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 So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?

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PostSubject: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 13 2022, 08:57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqtP32dDwPY&ab_channel=AuspexTactics

So it appears that Ynnari are part of the Craftworld codex now and i guess it will be with a huge drawback that we can somehow include them in Drukhari armies if at all.
And i really dont give a damn lore wise, but from a gaming perspective it saddens me that the already impressive range of the Craftwrold are getting even more toys and duplicate big hitters (Yncarne and Avatar look to be on the same page rule wise with ignore invuns and whatnot), while we dont even have a Lord of war or any big hitting unit for that matter (no comments on the Tantalus please).

What do you guys think?
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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 13 2022, 11:21

I'm absolutely with you on this.

Our faction is small and keeps getting smaller, whilst CWE is far larger and also not further split into stupid mini-subfactions.

So which book gets Harlequins?
Eldar.

Which book gets Corsairs?
Eldar.

Okay, which book gets Ynnari?
Eldar, of course!

To be honest, I'm scratching my head as to why GW didn't just put all the Eldar factions together in the same book. It seems very strange for all of them to exist in the same book, under the same umbrella . . . except Dark Eldar. Neutral

From what I understand, Ynnari armies can include DE units, but never more than they have Craftworld units. IOW, CWE can use Ynnari however they like but we're not allowed to use them at all without being at least 50% CWE. Sigh.

It's also annoying that we even lose more than Eldar when we ally. Because PfP is now our loyalty bonus, whilst our actual faction bonus isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Meanwhile, Eldar just get to keep Battle Focus when they ally, as they gained an extra loyalty ability.

It's rather disheartening, to be honest.

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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 13 2022, 12:05

First of all, although they are in the same book, I do think Harlequins stay a separate army that Eldar can only take as an allied detachment. I don't think they can just mix them through the rest of their army as if they are also Craftworld units. Same probably goes for Corsairs.

I'm still hoping that the only reason we're not in the book is because we just got our codex less than a year ago, but there's exceptions added in the book that allows us to take Harlequins or Corsairs the same way the Craftworlds do. As an allied detachment without penalties like losing PfP.

It's not all bad until we actually see the codex.
I have hopes yet though. At the moment we also lose PfP if we ally some clowns in, but maybe we'll be allowed to just use them without penalty again. If that happens, I'm happy.

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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 13 2022, 13:53

Gelmir wrote:
First of all, although they are in the same book, I do think Harlequins stay a separate army that Eldar can only take as an allied detachment. I don't think they can just mix them through the rest of their army as if they are also Craftworld units. Same probably goes for Corsairs.

I believe it was already leaked that Corsairs are an Elite choice for Eldar.

Troops if taken in a Corsair detachment.


Gelmir wrote:

I'm still hoping that the only reason we're not in the book is because we just got our codex less than a year ago, but there's exceptions added in the book that allows us to take Harlequins or Corsairs the same way the Craftworlds do. As an allied detachment without penalties like losing PfP.

You'll forgive me if I don't hold my breath.

Besides which, even if that's the case, the PfP aspect will still apply to Ynnari armies.

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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 13 2022, 14:27

Soulless Samurai wrote:

You'll forgive me if I don't hold my breath.

Besides which, even if that's the case, the PfP aspect will still apply to Ynnari armies.

No, I'm not holding my breath either, but I can still hope right? Razz

And to be fair about Ynnari, I've not been interested in those anyway since they don't allow me to use most of my favorite models. So I honestly couldn't care less about it. XD
My hopes are primarily about being allowed to use Harlequins and secondarily about maybe also Corsairs. But since Harlequins used to be in our codex as well in the past, I'd just be pissed off if Craftworlds are allowed to use them, and we aren't.
Seriously @ GW, that would be below the belt.

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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 13 2022, 14:32

Not only that but if im not mistaken, lorewise, Harlequins have a always been closer to the Dark eldar and Commorragh in their dealings, no?
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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 13 2022, 19:37

From what I can collate of the current rumours and leaks regarding Harlequins, they can be run alongside CWE or Drukhari detachments without either losing, respectively, Strands of Fate or Power From Pain. However, CWE get a free Harlequin patrol, while Drukhari do not and will have to spend CP to ally with them.

I'm not ecstatic about that but it's not the worst situation to be in, especially if Chapter Approved reduces the cost for a Patrol detachment alongside the slot reductions.
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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 13 2022, 20:51

I'm assuming taking a Harlequin Patrol will also prevent DE getting their Patrol bonus?

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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 13 2022, 22:16

RAW currently yeah

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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 14 2022, 00:19

Well it kinda looks like GW are headed back to the days when the clowns frequented the dark city and joined in on realspace raids from time to time ... and had the competitions between solitaires and succubus
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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 14 2022, 00:20

Well it kinda looks like GW are headed back to the days when the clowns frequented the dark city and joined in on realspace raids from time to time ... and had the competitions between solitaires and succubus
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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 14 2022, 17:32

Burnage wrote:
I'm not ecstatic about that but it's not the worst situation to be in, especially if Chapter Approved reduces the cost for a Patrol detachment alongside the slot reductions.


NOOOOOOO don't tell me this rumor is about to come true!!!
And you're saying the CP cost will be reduced?
IF that's true, everyone else is winning a CP while our bonus for patrol detachment becomes almost obsolete..........especially knwing that patrol will be even less attractive with only 1FA and 1HS slot...

maybe i don't have the entire picture.......but isn't it a little bit harsh on us?
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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 14 2022, 21:28

Kalmah wrote:
Burnage wrote:
I'm not ecstatic about that but it's not the worst situation to be in, especially if Chapter Approved reduces the cost for a Patrol detachment alongside the slot reductions.


NOOOOOOO don't tell me this rumor is about to come true!!!
And you're saying the CP cost will be reduced?
IF that's true, everyone else is winning a CP while our bonus for patrol detachment becomes almost obsolete..........especially knwing that patrol will be even less attractive with only 1FA and 1HS slot...

maybe i don't have the entire picture.......but isn't it a little bit harsh on us?

Not sure about the source of the leak, so we'll probably have to wait for CA (or official leaks) to find out for certain if it's true.

If it is, I wouldn't expect much sympathy from non-DE players. Doing well at tournaments means your army isn't allowed to be fun to play.

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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 16 2022, 10:58

Soulless Samurai wrote:
Kalmah wrote:
Burnage wrote:
I'm not ecstatic about that but it's not the worst situation to be in, especially if Chapter Approved reduces the cost for a Patrol detachment alongside the slot reductions.


NOOOOOOO don't tell me this rumor is about to come true!!!
And you're saying the CP cost will be reduced?
IF that's true, everyone else is winning a CP while our bonus for patrol detachment becomes almost obsolete..........especially knwing that patrol will be even less attractive with only 1FA and 1HS slot...

maybe i don't have the entire picture.......but isn't it a little bit harsh on us?

Not sure about the source of the leak, so we'll probably have to wait for CA (or official leaks) to find out for certain if it's true.

If it is, I wouldn't expect much sympathy from non-DE players. Doing well at tournaments means your army isn't allowed to be fun to play.

Yeah, people really do not like it when dark Eldar are competitive--GW most of all. We're usually not a good army so on the occasion that GW screws up and accidentally makes us good, people are like "what's this?? This isn't supposed to be!" Then GW does what they can to knock us down into the cellar again.


I'm all for correcting balance issues but it's not like there are many alternatives when something gets taken away. We're supposed to be the mechanized assault force and we are very good at that. Our stuff is super fragile, so to get it to be effective we have to figure out how to get it safely across the board. They admittedly made Raiders too good and venoms too bad. They haven't done anything to present venoms as an alternative, they've only decided to punish us for taking the option that is clearly better.


And now IF this patrol rumor is true, it's another case of GW throwing us a bone and then taking it away because we're chewing on the bone too much. Create rules to make multiple patrols desirable for us, then nerf patrols because we did the thing they offered.
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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 16 2022, 16:34

sekac wrote:
Yeah, people really do not like it when dark Eldar are competitive--GW most of all. We're usually not a good army so on the occasion that GW screws up and accidentally makes us good, people are like "what's this?? This isn't supposed to be!" Then GW does what they can to knock us down into the cellar again.

Yeah, I'm reminded of those who think that Eldar should suck now as punishment for being overpowered in 7th. Because obviously Eldar players deserve to suffer for GW's failings. Rolling Eyes

It's disheartening, too, that so many people fail to differentiate between an army that's strong and an army that's fun. So whenever someone tries to bring up how few units, options and tricks DE actually have at the moment, you're guaranteed to get the response of 'So what? You're doing well in tournaments!', as if that's the sole metric by which a codex is assessed.


sekac wrote:

I'm all for correcting balance issues but it's not like there are many alternatives when something gets taken away. We're supposed to be the mechanized assault force and we are very good at that. Our stuff is super fragile, so to get it to be effective we have to figure out how to get it safely across the board. They admittedly made Raiders too good and venoms too bad. They haven't done anything to present venoms as an alternative, they've only decided to punish us for taking the option that is clearly better.


And now IF this patrol rumor is true, it's another case of GW throwing us a bone and then taking it away because we're chewing on the bone too much. Create rules to make multiple patrols desirable for us, then nerf patrols because we did the thing they offered.

I do think there's an issue wherein DE are "fixed" by people who play against them, not by people who actually play them.

Hence why strong units are nerfed but weak units are never improved, because those making the changes don't understand or care about such issues.

Hence why (as you say) Raiders continue to go up in points, yet nothing is done to fix the serious problems with their only competition. Hence why the Succubus is now 80pts for 6 attacks with a glorified Power Sword (yes, artefacts make her better but there's no reason why the base stats of her weapon couldn't have been improved to match her new cost - so that there isn't such a vast gulf between the different builds). Hence why Beasts are just left in the dirt, etc.

Tbh, I also wish they'd just drop this effort to make us into 3 separate subfactions. All it seems to do is give us far fewer options to work with, whilst also making army-building more awkward than it needs to be. And, if the Patrol rumour is correct, it means we can just be hurt far more severely by changes to the detachment rules, because no other army works this way.

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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 16 2022, 17:27

Soulless Samurai wrote:


I do think there's an issue wherein DE are "fixed" by people who play against them, not by people who actually play them.

Hence why strong units are nerfed but weak units are never improved, because those making the changes don't understand or care about such issues.

Hence why (as you say) Raiders continue to go up in points, yet nothing is done to fix the serious problems with their only competition. Hence why the Succubus is now 80pts for 6 attacks with a glorified Power Sword (yes, artefacts make her better but there's no reason why the base stats of her weapon couldn't have been improved to match her new cost - so that there isn't such a vast gulf between the different builds). Hence why Beasts are just left in the dirt, etc.

Tbh, I also wish they'd just drop this effort to make us into 3 separate subfactions. All it seems to do is give us far fewer options to work with, whilst also making army-building more awkward than it needs to be. And, if the Patrol rumour is correct, it means we can just be hurt far more severely by changes to the detachment rules, because no other army works this way.

I've had that feeling as well. It would explain by far the most of our problems. And usually when a unit gets a boost instead of a nerf, it's because a new box came out that has that unit in it, and they simply want to sell the models. For example, the Piety and Pain box came with a new Lelith, but also with (the old) Wyches, and those gained an extra attack since the previous edition.
And when that turned out to make Wyches and especially Bloodbrides scary, they just multiplied the point-cost by 1,5.

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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 16 2022, 22:52

That reminds me of a discussion I had with a few members in my play group back when 6th Ed dropped and the new DE codex came out ... it was angering to see exactly how much was cut from the codex when it seemed like everyone else was getting new stuff and models to play around with, and that we didn't have anything in terms of formations and such and the only thing anyone could say to me as the sole DE player was "yeah but ... you have dark lances ... you can't really complain because you have dark lances"
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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 17 2022, 22:11

Archon_91 wrote:
That reminds me of a discussion I had with a few members in my play group back when 6th Ed dropped and the new DE codex came out ... it was angering to see exactly how much was cut from the codex when it seemed like everyone else was getting new stuff and models to play around with, and that we didn't have anything in terms of formations and such and the only thing anyone could say to me as the sole DE player was "yeah but ... you have dark lances ... you can't really complain because you have dark lances"

I had the exact same discussion with a fellow gamer in 8th. He's a CW Eldar player but was fond of the "basic bitch spearhead" of archon/3x dissie ravagers alongside his CW army. I was talking about how bad DE were competitively and he was like, "what are you talking about??  Ravagers are amazing!" As if that's all it takes to make an army good. I asked him why those were the only DE units he was taking if the army is in such a good spot. 
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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 21 2022, 11:44

C'mon guys, we're not just "good on tournaments", we are freaking broken. Every nerf we got and we will get with Patrol fixes is right and fine.
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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 21 2022, 13:12

Cerve wrote:
C'mon guys, we're not just "good on tournaments", we are freaking broken. Every nerf we got and we will get with Patrol fixes is right and fine.

"Broken" is an entirely different beast to "too cost effective".

Everything would have been fine after the last points adjustment if it wasn't for the uncalled buff to Coven units. Grotesques and Pain Engines were good before that and GW shifted it towards overpowered territory again??? Of course the meta chasers react and created the Thicc City.

Not to mention that most of our time, our Codex had obviously overpowered combos (DE Liquifiers, busted Succubus builds etc.).

How are you even supposed to have a proper cult force without 2 FA is beyond me. The move is understandable but comes a little late. Changing this mid-edition is just mind boggeling.

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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 21 2022, 14:10

The Strange Dark One wrote:
Cerve wrote:
C'mon guys, we're not just "good on tournaments", we are freaking broken. Every nerf we got and we will get with Patrol fixes is right and fine.

"Broken" is an entirely different beast to "too cost effective".

Everything would have been fine after the last points adjustment if it wasn't for the uncalled buff to Coven units. Grotesques and Pain Engines were good before that and GW shifted it towards overpowered territory again??? Of course the meta chasers react and created the Thicc City.

Not to mention that most of our time, our Codex had obviously overpowered combos (DE Liquifiers, busted Succubus builds etc.).

How are you even supposed to have a proper cult force without 2 FA is beyond me. The move is understandable but comes a little late. Changing this mid-edition is just mind boggeling.

It's true that if they fix the cover we are fine, I agree.


The change on Patrols imho it's not just for us, a lot of other competitive lists relies on Patrols (and soups between them).
In fact, we are the ones that survives better if you think about it.
They're nerfing the Coven already with this: do you want 6 Talos? You need to dedicate 2 Patrols instead of one. 6 Cronos? Same (and I think you will not buy 2 DT Patrols just for them so good bye Cronos).
It suppress our board control, if the "no soup fix" will deny to deploy different subfactions in the same detatchment too. So if you want 2x5 Hellions you need 2 Patrols. Otherwise you have to play 10 of them in a single unit.
It cuts of our silly board control.


Or...as intended...it force us to play with an RSR detatchment. But you have to choose between:
1) RSR: nerfs didn't affect you at all, you (will) have the same choices as before (after the -1 slots). But you will lose Drazhar and Strife;
2) Patrols: you lose on FA and Heavy Support, but you win on HQs, Troops and Elites slots. And you get Drazhar and Strife;
3) RSR+Patrol: You get everything, but you lose CPs. BUT, if the Patrol will cost less (1 CP maybe?) it could our best choice.


After all, we're not in a bad spot at all. Think about GKs, Sisters or Tyr, all of them relies on multi subfaction Patrols. This fix plus the increased points will be pretty bad for them.




...I have to say that if they don't raise Coven up, we still tier S after these changes. But I would take different chages on in points: Grots +3, Talos +5 (because will be harder to fit them), but WRACKS +2 almost. Wracks are really broken for 8ppm.

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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 21 2022, 15:06

i don't think we will have another point revision since our last point revision is already coming from the Monitorum Field Manual 2022 as we were already too broken..............for another broken version....so who knows?
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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 24 2022, 11:01

Agreed with Cerve. We've spent nearly a year on top and are still running with the pack leaders. Our codex holds up well even with the rumored changes, where newer codexes are going to be a lot worse off than us.

The game needs the patrol and soup changes, and Covens need the nerfs that are heading their way. After all is said and done we'll still be a great army, with in-built soup rules, even if we don't consistently net a top-3 GT position.
The only thing that would sting is if we're left out of allying with any of the Eldar factions. It's not that we need the boost to our strength, but we desperately need the variety. Our rules are good, and the nerfs won't change that, but were in desperate need of a wider range of models. People hate on drukhari lists for being copy paste but we have like 3 core options per faction.

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PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 24 2022, 14:33

Dabbarexe wrote:
Agreed with Cerve. We've spent nearly a year on top and are still running with the pack leaders. Our codex holds up well even with the rumored changes, where newer codexes are going to be a lot worse off than us.

The game needs the patrol and soup changes, and Covens need the nerfs that are heading their way. After all is said and done we'll still be a great army, with in-built soup rules, even if we don't consistently net a top-3 GT position.
The only thing that would sting is if we're left out of allying with any of the Eldar factions. It's not that we need the boost to our strength, but we desperately need the variety. Our rules are good, and the nerfs won't change that, but were in desperate need of a wider range of models. People hate on drukhari lists for being copy paste but we have like 3 core options per faction.

Even more than that, we need discount in other never-used models (Beasts first of all).

And MAYBE, if GW wants, just 1-2 erratas on worse obsessions (like why they cut off rerolling 1s on Flayed Skulls?).

With no more than 1 subfaction, they should make more room for competition between Kabals-Kabaks, Cults-Cults, Covens-Conves.
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Burnage


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So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? Empty
PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 24 2022, 21:14

I think after the last year (and particularly the unfortunate Covens buffs in November), asking for any positive changes to us is probably just going to earn the ire of the rest of the 40k community. We'll still have plenty of options to work with, even if some parts of our book wind up being slightly below par.
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So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? Empty
PostSubject: Re: So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?   So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now? I_icon_minitime

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So Ynnari are more or less part of Craftworld now?
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