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Thor665
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panic
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PostSubject: 2v2 Tournament - Questions   2v2 Tournament - Questions I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 09 2022, 14:36

Greetings,

I have recently returned to the fold. A 2v2 tournament on the horizon, my ally to be Votann.

I am looking to play to their strengths: solid shooting & hard to shift. It is likely they bring:

Ymir (+4"range, -1AP at half range)
>1-2HQ
>3*10 Troops w/ Medpack
>1*5 Hearthguard
>1*4 bikes

I don't know your experience with 2v2, but I usually find the top tables cluttered with players running nasty terminator / elite high cost unit death stars or very skewed lists, lots of teleport. Tsons are utterly disgusting when paired with DG in this format. I don't expect this to be much different.

My initial thoughts are very mixed because his army is so damn slow. I have to keep him screened (wracks) but likewise I must push out to contest/flip/be a general annoyance while we score. "Votann must have maximum uptime with their shooting" is the rule of thumb really.
The list below is only 925pts of the 1k. I ponder bloodbrides, hellions, scourges..

Questions I have:
  1. Is Drazhar auto include?
  2. Is the Raider necessary? It feels like a high risk point sink - Draz,2xIncubi,Raider. Swap out for a venom? Or just dump it altogether & hold back Draz/Incubi as the counter charge?
  3. Running 6 scourges to be able to max score RND with ease, a waste of 72pts? Feel like we can just run banners instead to coincide with defensive approach instead but also love the ease of scoring 12 points for RND.
  4. General thoughts? I have most units available but not grotesques.



Patrol 1  - Connoisseurs of Pain

+ HQ +

Drazhar [-1CP, 145pts]
Hatred Eternal


+ Troops +

Wracks [6 PL, 80pts]

Wracks [3 PL, 40pts]

Wracks [3 PL, 40pts]


+ Elites +

Incubi [4 PL, 90pts]

Incubi [4 PL, 90pts]


+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [105pts]
Disintegrator Cannon, Grisly Trophies


Patrol 2 - Strife

+ HQ +

Succubus [95pts]
Hypex(Combat Drug), Precision Blows, The Triptych Whip, Show Stealer

+ Troops +

Wyches*5 [55pts]
Hypex (Combat Drug)

+ Fast Attack +

Hellions*5 [85pts]
Adrenalight (Combat Drug)

Reavers*5 [100pts]
Adrenalight (Combat Drug)


++ Total: [925pts] ++


Last edited by panic on Fri Dec 09 2022, 16:34; edited 1 time in total
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 2v2 Tournament - Questions   2v2 Tournament - Questions I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 09 2022, 16:27

panic wrote:
My initial thoughts are very mixed because his army is so damn slow. I have to keep him screened (wracks) but likewise I must push out to contest/flip/be a general annoyance while we score.
I agree, and think DE tend to have a lot of the tools that Votann could take advantage of and vice versa.


panic wrote:
Patrol 1  - Connoisseurs of Pain

+ HQ +

Drazhar [-1CP, 145pts]
Hatred Eternal
Draz is fine enough if you're committed to the Coven.


panic wrote:
+ Troops +

Wracks [6 PL, 80pts]

Wracks [3 PL, 40pts]

Wracks [3 PL, 40pts]
I will note that for the cost you're paying here I casually question the value of going Coven. If all you want is speed bumps Beasts work pretty well, and for a slight cost increase Hellions get you more options.

panic wrote:
+ Elites +

Incubi [4 PL, 90pts]

Incubi [4 PL, 90pts]
Incubi are good


panic wrote:
+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [105pts]
Disintegrator Cannon, Grisly Trophies
I saw you questioning the Raider above and my thought is almost why are you taking so few? You have a very melee oriented army and seem to be contemplating either footslogging them which is prone to let your enemy react and shoot them first (which neither wyches nor Incubi like) or you're going to sit back with them to countercharge which will defeat the point of you being the fast assaulty tool paired with the slow shooter or will just give up half the board control to your opponents.

If it were me I'd be taking more than one Raider/Venom because, yeah, a single one is a big target, but a couple of them become a pest that the enemy can't deal with and lets you strike deep and force them to deal with you and your boats while the LoV player pew pews away.


panic wrote:
Succubus [95pts]
Hypex(Combat Drug), Competitive Edge, The Triptych Whip, Show Stealer
This is fine.

panic wrote:
Wyches*5 [55pts]
Hypex (Combat Drug)
Is the Hypex because you're foot slogging them? I'd advise a Venom or Raider and taking Adrenalight personally.

panic wrote:
Hellions*5 [85pts]
Adrenalight (Combat Drug)

Reavers*5 [100pts]
Adrenalight (Combat Drug)
I don't love either of these. It's problematic because these are your core maneuverability so they can't be direct cut, so bear that in mind.

The Hellions are okay, but in the world where you're saying your goal is to make speed bumps for the enemy I note you're taking one of our best speed bumps and not using them like that, it looks like you want to use them as a light harassment unit. I will note that Hellions with Painbringer become T5 W2 and are very cheap, while still being good at harassing they also become surprisingly hard to kill as you can't just fire basic small arms into them to make them wilt.

The bikes, again, are built to harass but bikes are not inherently good at assault and you took an assault drug but nothing else to help them out. Painbringer plus Caltrops would make them a better tarpit. Working in a Blaster will allow them to be more rounded and deadly when hunting in the back field. They currently just feel like a lot of points for vague gain.

panic wrote:

  1. Is Drazhar auto include?
  2. Is the Raider necessary? It feels like a high risk point sink - Draz,2xIncubi,Raider. Swap out for a venom? Or just dump it altogether & hold back Draz/Incubi as the counter charge?
  3. Running 6 scourges to be able to max score RND with ease, a waste of 72pts? Feel like we can just run banners instead to coincide with defensive approach instead but also love the ease of scoring 12 points for RND.
  4. General thoughts? I have most units available but not grotesques.
1. I would say yes if you're committed to the Coven.
2. I would say yes, and would even include a second or go for a couple of Venoms - the point of your partnership is that you can threaten deep into enemy lines with assault tools and to do that most effectively you'll need mobility.
3. I think RND would net you more on average than Banners.

If it was me I'd probably rework the list into a single patrol to save CP, and let Wych units like Hellions serve as the screening/speed bump units and add some vehicles.
If you like your current setup, I'd probably drop the Reavers for a Venom/Raider for the Wyches and Succubus, add the Scourges, and swap the Hellion drug. Depending on those choices you could probably toss an aggie to the Wyches or beef up the Hellions a bit which would all be helpful.

Hope these thoughts are useful,
Thor.

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PostSubject: Re: 2v2 Tournament - Questions   2v2 Tournament - Questions I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 09 2022, 17:31

@Thor665 excellent review of this list, i like the way you think because you answered some questions i was asking to myself.
thanks a lot!
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PostSubject: Re: 2v2 Tournament - Questions   2v2 Tournament - Questions I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 09 2022, 17:33

That is bloody brilliant Thor, thank you! I will ponder this and report back..
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PostSubject: Re: 2v2 Tournament - Questions   2v2 Tournament - Questions I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 10 2022, 15:31

Ive never played in a 2v2 format, outside beerhammer with buddies.

How are you scoring points in this format? Using 2000 point Niphilim Missions? Can you take Faction Secondaries, and can your ally help score them?

Generally I would recommend you start by looking at how you plan on scoring Primary/Secondary points, then building a team around that.

DE bring a lot of fun tools to the team, and Draz+Incubi are one of the first.

Raiders could be helpful, if speed is your plan. Jumping a Raider full of Incubi+Draz could be helpful to Votan. However, I doubt you would need a Raider to help hold Objectives.

Bringing units explicitly to score Secondary objectives is a really smart idea. If your team is planning around RND, this would make a lot of sense. Wyches with Hypex (10" movement) are one of my favorite tools for this (especially when they start in a Transport for that sweet 3" disembark).

Be sure to practice deployment with your team before the tourney. Its very possible that you guys block eachothers deployment/movement if your not careful. He might not understand your plan, and you might overestimate his movement speed. Always sucks when you shoot yourself in the foot like that.

Lastly, be sure to have fun! People should be awfully afraid of your team, should be a great time.
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PostSubject: Re: 2v2 Tournament - Questions   2v2 Tournament - Questions I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 10 2022, 19:10

What seems a bit odd is 925 pts. Whats up with that?

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PostSubject: Re: 2v2 Tournament - Questions   2v2 Tournament - Questions I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 12 2022, 14:59

Zenotaph wrote:
What seems a bit odd is 925 pts. Whats up with that?
OP noted at one point in the initial that they still had a spare 75 and were debating what to spend it on and looking for some thoughts. It's not part of the tournament format, just spare points.

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PostSubject: Re: 2v2 Tournament - Questions   2v2 Tournament - Questions I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 12 2022, 16:36

Ups. I overread that. My bad.

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PostSubject: Re: 2v2 Tournament - Questions   2v2 Tournament - Questions I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 23 2022, 02:13

So, looking at the Votann stuff, it looks like they aren’t running any fortresses, so I think you’d be best taking hard melee and big guns to buff out the roster.
Drazhar is phenomenal, so is the Succubus.
Personally, I’d cut out the hellions, reavers, scourges, and wyches.
Unfortunately, with the armor of contempt buff, it’s hard to get reliable damage through. Especiallly if you’re wanting some durability, consider running at least one stack of grotesques.
Wracks are always great, but I do feel like you’d want some shooting.
Obsidian Rose can cover some of that.
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PostSubject: Re: 2v2 Tournament - Questions   2v2 Tournament - Questions I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 23 2022, 02:14

If it were me, I’d run something like this:
It’s heavy on raw damage and has a ton of msu and mobility.


++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [36 PL, 610pts, 3CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [3CP]: 2. Incursion (51-100 Total PL / 501-1000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Game Type: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim

Obsession
. *Custom Coven*: Dark Technomancers (All-Consuming)

+ HQ +

Drazhar [8 PL, 145pts]: Warlord

+ Troops +

Wracks [3 PL, 40pts]: As Detachment (Coven)
. Acothyst: Wrack Blade
. 4x Wracks: 4x Wrack Blade

Wracks [3 PL, 40pts]: As Detachment (Coven)
. Acothyst: Wrack Blade
. 4x Wracks: 4x Wrack Blade

Wracks [3 PL, 40pts]: As Detachment (Coven)
. Acothyst: Wrack Blade
. 4x Wracks: 4x Wrack Blade

+ Elites +

Grotesques [5 PL, 105pts]: As Detachment (Coven)
. Grotesque w/ Monstrous Cleaver
. Grotesque w/ Monstrous Cleaver
. Grotesque w/ Monstrous Cleaver

Incubi [4 PL, 90pts]
. 4x Incubi: 4x Klaive
. Klaivex: Klaive

+ Dedicated Transport +

Venom [5 PL, 75pts]: As Detachment, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [5 PL, 75pts]: As Detachment, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [21 PL, 390pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost

Obsession: Kabal of the Obsidian Rose: Flawless Workmanship

Raiding Forces - CP Refund

+ HQ +

Succubus [5 PL, 95pts]: 1 - Adrenalight (Combat Drug), As Detachment (Wych Cult)
. Agoniser & Archite Glaive
. Show Stealer (Strife): Show Stealer

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]: As Detachment (Kabal)
. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]: As Detachment (Kabal)
. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Elites +

Incubi [4 PL, 90pts]
. 4x Incubi: 4x Klaive
. Klaivex: Klaive

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [6 PL, 105pts]: As Detachment, Dark Lance

++ Total: [57 PL, 1,000pts, 3CP] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)
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