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 Recent Coven Nerf

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Zenotaph
CptMetal
Kalmah
mynamelegend
The Strange Dark One
Patayou
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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve


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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 19 2022, 10:16

[quote="CptMetal"]
Cerve wrote:
I find competitive the 90% of the Codex. I'm in line with all the nerfs, and I'm having a blast since it cames out.
[...]
I can actually write 10 and more lists, all of them competitive for tournaments, some of them easier than others.
[...]
Damn I'm even considering Flayed Skull for the new Tau meta. Flayed Skull, the worse cabal obsession of the Codex.

Does any of those lists make Venoms good? I've yet to play a 9th game (covid and personal reasons) and I reeeeaally want to make my Venoms good. I'm considering poison tongue as a kabal, coupled with some few Cult units and Incubbi (I got those toughest girls of the galaxy version! Super hot and cool!).



Unfortunately...no Sad

I mean, it's not that Venoms are weak, it's that I always fine a problem of internal balance. Raiders are not just transports, they bring to you actual very good antitank. So when you do the switch with Venoms you're missing that antitank firepower base that I don't really know where to pick. In addition, you can argue about picking 2-3 Ravagers, but if you field Venoms usually you're no fielding BH or OR, so no rerolls for your dark lances. That's the main issue for me.

Anyway I can share some of my thoughts.

If you want to run heavy Venoms lists, don't run Poisoned Tongue. By maths, the combo Merciless Razorskin + Torturous Efficiency punch better, so if you don't rely on traits/relics/stratagems from Tongue, just run this custom. TE works nice with Medusae and Shredders too.

If you want to run heavy Venoms, I belive you would try to kill veichles with other obsessions. So Incubi and Drahzar are a good call, TestofSkill+PreciseKillers is nice, spamming blastpistols, blasterscourges, painengines (even after the nerf), BS2+ Reavers, etc.

You could even run BH Venoms with and old fashion style. You can spam 5 Kabals w/blaster+blastpistols, flying them by 16" and double blast within 6" with 1 reroll to hit. The thing, BH sounds weird because it works with everything: with the custom you got a bit more punch, but when you roll 6 dice (double splinter cannons) between 6s explodes in double hit and 1 reroll to hit the difference is minimal...so yeah, you loose the second part of the Obsession, but your Venoms takes +1PfP. Which means +1 to hit on turn 2, which means that chains are not so bad on them. Expecially in this Tau meta, charging with veichles cames back handy (finally!) so you roll 6 dice in melee, rerolling 1, Sr6 ap-1 bladeartists hitting on 3+ on T2 (1 if you throw the Animus).
It sounds nothing by per se, but when you consider the 6 hits from Venom+double liquefator embarked/embarked Medusae/embarkedShredder+attacks on melee, it becames a threat for every Firewarriors-size unit, Kroot unit, Gaunts unit, GSC units ecc. Basically all those units with OS and/or action-units. Or you can throw few wounds on bigger units, remember that you will field a lot of these Venoms.
I even like a small package of 3 FlayedSkull Venoms with 5 Kabals w/Shredders or Twelves double liquefator 5 Wracks men-size unit on top of them. Because stripping off lightcover bonus from the shoots is nice when Crisis/Broadsides are Infantry and Firewarriors saves on 3+ in cover.

Combinations are a lot. The main issue I have with Venoms it's that those are not enogh (for me) to be the barebones of the list. They seems to be good more like some support on board controll, harrassment on far objectives etc, but not something where to start to build a list. I fear that the Venom Spam as a concept is dead, but fielding 2-3 Venoms still works and in fact they can help you a lot on the board control/missions play.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 19 2022, 13:34

CptMetal wrote:

I don't have much coven, just two or three talos, an heamunculus and a big squad of grots.
They are still viable, right?
Or do I need wracks to get a patrol detachment?

You'll need at least one unit of wracks for a patrol, or for a realspace raid.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 20 2022, 06:04

CptMetal wrote:
I don't have much coven, just two or three talos, an heamunculus and a big squad of grots.
They are still viable, right?
Or do I need wracks to get a patrol detachment?

If you have 3 Talos and a lot of Grotesque (5-Cool you already have a good base for a Coven detachment.
For sure, Wracks will be mandatory to fulfill troops slots, but the good news is that Wracks are actually good units.
10 to 20 model is a good number to experiment with them
the Haemoxyte upgrade is worth it IMHO

everything else is the usual stuff like transports and Drazhar/Incubis and even some Scourge and you seriously have something good to play and have fun with

N.B. if you play competitively my arguments are to take lightly since i only play casual friendly games Wink
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 20 2022, 15:48

I only play casually.

So I'll need some of those 'toughest girls of the galaxy - wracks'.

Thanks for the tips.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 20 2022, 23:54

Kalmah wrote:

For sure, Wracks will be mandatory to fulfill troops slots, but the good news is that Wracks are actually good units.

Just a point but you actually could use Warriors or Wyches instead.

Probably not as good as Wracks (especially since they won't get any Coven/Kabal/Cult bonuses) but it's entirely legal.

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 21 2022, 13:41

CptMetal wrote:
I only play casually.

So I'll need some of those 'toughest girls of the galaxy - wracks'.

Thanks for the tips.

Try the "Skinners". They make nicd Wrack conversions. Wink

To play Venom heavy: Well, I usually field 2-3. But I almost always use 2-3 Raiders too.
Competitively, there are some Venom spam lists, but they dont work for us normal people.
Everytime someone tries to copy one of his lists, they just dont seem to work.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 24 2022, 06:30

Zenotaph wrote:
CptMetal wrote:
I only play casually.

So I'll need some of those 'toughest girls of the galaxy - wracks'.

Thanks for the tips.

Try the "Skinners". They make nicd Wrack conversions. Wink

To play Venom heavy: Well, I usually field 2-3. But I almost always use 2-3 Raiders too.
Competitively, there are some Venom spam lists, but they dont work for us normal people.
Everytime someone tries to copy one of his lists, they just dont seem to work.

Do you have one of those tournament venom spam lists?
I am really curious and I would try them or similar stuff, as I do not care so much when I loose. I only play friendly games with, well, friends.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 24 2022, 13:19

Sure! Here is Sean Naydens Venom Spam list from October:

Gametype: Matched

Obsession: Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder (Restricted)

Raiding Forces – CP Refund

+ HQ [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP] +

Lelith Hesperax [5 PL, 90pts]: Blood Dancer, Lelith’s Blades, Warlord

Succubus [3 PL, 60pts, -1CP]: 1 – Adrenalight (Combat Drug), Dark Lotus Toxin, Precision Blows, Razorflails, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition [-1CP]

+ Troops [7 PL, 130pts, -1CP] +

Hekatrix Bloodbrides [4 PL, 70pts]: 1 – Adrenalight (Combat Drug)
. Hekatrix [22pts]: Blast Pistol [5pts], Plasma Grenades, Power sword [5pts]
. 4x Hekatrix Bloodbride [48pts]: 4x Hekatarii Blade, 4x Plasma Grenades, 4x Splinter Pistol

Wyches [3 PL, 60pts, -1CP]: 3 – Hypex (Combat Drug)
. Hekatrix [20pts, -1CP]: Agoniser [5pts], Blast Pistol [5pts], Morvaines’s Agoniser, Plasma Grenades, Stratagem: Hekatrix of the Crucibael [-1CP]
. 4x Wych [40pts]: 4x Hekatarii Blade, 4x Plasma Grenades, 4x Splinter Pistol

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari – Drukhari) [54 PL, 1,038pts, -3CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Obsession: Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue: The Serpent’s Kiss

+ Stratagems [-2CP] +

Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City [-1CP]: Additional Relics [-1CP]

Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City [-1CP]: Additional Relics [-1CP]

+ No Force Org Slot [5 PL, 68pts] +

Court of the Archon [5 PL, 68pts]
. Sslyth [18pts]: Shardcarbine, Splinter Pistol, Sslyth battle-blade
. Sslyth [18pts]: Shardcarbine, Splinter Pistol, Sslyth battle-blade
. Ur-Ghul [16pts]: Ur-Ghul Talons
. Ur-Ghul [16pts]: Ur-Ghul Talons

+ HQ [13 PL, 235pts, -1CP] +

Archon [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Ancient Evil, Blast Pistol [5pts], Huskblade [5pts], Overlord, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition [-1CP], The Animus Vitae
. Splintered Genius (Poisoned Tongue) [1 PL, 15pts]: Splintered Genius [1 PL, 15pts]

Drazhar [8 PL, 145pts]: The Executioner’s Demiklaives

+ Troops [4 PL, 65pts] +

Kabalite Trueborn [4 PL, 65pts]
. 3x Kabalite Trueborn [30pts]: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn w/ Special Weapon [20pts]: Blaster [10pts]
. Trueborn Sybarite [15pts]: Blast Pistol [5pts]

+ Elites [8 PL, 160pts] +

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Incubi [64pts]: 4x Klaive
. Klaivex [16pts]: Demiklaives

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Incubi [64pts]: 4x Klaive
. Klaivex [16pts]: Demiklaives

+ Dedicated Transport [24 PL, 510pts] +

Venom [4 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

Venom [4 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

Venom [4 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

Venom [4 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

Venom [4 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

Venom [4 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari – Drukhari) [33 PL, 680pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost

Obsession
. *Custom Coven*: Enhanced Sensory Organs, Master Torturers

Raiding Forces – CP Refund

+ HQ [8 PL, 150pts] +

Archon [5 PL, 90pts]: Blast Pistol [5pts], Huskblade [5pts], Overlord
. Splintered Genius (Flayed Skull) [1 PL, 15pts]: Splintered Genius [1 PL, 15pts]

Succubus [3 PL, 60pts]: 3 – Hypex (Combat Drug), The Triptych Whip
. Agoniser & Archite Glaive: Agoniser, Archite Glaive<strife>

+ Troops [10 PL, 195pts] +

Kabalite Trueborn [4 PL, 65pts] <flayed skull>
. 3x Kabalite Trueborn [30pts]: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn w/ Special Weapon [20pts]: Blaster [10pts]
. Trueborn Sybarite [15pts]: Blast Pistol [5pts]

Wracks [3 PL, 65pts]
. Acothyst [23pts]: Electrocorrosive Whip [5pts], Liquifier Gun [10pts]
. Wrack w/ Special Weapon [18pts]: Liquifier Gun [10pts], Wrack Blade
. 3x Wracks [24pts]: 3x Wrack Blade

Wracks [3 PL, 65pts]
. Acothyst [23pts]: Electrocorrosive Whip [5pts], Liquifier Gun [10pts]
. Wrack w/ Special Weapon [18pts]: Liquifier Gun [10pts], Wrack Blade
. 3x Wracks [24pts]: 3x Wrack Blade

+ Elites [7 PL, 155pts] +

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Incubi [64pts]: 4x Klaive
. Klaivex [16pts]: Demiklaives

Mandrakes [3 PL, 75pts]
. 4x Mandrake [60pts]: 4x Baleblast, 4x Glimmersteel Blade
. Nightfiend [15pts]: Baleblast, Glimmersteel Blade

+ Dedicated Transport [8 PL, 180pts] +

Venom [4 PL, 90pts]: Bladevanes, Coven, Grisly Trophies [5pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

Venom [4 PL, 90pts]: Bladevanes, Coven, Grisly Trophies [5pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

++ Total: [102 PL, 7CP, 1,998pts] ++

Archetype

Venom Spam

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Cerve
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Cerve


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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 24 2022, 13:30

Zenotaph wrote:
Sure! Here is Sean Naydens Venom Spam list from October:

Gametype: Matched

Obsession: Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder (Restricted)

Raiding Forces – CP Refund

+ HQ [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP] +

Lelith Hesperax [5 PL, 90pts]: Blood Dancer, Lelith’s Blades, Warlord

Succubus [3 PL, 60pts, -1CP]: 1 – Adrenalight (Combat Drug), Dark Lotus Toxin, Precision Blows, Razorflails, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition [-1CP]

+ Troops [7 PL, 130pts, -1CP] +

Hekatrix Bloodbrides [4 PL, 70pts]: 1 – Adrenalight (Combat Drug)
. Hekatrix [22pts]: Blast Pistol [5pts], Plasma Grenades, Power sword [5pts]
. 4x Hekatrix Bloodbride [48pts]: 4x Hekatarii Blade, 4x Plasma Grenades, 4x Splinter Pistol

Wyches [3 PL, 60pts, -1CP]: 3 – Hypex (Combat Drug)
. Hekatrix [20pts, -1CP]: Agoniser [5pts], Blast Pistol [5pts], Morvaines’s Agoniser, Plasma Grenades, Stratagem: Hekatrix of the Crucibael [-1CP]
. 4x Wych [40pts]: 4x Hekatarii Blade, 4x Plasma Grenades, 4x Splinter Pistol

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari – Drukhari) [54 PL, 1,038pts, -3CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Obsession: Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue: The Serpent’s Kiss

+ Stratagems [-2CP] +

Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City [-1CP]: Additional Relics [-1CP]

Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City [-1CP]: Additional Relics [-1CP]

+ No Force Org Slot [5 PL, 68pts] +

Court of the Archon [5 PL, 68pts]
. Sslyth [18pts]: Shardcarbine, Splinter Pistol, Sslyth battle-blade
. Sslyth [18pts]: Shardcarbine, Splinter Pistol, Sslyth battle-blade
. Ur-Ghul [16pts]: Ur-Ghul Talons
. Ur-Ghul [16pts]: Ur-Ghul Talons

+ HQ [13 PL, 235pts, -1CP] +

Archon [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Ancient Evil, Blast Pistol [5pts], Huskblade [5pts], Overlord, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition [-1CP], The Animus Vitae
. Splintered Genius (Poisoned Tongue) [1 PL, 15pts]: Splintered Genius [1 PL, 15pts]

Drazhar [8 PL, 145pts]: The Executioner’s Demiklaives

+ Troops [4 PL, 65pts] +

Kabalite Trueborn [4 PL, 65pts]
. 3x Kabalite Trueborn [30pts]: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn w/ Special Weapon [20pts]: Blaster [10pts]
. Trueborn Sybarite [15pts]: Blast Pistol [5pts]

+ Elites [8 PL, 160pts] +

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Incubi [64pts]: 4x Klaive
. Klaivex [16pts]: Demiklaives

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Incubi [64pts]: 4x Klaive
. Klaivex [16pts]: Demiklaives

+ Dedicated Transport [24 PL, 510pts] +

Venom [4 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

Venom [4 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

Venom [4 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

Venom [4 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

Venom [4 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

Venom [4 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari – Drukhari) [33 PL, 680pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost

Obsession
. *Custom Coven*: Enhanced Sensory Organs, Master Torturers

Raiding Forces – CP Refund

+ HQ [8 PL, 150pts] +

Archon [5 PL, 90pts]: Blast Pistol [5pts], Huskblade [5pts], Overlord
. Splintered Genius (Flayed Skull) [1 PL, 15pts]: Splintered Genius [1 PL, 15pts]

Succubus [3 PL, 60pts]: 3 – Hypex (Combat Drug), The Triptych Whip
. Agoniser & Archite Glaive: Agoniser, Archite Glaive<strife>

+ Troops [10 PL, 195pts] +

Kabalite Trueborn [4 PL, 65pts] <flayed skull>
. 3x Kabalite Trueborn [30pts]: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn w/ Special Weapon [20pts]: Blaster [10pts]
. Trueborn Sybarite [15pts]: Blast Pistol [5pts]

Wracks [3 PL, 65pts]
. Acothyst [23pts]: Electrocorrosive Whip [5pts], Liquifier Gun [10pts]
. Wrack w/ Special Weapon [18pts]: Liquifier Gun [10pts], Wrack Blade
. 3x Wracks [24pts]: 3x Wrack Blade

Wracks [3 PL, 65pts]
. Acothyst [23pts]: Electrocorrosive Whip [5pts], Liquifier Gun [10pts]
. Wrack w/ Special Weapon [18pts]: Liquifier Gun [10pts], Wrack Blade
. 3x Wracks [24pts]: 3x Wrack Blade

+ Elites [7 PL, 155pts] +

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Incubi [64pts]: 4x Klaive
. Klaivex [16pts]: Demiklaives

Mandrakes [3 PL, 75pts]
. 4x Mandrake [60pts]: 4x Baleblast, 4x Glimmersteel Blade
. Nightfiend [15pts]: Baleblast, Glimmersteel Blade

+ Dedicated Transport [8 PL, 180pts] +

Venom [4 PL, 90pts]: Bladevanes, Coven, Grisly Trophies [5pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

Venom [4 PL, 90pts]: Bladevanes, Coven, Grisly Trophies [5pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts], Splinter Cannon [10pts]

++ Total: [102 PL, 7CP, 1,998pts] ++

Archetype

Venom Spam

Unfortunately this is before the recent faqs Sad
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 24 2022, 13:32

Wouldnt have worked for anyone else than himself anyways.
"Never copy Naydens list"...

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 24 2022, 13:56

Well, there is nothing in that last that I have noticed that is affected by the recent FAQs. As far as I can tell, there is only one Kabal, one Cult, and one Coven. The cult/kabal units in the coven detachment are still legal; the just get the same keywords, but don't get the benefits from them due to being in a coven detachment.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 25 2022, 15:46

krayd wrote:
Well, there is nothing in that last that I have noticed that is affected by the recent FAQs. As far as I can tell, there is only one Kabal, one Cult, and one Coven.  The cult/kabal units in the coven detachment are still legal; the just get the same keywords, but don't get the benefits from them due to being in a coven detachment.

There are 2 Trueborn units. With obvious two different Kabal keywords (Flayed Skulls and Poisoned Tongue).

There are no chances to play double Trueborn anymore in matched play, it doesn't matter if they get any benefit or not.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 25 2022, 19:53

Cerve wrote:
krayd wrote:
Well, there is nothing in that last that I have noticed that is affected by the recent FAQs. As far as I can tell, there is only one Kabal, one Cult, and one Coven.  The cult/kabal units in the coven detachment are still legal; the just get the same keywords, but don't get the benefits from them due to being in a coven detachment.

There are 2 Trueborn units. With obvious two different Kabal keywords (Flayed Skulls and Poisoned Tongue).

There are no chances to play double Trueborn anymore in matched play, it doesn't matter if they get any benefit or not.

Ah I missed the 2nd trueborn unit. Other than that (which would need to be replaced by something else), it would be fine, as all kabal units would just be poisoned tongue, with all of the ones in the coven detachment not getting any benefit from being such. Sounds like a bookkeeping nightmare for both players.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 25 2022, 23:54

What would be the strategy for that list against a vehicle-heavy opponent?

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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 26 2022, 00:05

That list is also using old points values. It looks to be about 110 points over.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Recent Coven Nerf   Recent Coven Nerf - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 28 2022, 12:54

Soulless Samurai wrote:
What would be the strategy for that list against a vehicle-heavy opponent?


It has double Trueborn+Drazhar+Incubi for them. The rest of the game it's just crushing in primaries. Heavy veichle lists usually struggle on kepping primary objectives, while you're flooding the board with all of those loaded Venoms.

Anyway, it is a relic of the past now..
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