well against most targets all by themselves.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 23 2023, 16:29

The mandrake idea seems fun, but the fun is over once that raider gets shot down. I would much rather have the mandrakes popping around the table retrieving battlefield data and/or contributing to Engage on All Fronts.
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Sycorax
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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 23 2023, 20:52

I suppose it’s worth testing with another units’ raider. My point of the move is to give the mandrakes those ablative wounds, a 4/5++. That survivability boost helps take shooting units and make them last at least one extra turn, if not more. I’m thinking of trying it as a n opening gambit- I’m a little shy of having those mandrakes get shot up after their first round of shooting. Full disclosure- I haven’t played mandrakes, but their softness worries me enough to want to try the raider on them…

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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 23 2023, 21:01

@thor665, based off your feedback, the use of the mandrakes/raiders could be comboed for a t3/t4 move with a weakened mandrake unit- though they are mobile enough (for 2 moves) without the raider. The mandrakes grant a semi-poison tongue element to the dark heart Kabal… as I mentioned earlier, this idea is all about rounding out the mandrakes’ main weakness (see most dark eldar infantry :p) with the raider’s sustainability. With the current anti AP meta, I’m seeing more MWs as a way around all those super save armies… I think I’ll try it out with some proxies and report back! One battle with my early game sacrifice of the mandrake ability, one game where I see how long I can keep those mandrakes alive before trying a turn 3/4 punch with their MW abilities.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 23 2023, 23:43

Sycorax wrote:
I suppose it’s worth testing with another units’ raider. My point of the move is to give the mandrakes those ablative wounds, a 4/5++.  That survivability boost helps take shooting units and make them last at least one extra turn, if not more.  I’m thinking of trying it as a n opening gambit- I’m a little shy of having those mandrakes get shot up after their first round of shooting.  Full disclosure- I haven’t played mandrakes, but their softness worries me enough to want to try the raider on them…

Mandrakes on foot have a built in -1 to be hit, while the raiders do not.

Perhaps 6 mandrakes in a venom might work better? It's -1 to be hit, has 4+/5++, and is a lot easier to hide behind terrain than a raider. Though I would still rather be using the mandrakes to score points than having them sit on a transport. Also, with armor of contempt gone, we don't have to worry nearly as much about not being able to punch through powered armor units. Large units of wyches can do that just fine (again).

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 24 2023, 00:02

Sycorax wrote:
A few ideas I have been kicking around (along with our tau captives)

… a raider full of mandrakes (to protect mandrakes and give them a platform to deliver MWs from). Has anyone tried this?

Sort of.

I've tried 5 Mandrakes in a Raider with an Archon. The Archon also had the Soul Seeker, so that the entire Raider had 18" range weapons.

I liked the idea thematically and (in theory) mechanically - as I prefer units that can put out some shooting, rather than being pure melee.

(I mainly did this in 8th, when I couldn't have 10 Mandrakes and a character).


I have to be honest, much as I wanted it to work, I found it a very lacklustre unit. Granted, I didn't have a full unit of Mandrakes, but even accounting for that I found their shooting to be extremely ineffective. This does double for Archon's glorified water pistol.

I might try a unit of 10 (or, more likely, 2 units of 5) at some point. The thing is, even from a thematic perspective, I've all but abandoned the Soul Seeker. So for a mixed-role unit, I'd be much more interested in one that synergised with an Archon (or Succubus) with Parasite's Kiss. Razz


That aside, the major issue with the Mandrake-Raider is that if I want that sort of shooting then I really don't see the point of taking Mandrakes over Corsair Voidrevaers (which, thanks to the new detachment, can be taken as de facto troops).

10 Mandrakes is 150pts and puts out 20 S4 AP-1 MW on 6+ shots at 18"

10 Voidreavers with Blasters + Wraithcannon is 135pts. They put out 14 S4 AP-1 Splinter shots at 12" (24" with Splinter Racks), plus 2 S8 AP-4 D1d6 Blaster shots at 18", plus a S10 AP-4 D1d3+3 Wraithcannon shot at 18". Oh, and all of their weapons auto-wound and count as having rolled a 6 to wound on a natural 6 to hit.

Granted, they lack the defences of the Mandrakes and they're worse in melee but, for a 10-man shooting unit, I'd take them in a heartbeat.


Sycorax wrote:

… a very satisfying result of 2 wrack units with liquifiers in a raider (4 liquifiers total).  Has anyone tried this one out?  It’s had great results against dark angels, IG, and tyrannids for me so far (largely on turn 2/3).

Out of interest, have you considered 4 Medusae in a Venom/Raider? Same profile as the Liquifier Gun and you get the same number of shots, but for fewer points.

Could even have a unit of Wracks and 4 Medusae for a total of 6 Liquifier shots.

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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 24 2023, 00:45

I have not!!! I actually haven’t considered Medusae… interesting Smile my next purchase (and my rule is, I have to paint and build up my army before my next purchase) is going to be corsairs anyway, so giving your idea a shot is already more streamlined than getting mandrakes. Now I wanna try out that Medusa’s unit with proxies Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 24 2023, 00:52

Krayd,
That’s a good point, the venom better matches their existing profile. I can try both ideas and see how it goes - Venm and fewer mandrakes should be easier to mold into lower points lists than a whole raider mandrake complement.

As a note, I’ll also have to try mandrakes out on their own to see how their roles feel by comparison.
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Niurvindol
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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 24 2023, 06:28

From my experience with mandrakes(I usually run a 6 man unit, sometimes a 5 or two 5s)
They aren’t reliable for combat compared to our heavy hitters.
Mandrakes and even scourges for the most part fill a role as very mobile objective based, task units. Getting engage or behind enemy lines, sometimes retrieving data.
The -1 to hit is ok, generally keeps them alive for an extra turn, but their damage output pales in comparison to our melee options and as far as shooting goes, kabalites with a blaster are insanely cheap and have obsec.
Mandrakes are one of my favorite units as far as theme goes, but they are very niche.
On that note, I’m thinking that covens are going to be pretty bad moving forward.
With the free Meltas marines are getting and the extra cost on wracks, the feel no pain is hard to justify.
I’ve resorted to obsidian rose for shooting, putting my msu 5-man kabalites with a blaster at 28” to keep out of the line of fire and drop a marine with every shot.
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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29 2023, 13:54

IMO, the best shooting units in our army are DT Wracks.

Getting 2 shots per 5 man squad, with flat D3, decent AP, and +1 to wound. They are not the greatest, but can hurt most things we need to hurt.

Still, combat is our bread and butter. Our units are better suited to it, and our Secondaries are geared towards it. But nothing stopping you from throwing some DT wracks around Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29 2023, 14:14

fisheyes wrote:
IMO, the best shooting units in our army are DT Wracks.

Getting 2 shots per 5 man squad, with flat D3, decent AP, and +1 to wound. They are not the greatest, but can hurt most things we need to hurt.

Still, combat is our bread and butter. Our units are better suited to it, and our Secondaries are geared towards it. But nothing stopping you from throwing some DT wracks around Wink
I think the basic Kabalite is the best value shooting unit (decent argument for Trueborn to be really the best, but you pay so much for them they kind of need to be the best, and I'm not sure their cost to value ratio is actually that great)

But...

DT Wracks are certainly not bad, though they are not great versus vehicles, and you also pay the opportunity cost of making any other Coven units you're bringing less good because you're not taking melee/durability buff with your Obsession.

Kabs on the other hand all have Obsessions that boost shooting to some degree (better poison, re-roll attack, re-roll wound and get better range, etc. etc.) and since they're all basicaly shooty anyway you're not giving up on what they do in the first place. 5 Kabs with a Blaster will be a little less durable than the Wracks, but will be cheaper, and have better anti vehicle tools as well as still having solid poison for chipping - and against non multiple wound infantry (sister, guard, et al) will easily perform better as well.

I'm too lazy to run the numbers, but it seems like the only world the Wracks are doing better would be against multi-wound non-vehicle units, with the caveat that they cost more and weaken your Grot and Talos options.

My $.02

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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29 2023, 15:31

So for my DT argument: I haven’t been running my grots and talos in my lists yet, so focusing on that liquifier has been the reason for DT as I mostly take wych cults (sue me, I love them of old… though I’ve been CB over CoS cuz… CoS has been so much) with trueborn and one kabalite squad as my Kabalite reps. I definitely agree with the shoots power of Kabal (especially with PT poison upgrades and splinterwracks on their raider). As I move towards more coven, I’ll probably be exploring more distillers of fear or PoF…

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PostSubject: Re: Crazy raider ideas   Crazy raider ideas I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 29 2023, 16:48

Thor665 wrote:
fisheyes wrote:
IMO, the best shooting units in our army are DT Wracks.

Getting 2 shots per 5 man squad, with flat D3, decent AP, and +1 to wound. They are not the greatest, but can hurt most things we need to hurt.

Still, combat is our bread and butter. Our units are better suited to it, and our Secondaries are geared towards it. But nothing stopping you from throwing some DT wracks around Wink
I think the basic Kabalite is the best value shooting unit (decent argument for Trueborn to be really the best, but you pay so much for them they kind of need to be the best, and I'm not sure their cost to value ratio is actually that great)

But...

DT Wracks are certainly not bad, though they are not great versus vehicles, and you also pay the opportunity cost of making any other Coven units you're bringing less good because you're not taking  melee/durability buff with your Obsession.

Kabs on the other hand all have Obsessions that boost shooting to some degree (better poison, re-roll attack, re-roll wound and get better range, etc. etc.) and since they're all basicaly shooty anyway you're not giving up on what they do in the first place. 5 Kabs with a Blaster will be a little less durable than the Wracks, but will be cheaper, and have better anti vehicle tools as well as still having solid poison for chipping - and against non multiple wound infantry (sister, guard, et al) will easily perform better as well.

I'm too lazy to run the numbers, but it seems like the only world the Wracks are doing better would be against multi-wound non-vehicle units, with the caveat that they cost more and weaken your Grot and Talos options.

My $.02

I still have to advocate for Corsair Voidreavers as being by far the best shooting troops we have access to:

10 Voidreavers with 2 Blasters and a Wraithcannon is 135pts, while 10 Kabalites with 2 Blasters and a Dark Lance is 115pts. So the Voidreavers are a little more expensive.
However:
- They effectively already have a subfaction ability - any roll of 6 to hit is converted to an automatic 6 to wound.
- Their basic shooting weapon is far superior. Rapid Fire 24" S4 AP-1 D1 Shuriken, and are especially good with their aforementioned trait. They do about ~150% more damage against Marines even compared with Poison Tongue Kabalites.
- As such, they can make far better use of a Raider with Splinter Racks than any of our actual troops.
- They can access the same Blasters as Kabalites (mediocre weapons but you're not losing anything and these still get the benefit of their trait).
- The Wraithcannon has a shorter range than the Dark Lance but it isn't heavy, has +2S and does an extra Mortal Wound on a 6 to wound.

Their only weakness is that they can't be used to fill compulsory slots . . . which is irrelevant as the AoO detachment has no compulsory troop slots unless you opt for such.

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