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 Ynnari ... confuse me

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeMon May 16 2022, 05:27

Hello everyone, this will be my first post here.

So, I have been a looooong time Dark Eldar player. I actually played them from the very beginning of the 3rd edition ALL the years we only got one crappy codex, till we finally got the long due makeover in 5th. I took a really long hiatus between ending of 5th till now, but the Ynnari storyline always intrigued me. FINALLY the Eldar storyline got advanced, and in such a cool and meaningful way. Also combining the two factions sounded like an awesome concept.

Well, fast forward a bit and this all falls appart Razz The story does stagnate, again, and the cool awesome codex combos got so many strings attached and loops to jump through, that it might be better to just stay with the stuff you know.

well, I skimmed through the new Ynnari rules, and read the topic here when the stuff got leaked, and yeah, its a totally bummer that you have to basically play CWE in order to play Ynnari. But on the other hand, the thing with "balance each unit out with one unit from the other faction" could kinda work.

What utterly confuses me, though, is the thing with how our warlords, relics and stuff intermix, if at all.

The way I understand it is this: if you play Ynnari, then all your basic alliances, obsessions, keywords and what not get washed away, and you get the Ynnari basic abilities, ie fight first and get ObSec, fair enough, with the exeption of dedicated transports. But I couldn't really find any rules regarding the relics. If I field an Archon, can he wield a Djinnblade, can a Succubus wield a Triptych-Whip? Or does he have to chose something from the CWE armory? Which doesnt work, because they cant wield the basic weapons that get upgraded.

And can Archons und Succubi use their basic warlord traits, or do they have to chose something else? Writing this all down it seems that they should use their own codexes stuff, but with this kinda rules you never know.

Also, whats the reasoning behind the Incubi point increase? They are somewhat comparable to Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions, but don't get the 5+ Inv save, yet lose their own power from pain save. Or is it, because of the battle focus and strands of fate rules? This whole thing seems to be super not-well-thought-through. Yet I am still willing to jumo through a few hoops to try to make it somewhat work.

I only play friendly matches with my friends at home, so a bit subpar powerlevel stuff is ok, we can work with that. So any input or thoughts would be welcome.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeMon May 16 2022, 06:28

Yeah, the points increase is kinda baffling- and I'll note your point of strands of fate and battle focus; you don't gain those from becoming ynarri, mind you, with faq even if you run non-strands of fate units in ynarri you still get strands, but as per SoF, you can't use it to affect the rolls of non-SoF units.

For relics: No. You'll find in the first sentence of the relic section in our codex that you need to have a Drukhari warlord to give a person a relic, likewise for Aeldari.

That being said, that's no reason to not run ynarri, I've found ynarri really fun, and am currently planning to run them in a local campaign.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeMon May 16 2022, 08:42

A lot of the Ynnari rules are a mess and need an FAQ. I've ranted about it elsewhere, but it's tremendously unclear what happens to aura abilities and psychic powers on Drukhari and Harlequin units that you take as Ynnari - the rules just state they lose the <Kabal>, <Wych Cult> or <Saedath> keyword and gain Ynnari/<Craftworld>, so what happens to, e.g., the Succubus ability that applies to <Wych Cult> units? Does it apply to Ynnari now or nothing at all? RAW I think it's the latter currently, but damned if I know what GW's intention is.

The points increase for Scourges and Incubi is a bummer, but it's a tax on them gaining the equivalent of an obsession. This is absolutely over-priced for both of them right now, unfortunately.

As Sarcron notes, I wouldn't let any of the issues with the faction put you off; it is actually really fun to run on the tabletop, and it feels like a very different way of playing any Drukhari units that you bring - you do actually have to put some thought into buffing them and applying pressure at the right places at the right time. The Yncarne is also an absolute wrecking ball and probably the most interesting unit in the entire game.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeWed May 18 2022, 06:45

Thanks mates! So I wasn't seeing things after all, lol.

Yeah, I still find the idea of the Ynnari super intriguing and will try to whip up a list sometimes this week. Have you found any combos or tactics with the Ynnari that are especially fun or cool to pull off? I would, obviously, build them with a Drukhari focus, as I dont own any Harlequin, but I could see me getting my hands on a few of those Skyweavers or what the rage was all about.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeWed May 18 2022, 09:38

Akumakaji wrote:
This whole thing seems to be super not-well-thought-through.

I honestly think this has summed it up for a long now.
When Ynnari were first introduced IU think GW had a plan, but very quickly after the whole plan went out the window, and now GW don't really know what to do with them. The Ynnari were introduced specifically to soup Eldar factions, and then the game moved in a non-soup direction and made the whole concept a bad fit.
I wouldn't be that surprised if Ynnari go away at some point in the future, or become something else entirely. Because they just don't work anymore, but it seems like new rules have to be included because otherwise their introduction needs to be retconned.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeWed May 18 2022, 12:11

Akumakaji wrote:
Thanks mates! So I wasn't seeing things after all, lol.

Yeah, I still find the idea of the Ynnari super intriguing and will try to whip up a list sometimes this week. Have you found any combos or tactics with the Ynnari that are especially fun or cool to pull off? I would, obviously, build them with a Drukhari focus, as I dont own any Harlequin, but I could see me getting my hands on a few of those Skyweavers or what the rage was all about.

The big combo to take advantage of is the Ambush of Blades warlord trait and then Jinx/Unbind Souls/Ancestor's Grace. That's a lot of psychic investment but giving a big unit of Wyches or Hellions the equivalent of -3 AP, 6s to hit auto-wound, and +1 to wound means they can mulch almost anything in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeWed May 18 2022, 18:14

Squidmaster wrote:

I wouldn't be that surprised if Ynnari go away at some point in the future, or become something else entirely. Because they just don't work anymore, but it seems like new rules have to be included because otherwise their introduction needs to be retconned.

Truthfully I think there is going to be a huge Slannesh vs. Ynnari (Aeldari as a whole) showdown in a couple years or so and it's going to be Edition/game changing as One of them will be folded into the other (my guess is slaaneshi daemons will become Ynnari Deamons so people who play slannesh deamons wont actually lose their entire army) ... The Aeldari factions will cease to exist (everything will be redone from top to bottom while still using the existing models) as Slannesh dying means they are freed from their torment but also shifts their souls mutating them into a more Chaosy faction under the new Chaos God Ynnead ... Cegorach will probably become something (idk what) to keep his precious Harliquins ... and the exodites will surface, rejecting the new Aeldari chaos God and will join a splintered Druhkari (followers of Vect) ...
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2022, 04:31

Archon_91 wrote:
Squidmaster wrote:

I wouldn't be that surprised if Ynnari go away at some point in the future, or become something else entirely. Because they just don't work anymore, but it seems like new rules have to be included because otherwise their introduction needs to be retconned.

Truthfully I think there is going to be a huge Slannesh vs. Ynnari (Aeldari as a whole) showdown in a couple years or so and it's going to be Edition/game changing as One of them will be folded into the other (my guess is slaaneshi daemons will become Ynnari Deamons so people who play slannesh deamons wont actually lose their entire army) ... The Aeldari factions will cease to exist (everything will be redone from top to bottom while still using the existing models) as Slannesh dying means they are freed from their torment but also shifts their souls mutating them into a more Chaosy faction under the new Chaos God Ynnead ... Cegorach will probably become something (idk what) to keep his precious Harliquins ... and the exodites will surface, rejecting the new Aeldari chaos God and will join a splintered Druhkari (followers of Vect) ...

Honestly, this gets bonus points for creativity and coolness, but this is way, way, WAY to radical for GW. They might give us a showdown of sort, if they finally decided to advance the Aeldaris plot, but nothing that would culminate in a definite ending and changing of the status quo. The hight of what could happen would be, that The Masque of Slaanesh, who has already fallen out of favor, IIRC, and was involved in the Yvraine plot, could switch faction and become enlightened or something, the first demon of Ynnead. And maybe we could field "restrained/reformed/passionless" deamonettes or something. But GW would never kill one of the main factions, they only ever do this do dwarfs (chaotic or squatting). ((and Exodites ... dayum, when was the last Exo army list in a white dwarff, 3rd or 4th edition?)).
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2022, 12:52

Archon_91 wrote:
Squidmaster wrote:

I wouldn't be that surprised if Ynnari go away at some point in the future, or become something else entirely. Because they just don't work anymore, but it seems like new rules have to be included because otherwise their introduction needs to be retconned.

Truthfully I think there is going to be a huge Slannesh vs. Ynnari (Aeldari as a whole) showdown in a couple years or so and it's going to be Edition/game changing as One of them will be folded into the other (my guess is slaaneshi daemons will become Ynnari Deamons so people who play slannesh deamons wont actually lose their entire army) ... The Aeldari factions will cease to exist (everything will be redone from top to bottom while still using the existing models) as Slannesh dying means they are freed from their torment but also shifts their souls mutating them into a more Chaosy faction under the new Chaos God Ynnead ... Cegorach will probably become something (idk what) to keep his precious Harliquins ... and the exodites will surface, rejecting the new Aeldari chaos God and will join a splintered Druhkari (followers of Vect) ...

I think you are half-right.

I'd certainly believe that this (or something very like it) was GW's original intention for Ynnari and that they intended to do it right at the start of 8th. I suspect they also intended to have Primaris Marines completely replace the firstborns as part of the same big shakeup (which would also line up with fairly substantial changes to the core rules).

However, they then saw the severe backlash when they killed off WHFB and replaced it with Age of Sigmar, which was practically dead-on-arrival.

Thus, GW scrambled to reverse their intended plans for a major shakeup of 40k and instead continued with the status-quo. Sort of. Because then they were instead left with the issue of having two entire Marine codices trying to exist on top of one another. Plus a faction that was supposed to be the future of Eldar but which currently consists of 3 special characters and some of the worst rules ever put to print.

I'll grant that this is speculation but it explains both why the most bloated codex in 40k has received an entire codex's worth of new units (because Primaris were supposed to be the replacements for Marines but are instead stuck awkwardly jostling with them for space), and also why Eldar has been treading water for half a decade (because the Ynnari-replacement was cancelled and GW clearly have no clue what to do with them instead).

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 01 2022, 15:18

Well, according to the new 40kstats site, Ynarri, within this month alone (5/1-6/1) have a 58% win rate, compared the the average Craftworld win rate of around 56% and average Drukhari rate of 51%. Granted, there have been far fewer games played with Ynarri, but it seems like those who are playing them, know how to play them pretty well. I do wish that I was able to see the lists that are being played, though.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2022, 03:36

krayd wrote:
Well, according to the new 40kstats site, Ynarri, within this month alone (5/1-6/1) have a 58% win rate, compared the the average Craftworld win rate of around 56% and average Drukhari rate of 51%. Granted, there have been far fewer games played with Ynarri, but it seems like those who are playing them, know how to play them pretty well. I do wish that I was able to see the lists that are being played, though.

Me too! I haven't been able to play lately, but I really want to play Ynnari. I do feel they've been a little slept on just due to the power throughout that codex, but I have no experience to back up that hunch. Interesting to see some data begin to support it, but could just easily be an outlier.


Here are the things I think are great about Ynnari:
-Yncarne. He's a beat stick, presents a near constant opportunity for your opponent to make a mistake in their sequencing, and is fun as hell to play with.
-Dire Avengers. The trigger condition for their shoot twice strat is identical to the trigger condition for hitting on 2+. Your opponent better finish them off, or suffer the consequences. 
-Exarchs. With a psychic power to bring any infantry model back from the dead with full wounds is best used on Exarchs. Soak fire, die, come back, kill, rinse, repeat.
-Hellions. Always Strike First, just like CoS. Will hit on 2+ for most of the game, perhaps sooner than PfP, and it applies to their (meager) shooting too. Can get a 4++ with a psychic power instead of needing to kill a unit and spend CP like the CoS. Don't need to jump through hoops to include, just have an Aeldari fast attack choice. Have HQ options that can keep up with and support them 😲
-Wraith Blades. They can come back from the dead, ASF, and +1 to hit if one is dead.


In general, large, blobby squads seem good. Your opponent can ignore them and they remain efficient with obvious places to cast psychic powers and spend CP. Or if your opponent attempts to, yet fails to kill a squad, that squad gains built-in efficiency. And if they do kill the squad, you can pop the Yncarne in their place and punish them anyway.


Layering decisions for your opponent increases their chances of making the wrong one.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 09 2022, 11:06

I'm running Ynnari a lot at the moment and I really, really like them. The lists are forced to skew more towards the CWE side of things but it feels like playing an army that's taking the Drukhari/Harlequin style of aggression and combining it with the buff stacking of Asuryani, which fits my personal playstyle perfectly.

MSU Aspect Warriors mesh very, very well with the Yncarne. Exarchs and the Yncarne are both absolute monsters that are either on par with Drukhari combat characters or exceed them, and forcing the opponent to delete an entire Aspect Warrior unit to prevent them being a threat means you can hop the Yncarne around more often.

One thing to bear in mind about Wraith units; Word of the Phoenix doesn't apply to them, so no resurrecting Wraithguard or Blades (unfortunately). I'm a bit torn on whether Wraith units are worth bringing for their durability in Ynnari lists, as Shield of Ynnead is great on them (assuming they're not already axe Wraithblades) but losing Fortune is a big drawback.

The Hemlock, at least, gives access to a cheeky play with Storm of Whispers.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 09 2022, 11:34

Burnage wrote:
I'm running Ynnari a lot at the moment and I really, really like them. The lists are forced to skew more towards the CWE side of things but it feels like playing an army that's taking the Drukhari/Harlequin style of aggression and combining it with the buff stacking of Asuryani, which fits my personal playstyle perfectly.

MSU Aspect Warriors mesh very, very well with the Yncarne. Exarchs and the Yncarne are both absolute monsters that are either on par with Drukhari combat characters or exceed them, and forcing the opponent to delete an entire Aspect Warrior unit to prevent them being a threat means you can hop the Yncarne around more often.

One thing to bear in mind about Wraith units; Word of the Phoenix doesn't apply to them, so no resurrecting Wraithguard or Blades (unfortunately). I'm a bit torn on whether Wraith units are worth bringing for their durability in Ynnari lists, as Shield of Ynnead is great on them (assuming they're not already axe Wraithblades) but losing Fortune is a big drawback.

The Hemlock, at least, gives access to a cheeky play with Storm of Whispers.

Can I ask what sort of lists you're running?

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 09 2022, 12:25

Soulless Samurai wrote:
Burnage wrote:
I'm running Ynnari a lot at the moment and I really, really like them. The lists are forced to skew more towards the CWE side of things but it feels like playing an army that's taking the Drukhari/Harlequin style of aggression and combining it with the buff stacking of Asuryani, which fits my personal playstyle perfectly.

MSU Aspect Warriors mesh very, very well with the Yncarne. Exarchs and the Yncarne are both absolute monsters that are either on par with Drukhari combat characters or exceed them, and forcing the opponent to delete an entire Aspect Warrior unit to prevent them being a threat means you can hop the Yncarne around more often.

One thing to bear in mind about Wraith units; Word of the Phoenix doesn't apply to them, so no resurrecting Wraithguard or Blades (unfortunately). I'm a bit torn on whether Wraith units are worth bringing for their durability in Ynnari lists, as Shield of Ynnead is great on them (assuming they're not already axe Wraithblades) but losing Fortune is a big drawback.

The Hemlock, at least, gives access to a cheeky play with Storm of Whispers.

Can I ask what sort of lists you're running?

I'm still experimenting (and the points changes at the end of this month will put a kink in this) but at the moment I'm messing around with this for a 2k point list:

Spoiler:
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 09 2022, 13:31

Do the kabalite warriors in that list actually serve a useful purpose? They seem a bit fragile for objective holders (though I guess your opponent might want to focus more on the other elements of your list)
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 09 2022, 13:40

krayd wrote:
Do the kabalite warriors in that list actually serve a useful purpose? They seem a bit fragile for objective holders (though I guess your opponent might want to focus more on the other elements of your list)

They're for Retrieve Nachmund Data. Shove them in deep strike or strategic reserves, reliably get two quarters with them.

Pure Drukhari has better options for that (e.g., Wracks and Mandrakes) but Ynnari doesn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 09 2022, 14:04

Burnage wrote:


I'm still experimenting (and the points changes at the end of this month will put a kink in this) but at the moment I'm messing around with this for a 2k point list:

Spoiler:

Ah, thank you for sharing that.

It's one of those things I've been wondering about trying but, especially not being very familiar with Eldar, I'm never sure where to start. It's very useful seeing other lists to get a rough idea of what sort of thing to aim for.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari ... confuse me   Ynnari ... confuse me I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2022, 11:08

Yeah I've been having a lot of fun with ynnari, playing through a crusade campaign atm and the fight first alone is so useful

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