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 Community made Codex - Obsessions

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Community made Codex - Obsessions   Community made Codex - Obsessions I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 06 2022, 02:41

This one is going to be tricky ... here we need to discuss if we want to combine all of our units back into one faction or keep them split into three sub factions ... if we combine them all into one faction we could change the obsessions into something like

Realspace Raid Obsession: Stalkers in the shadows <Druhkari> models with this obsession always benefit from light cover. Shooting attacks made by models with this obsession ignore the benefits of light cover. Attacks made by models with this obsession score an additional hit on an unmodified hit roll of a 6.

Where even our <blades for hire> units benefit from them.
Or we can leave them the way they are, what do you all think?
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Community made Codex - Obsessions   Community made Codex - Obsessions I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 06 2022, 13:31

My personal preference would be to have army-wide Obsessions. You know, like every other army in the game. tongue

Eldar seem to manage without requiring separate Craftworld choices for Wraith units, Aspects and Guardians/Guardian-piloted units. Necrons don't require separate Dynasties for Canoptek or Destroyer Cult units, etc.

Aside from making army-building really wonky, it also means we have units like Beasts, Scourges and Mandrakes that are basically stuck in limbo because nothing works on them.

I also think there's plenty of room for our Obsessions to be trimmed. Aside from the ones that are niche beyond all reason (Distain for Lesser Beings, anyone?), we've also got 1 named-faction Obsession, one All-Consuming Custom Obsession, and 1 regular Custom Obsession that are all tied to Poisoned weapons. I think perhaps these could be consolidated.

My overall suggestion would probably be to tweak and consolidate the existing Obsessions into a group of universal ones.

Black Heart will probably depend on what we do with PfP. Though as it stands it could easily be a universal Obsession with basically no change.

If we keep Poison Tongue, I'd change it give rerolls to wound for poison weapons (this way, it doesn't just stop working on weapons that are already Poison 2+). Maybe even include the -1 AP on 6s to wound from Merciless Razorkin. Might depend on whether we change Poison weapons, but as it stands they're in need of a serious leg-up.

Flayed Skull could perhaps be combined with Red Grief to make infantry faster as well.

Obsidian Rose's reroll to wound is universally useful but obviously its range increase is less so. Maybe combine it with part of Coven of Twelve to give melee attacks -1AP as well?

Prophets of Flesh could be amusing as a universal trait, with no one able to wound Kabalites or Wyches on better than a 4+, unless they're prepared to fire Lascannons at them. Laughing


I should say - I realise that this will leave us with a number of 'missing' artefacts and warlord traits. My suggestion would be to just make any artefacts not included in the Obsessions into generic ones. Could even open some of them up to other users. e.g. there doesn't seem to be anything actually tying the Soul Seeker to Poison Tongue, or even to Archons. Also, am I misremembering, or did the Vexator Mask used to be an artefact that Archons could take (rather than being tied to Haemonculi)?

Oh, as for Warlord Traits, I'd probably do some consolidation here as well. My overall suggestion would be to have 9 generic ones - 6 of them universal and then one each for the Archon, Succubus and Haemonculus.

So it could be something like:
1) Soul Thirst
2) Quicksilver Fighter
3) Stimm Addict (gives Combat Drugs rule to Archon/Haemonculus or extra drug to Succubus)
4) Ancient Evil
5) Famed Savagery
6) Hyperswift Reflexes
7) Hatred Eternal (Archon only)
Cool Precision Blows (Succubus only)
9) Master Regenesist (Haemonculus Only)

(I know some of this is probably for different topics - just wanted to get it down for reference.)

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Community made Codex - Obsessions   Community made Codex - Obsessions I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 06 2022, 14:34

I like the idea of consolidation for obsessions. And the more I think on it the more this probably should have been one of the last topics we tackle because it is going to be very dependant on PfP and unit rules themselves ... but I think we can work on this section with the idea that we are no longer going to be broken up into 3 subfactions
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Community made Codex - Obsessions   Community made Codex - Obsessions I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 07 2022, 01:27

Our army building rules are not only unique, but very powerful. We can cherry-pick melee obsessions for Wych Cults that would provide no benefit to Kabal units and vice-versa. Afaik no other faction can do this.

It's not only mechanically fitting, but also very fluffy. If you really want a Pan-Drukhari subfaction, I would turn the "Ynnari" into a DE subfaction where you can take Kabals, Wych Cults and Coven (because there are Ynnari Haemonculi).

Taking Ynnari results into a unique replacement for PfP, you can spend extra CP/points during listbuildings to give your HQ psychic powers.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Community made Codex - Obsessions   Community made Codex - Obsessions I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 07 2022, 12:25

The Strange Dark One wrote:
Our army building rules are not only unique, but very powerful. We can cherry-pick melee obsessions for Wych Cults that would provide no benefit to Kabal units and vice-versa. Afaik no other faction can do this.

As with many things in our current book, though, it's powerful but boring.

Whilst other factions' characters can buff most of their respective armies, ours are limited to buffing a tiny section of it. Gone are the days where you could put a Haemonculus with Wyches or Incubi or an Archon or Succubus with Grotesques. Now you can do those things but it serves absolutely no point or purpose because characters are only allowed to buff ze designated subfaction!

And if you happen to like, say, Mandrakes or Beasts, then you aren't allowed any interactions at all. Because what we really need, in an army of 30 units with severe restrictions on synergy, is to have about 5 units that might as well be from a different army entirely.

Sorry but this just doesn't appeal to me.

It also means we end up with far less choice elsewhere.

For example, other factions get 6 warlord traits plus a subfaction one to choose from (7 total). However, each of our characters only gets 3 to start with. Even with the subfaction trait and Master ability, you're still looking at 2 fewer options for each character.

Same story with Relics. We have so few and so many are locked to specific characters that there's barely any choice at all.

Even our Master abilities are 1-per-character, compared to 3-per-character for Harlequins and 6 for Sisters of Battle. Also, whilst those factions get Master abilities that let them differentiate their characters, ours just further hammers them into their assigned roles.

It's quite possible that I'll find myself in a minority on this one but I can't help but see our poorly-executed imitation of the Corsair Coterie as being one of the primary reasons for the dullness and stagnation of our book.


The Strange Dark One wrote:
I would turn the "Ynnari" into a DE subfaction where you can take Kabals, Wych Cults and Coven (because there are Ynnari Haemonculi).

Taking Ynnari results into a unique replacement for PfP, you can spend extra CP/points during listbuildings to give your HQ psychic powers.

I think perhaps this shows where our viewpoints diverge.

You look at that idea and think it would be nice as a niche way to play Dark Eldar.

I look at your suggested rules for Ynnari and think 'Man, you're practically describing my dream for how our core rules would work.' Very Happy

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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: Community made Codex - Obsessions   Community made Codex - Obsessions I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 07 2022, 23:39

I'm in the middle here, I'd much prefer three different factions, one overall subfaction makes no sense.
And like, if the point of the thread is to make up rules, who says that your haemonculus can't heal/buff other stuff. They don't have to be related.

Three separate specializations for the three core factions within commoragh, that can then interact regardless is what it should be.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Community made Codex - Obsessions   Community made Codex - Obsessions I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 08 2022, 09:43

Soulless Samurai wrote:
The Strange Dark One wrote:
...

[...]

Whilst other factions' characters can buff most of their respective armies, ours are limited to buffing a tiny section of it. Gone are the days where you could put a Haemonculus with Wyches or Incubi or an Archon or Succubus with Grotesques. Now you can do those things but it serves absolutely no point or purpose because characters are only allowed to buff ze designated subfaction!

[...]


One thing doesn't have to do with the other. Just because your army is organized by subfactions, it doesn't mean that you can't have pan-Drukhari buffs. The Cronos buffs <DRUKHARI INFANTRY> and there is no good reason why not more units should work like this too.

But frankly, I don't think it makes a massive difference. The only interesting buffs is that of the Haemonculus. The core issue is that the DE always have had very little synergy with each other, everything else is just a symptom of the greater concern.

What our HQs need is proper diversification. And anybody who is semi-creative can come up with tons of things which is more interesting than what GW gave our HQs. Not to mention that with HQ upgrades, we effectively have 6 HQs which have their unique advantages and synergies.

You can go one step further and copy the system of Exarch Powers for our HQs to have many different flavours. Hellion Succubus, anybody?

Especially the Haemonculi have vast potential for unique and terrifying active abilities. There's enough things in the lore that you could reference.

On that note, I don't think Covens should compete with Nurgle in terms of durability. While they should have great durability, part of their effectiveness should come from subversion. Debuffing enemies, strong one-time effects and interesting support abilities as well.

In general, I would keep the amount of buffs in our army to a minimum. We should primary weaken the enemy. And at this point, the problem with compatible keywords flies out of the window.

And when it comes to Warlord traits/relics, I think you are essentially describing a lack of content.


Cheers
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Community made Codex - Obsessions   Community made Codex - Obsessions I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 08 2022, 16:23

The Strange Dark One wrote:

One thing doesn't have to do with the other. Just because your army is organized by subfactions, it doesn't mean that you can't have pan-Drukhari buffs. The Cronos buffs <DRUKHARI INFANTRY> and there is no good reason why not more units should work like this too.

Perhaps, but I think you quickly reach a stage of 'why are we splitting the army up, again?'. Razz


The Strange Dark One wrote:

But frankly, I don't think it makes a massive difference. The only interesting buffs is that of the Haemonculus. The core issue is that the DE always have had very little synergy with each other, everything else is just a symptom of the greater concern.

What our HQs need is proper diversification. And anybody who is semi-creative can come up with tons of things which is more interesting than what GW gave our HQs. Not to mention that with HQ upgrades, we effectively have 6 HQs which have their unique advantages and synergies.

I'm in partial agreement here.

I certainly can't say I find the Haemonculus' buff remotely interesting. Otherwise, I agree that our HQs are in dire need of more interesting abilities and IMO all of them need to ditch their auras.

I agree, too, that our HQs need to be diversified. As it stands, we have one melee HQ and two other melee HQs who (barring one decent build) completely suck at melee.

However, I have to disagree about how Master abilities effectively give us 6 HQs. They really don't. A normal Archon is locked into melee because he has no guns with meaningful range and no buffs worth a damn except in melee. His Master ability gives him a 1/game fight twice. So he goes from being a melee character to being a melee character. The Haemonculus is a durable character who lost all his ranged weapons and now can't fight in melee to save his life (literally). His Master ability gives him a 1/game revive. So he's gone from being a somewhat durable but pillow-fisted character to being a slightly-more-durable but pillow-fisted character. The Succubus has the only Master ability that's even remotely interesting (as well as one of the only abilities in the entire Dark Eldar codex that actually feels appropriately tricky and Dark Eldar-ish). The ability to leap out of combat after attacking is fantastic and really emphasises her agility and acrobatic acumen. However, it still doesn't really change anything about her - she's still a melee character who wants to leap into melee.

The point I'm trying to make is that none of our Master abilities change how our characters play or facilitate new playstyles.

Compare that to Harlequins. The Shadowseer, for example, has a Pivotal Role for melee combat, a Pivotal Role that lets him shut down enemy auras, and a Pivotal Role that lets him protect units from distant shooting. None of these are aggressive powers, so they all feel on theme with the Shadowseer hiding Harlequins and/or hampering enemies, yet they allow for frontline Shadowseers, utility Shadowseers, and also ranged Shadowseers.

Even the Death Jester can be a straight shooter, a support piece (hampering units and preventing overwatch), or even a more frontline character - able to put out Mortal Wounds in melee as well as at range.

It's a similar story with SoB. You've got a Blessing that improves melee, but you've also got support ones, you've got ones to let her heal or reduce damage, you've got one that effectively turns any gun she's holding into a sniper rifle etc..

Sorry, I know I'm getting way off the topic of Obsessions, but the point I'm trying to make is that, in addition to core abilities, we're seriously in need of Master abilities that open up new themes and playstyles for our characters.


The Strange Dark One wrote:

You can go one step further and copy the system of Exarch Powers for our HQs to have many different flavours. Hellion Succubus, anybody?

Especially the Haemonculi have vast potential for unique and terrifying active abilities. There's enough things in the lore that you could reference.

No disagreement there.


The Strange Dark One wrote:

In general, I would keep the amount of buffs in our army to a minimum. We should primary weaken the enemy. And at this point, the problem with compatible keywords flies out of the window.

And when it comes to Warlord traits/relics, I think you are essentially describing a lack of content.

On the first point, I absolutely agree. I mentioned Harlequins before and I think they offer some very good templates for debuffs.

On the second point, I think it's a little more complicated than that. For example, we actually have 9 base warlord traits (compared to 6 for other factions). The trouble is, each individual HQ only gets 3 of them. So your choice actually ends up being much more limited, despite the additional content. Our Relics definitely seem lacking, though I think the subfaction split again causes problems here. There are a number of relics that seem like they could easily be universal but which are instead locked to just one of our three HQs due to being in a particular Kabal/Cult/Coven.

Though I think there's also an issue in that our faction over-relies on relics and warlord traits. Rather than being supplemental, they're our only source of good weapons, our only source of good support abilities etc. Even our Master abilities just give us more relics and warlord traits, with apparently no regard for the strict limits on such things.


Anyway, I realise I've strayed quite a bit from the original topic, so apologies for that.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Community made Codex - Obsessions   Community made Codex - Obsessions I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 08 2022, 23:29

Soulless Samurai wrote:
The Strange Dark One wrote:

One thing doesn't have to do with the other. Just because your army is organized by subfactions, it doesn't mean that you can't have pan-Drukhari buffs. The Cronos buffs <DRUKHARI INFANTRY> and there is no good reason why not more units should work like this too.

Perhaps, but I think you quickly reach a stage of 'why are we splitting the army up, again?'. Razz

Because I don't want melee buffs for my Kabalites. It also does allow for greater flexibility in terms of rulemaking. A lot of the obsession don't even properly work with other subfactions. I refrain from giving examples, subfaction souping was removed because it was too powerful. Under no circumstances would I give up on this myself.

Soulless Samurai wrote:
The Strange Dark One wrote:

But frankly, I don't think it makes a massive difference. The only interesting buffs is that of the Haemonculus. The core issue is that the DE always have had very little synergy with each other, everything else is just a symptom of the greater concern.

What our HQs need is proper diversification. And anybody who is semi-creative can come up with tons of things which is more interesting than what GW gave our HQs. Not to mention that with HQ upgrades, we effectively have 6 HQs which have their unique advantages and synergies.


However, I have to disagree about how Master abilities effectively give us 6 HQs. They really don't.

Oh, we do agree. I was talking form a design perspective. I'm not talking about status-quo, but the potential that is there.

The most straight-forward implementation of the "Master Upgrades" is to have 3x2 choices of HQ: 1 cheap token HQ with a boring "over the counter" buff. And 1 more substantial choice which actually makes a difference and leaves a mark.
Dracon -> Archon
Archite -> Succubus
Haemonculus -> Ancient Haemonculus

But of course, this is just one of several ways to have a workaround for our lack of HQ models.
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