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Kalmah
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Dalamar
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 03 2021, 17:58

Two new GT missions are here down load them from the Warhammer Community article.

So what do we think of them Primary scoring 4/8/12 with no mission secondary but a second primary that can grab up to 15 points. So we now have 63 possible Primary point available to reach the max 45 instead of 60, but 15 of them are not locked to hold 1/2/more.  I think they think this will help stop a runaway on primary.  It seems interesting.
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 03 2021, 22:16

So I'm watching the Stream and Mike Brandt is using some changed secondaries.

ROD is Dead. you now do the action then when complete you roll a die and if the roll is less than the number of models in the unit you succeed if not you fail. You also subtract 1 from the roll if the unit is troops.

No Prisoners same except if at the end of the game your kill tally is 50-99 gain +1VP, if tally is 100+ gain +2VP.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 04 2021, 01:41

So... ROD will be acquired via mandrake units of 6 (and maybe Scourge units of 6).
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 04 2021, 17:16

@Dalamar wrote:
So what do we think of them Primary scoring 4/8/12 with no mission secondary but a second primary that can grab up to 15 points. So we now have 63 possible Primary point available to reach the max 45 instead of 60, but 15 of them are not locked to hold 1/2/more.  I think they think this will help stop a runaway on primary.  It seems interesting.

I don’t think it'll do much to prevent running away with the primaries, but it does help a player score some primaries, even if their opponent is running away with it. Matchups that would result 45 to 0 splits, might start to become 45 to 12 or 15 on primaries. It increases the player's chance to win only a little, but it doesn't knock them down as far in the standings either.


I think what it's mostly there to do is increase the range of scores possible on primaries. With the current system there are only 10 possible scores on primary: 0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, and 45. 


With the new system: 0, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 and on and on... Much more variance which means you're far less likely to have multiple people with identical scores and tiebreakers like strength of schedule or margin of victory come up less often.
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 06 2021, 14:32

@sekac wrote:
@Dalamar wrote:
So what do we think of them Primary scoring 4/8/12 with no mission secondary but a second primary that can grab up to 15 points. So we now have 63 possible Primary point available to reach the max 45 instead of 60, but 15 of them are not locked to hold 1/2/more.  I think they think this will help stop a runaway on primary.  It seems interesting.

I don’t think it'll do much to prevent running away with the primaries, but it does help a player score some primaries, even if their opponent is running away with it. Matchups that would result 45 to 0 splits, might start to become 45 to 12 or 15 on primaries. It increases the player's chance to win only a little, but it doesn't knock them down as far in the standings either.


I think what it's mostly there to do is increase the range of scores possible on primaries. With the current system there are only 10 possible scores on primary: 0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, and 45. 


With the new system: 0, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 and on and on... Much more variance which means you're far less likely to have multiple people with identical scores and tiebreakers like strength of schedule or margin of victory come up less often.

Well put, I had not thought of that.. My thoughts were that If I can hold just one and do the mission primary then I get 31 points out of 45, I think it has more options at playing the game.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 07 2021, 01:46

I am more interested in the changes to Bring It Down, now counting 10W models as 2 VPs.

Means our Raiders now give up 2VP each, which is a lot less attractive. Will need to pair down even more, and we were already not running many boats.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 07 2021, 11:17

@fisheyes wrote:
I am more interested in the changes to Bring It Down, now counting 10W models as 2 VPs.

Means our Raiders now give up 2VP each, which is a lot less attractive. Will need to pair down even more, and we were already not running many boats.

Do you think that change makes Venoms more attractive?

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 07 2021, 14:14

@fisheyes wrote:
I am more interested in the changes to Bring It Down, now counting 10W models as 2 VPs.

Means our Raiders now give up 2VP each, which is a lot less attractive. Will need to pair down even more, and we were already not running many boats.

Oof. This is a pretty terrible change, IMO. It seems like it was done specifically to make it easier to score points against Drukhari. I can't see who else this affects nearly as much as us or even what other army takes an abundance of vehicles with exactly 10 wounds. Space marine players won't care, they'll just take Relic Contemptors over Redempters again.


Raiders are already easy to kill which is bad for us. Rewarding players for accomplishing something they already have to do to fight us seems weird. Just giving out easy VP to anyone playing against Drukhari.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 07 2021, 14:47

so if i get it right..........we did receive 3 nerfs since our Codex release? and two in like the same month? The point increase and now this?
Damn.............were we such an aberrance in the meta?

I don't follow the competitive scene, but isn't it a bit drastic?
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 07 2021, 15:58

@Kalmah wrote:
so if i get it right..........we did receive 3 nerfs since our Codex release? and two in like the same month? The point increase and now this?
Damn.............were we such an aberrance in the meta?

I don't follow the competitive scene, but isn't it a bit drastic?

I think some of the nerfs were necessary but the manner in which they were inflicted was awful.

- Dark Technomancer Liquifier Guns were absurd so I can fully understand them simply cutting off the interaction altogether.
However, Coven doesn't have a whole lot of ranged weapons to begin with, so couldn't they have removed all-consuming from Dark Technomancers to reflect it becoming a far more niche trait?

- It's highly dubious that Succubi needed a price hike at all. However, even assuming that they did (because of some specific artefact/WLT combinations), why couldn't they have improved their base weapons to actually be worth the cost? As it stands, you pay 80pts for a T3 "melee" character with 6 S5 Power Sword attacks. If they, for example, raised the damage of the Succubus' Glaive to 2, it wouldn't affect the problematic artefact/WLT combinations but would help make the model less stupidly overpriced with less optimal builds.

I know I've complained about this before but it seems no less absurd that taking a specific artefact literally quadruples the Succubus' killing power.

- Similar story with the Archon. He wasn't hit as hard but it's still an extra 5pts on a model that already felt about 30pts overcosted to start with. Again, could we not at least get +1S back on his Huskblade (and or +1 damage on the Agoniser or Venom Blade)? Won't affect the Djin Blade build at all but would make other builds that little bit more reasonable.

- Trueborn and Bloodbrides have basically ceased to exist. The former was saddled with a hefty tax. on top of the existing tax and the HQ tax and the extra tax you need to pay on top of the HQ tax to access them. The latter was already probably the least valuable of the upgraded models and nevertheless had its cost increased further on top of the extra price increase for normal wyches.

- As for the point increase for Wyches, maybe it was necessary but I feel like we're now in a situation where none of our troops are really worth taking beyond the minimum. Warriors are glass pillows, Wyches are functional but starting to look overly expensive for T3, 6++ models, Wracks are okay but don't generally bring much compared to other Coven stuff.

- The troop situation also isn't helped by Raiders now being 105pts minimum. Could it not at least have been combined with a 10pt price drop on the Venom, which is currently 85pts for capacity6 and weapons a step below a pair of Heavy Bolters? Even then, I doubt you'd see many outside of Poison Tongue.

To put it a different way, these changes feel like they were made by an outsider improving how it feels for SMs to play against DE, not by someone who actually plays DE player trying to make the army more reasonable but also more fun for its own players to build and play.

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 07 2021, 17:32

I was ok with the point increase, even if some are a little bit too harsh (wyches) but i can live with that.
However, playing with the victory point is a big no no for me!

As stated by @fisheyes we live and die based on our transports, and now they are almost becoming our Achille talon, knowing they can easily be destroyed and by doing so gives a load of VP to the opponent.

They really want us to play Coven lately, with their point decrease and the fact that they are less in need of transports.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 07 2021, 19:14

It's certainly weird that there's no exception for dedicated transports.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 07 2021, 22:59

TBF, it does appear that we are still top dogs in the META. It may take a little while for things to shake out, but my gut tells me DE are still running the show.

But that doesnt stop us from griping about it Razz

I have also noticed that its becoming more important to put Coven into your new lists with less transports. If you cant take transports, you basically cant take half our army roster.

Grotesques in an AotF patrol seem to be where my brain is going. Have the wyches sitting behind a wall, with the Grots up front waving a "keep away" sign.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 08 2021, 02:44

@fisheyes wrote:
TBF, it does appear that we are still top dogs in the META. It may take a little while for things to shake out, but my gut tells me DE are still running the show.

But that doesnt stop us from griping about it Razz

While that might be true, there's absolutely no way to know if both points hikes AND targeted nerfs are necessary. I much prefer iterative nerfs so they can see what changes and continue to adjust things as necessary. Adjusting the points felt right for Raiders. It only makes sense that Disintegrators are less than lances and now things are aligned in a way that we have to make a choice. Stacking that with "All Raiders 10 wound vehicles  Wink  are 2 VP on bring them down" just feels like someone else's idea at the meeting and they didn't want to shut anyone's idea down.


If we're on top, I have no issue whatsoever with adjusting things until we're in line with other books. Make things that are too good less desirable and things that are not good, more so. But increasing the VP for killing Raiders is just lazy. It's not a balance adjustment, it's just taking a core part of how our army is supposed to function and turning it into some of the easiest VPs our opponents can stumble across. Does it reward them for playing well? Not at all. You have the ability to kill T6 vehicles? Congrats, have VPs! 


Can I have free VPs for killing dreads? Literally every single space marine list regardless of chapter is based on an absolute MINIMUM of 3 dreads. There are far, far, far more dreads in the meta than Raiders. A codex with over 100 datasets is reduced to 2 dreads to choose between and a few data sheets to compliment the dreads and a chapter chosen to suit the dreads to the meta. There is nothing more meta-warping and design space killing than the dread plague. But that needn't be addressed. 


The problem is there is still one codex in the game that takes dedicated transports. Gotta put an end to that. Every transport should be dedicated to collecting dust!

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 11 2021, 06:56

I wasn't sure which Kabal to play.
Now I know I'm going to take poison tongue venom spam.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 12 2021, 16:24

I'm not too worried about raiders giving up an extra VP, especially in a meta where most lists are taking fewer raiders anyway, due to the points hike.

The missions are designed to make for closer games and fewer ones where the loser just gets outright slaughtered. If this results in top DE lists winning at 90-40 rather than 90-20, as I usually see, then this is a good thing; maybe it will cause most/all of the usual 40k media sources to quit whining about how overpowered we are. Denying VPs is important, for sure... but not nearly as much as gaining VPs yourself, and, as far as I can tell, we are still quite good at doing that.
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PostSubject: Re: New Missions   New Missions I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 14 2021, 17:08

Also the changes to the Shadow Operation secondaries (generally those involving Actions) have changed a lot. Allowing Bikes to perform more actions is interesting, the increased value of 5 man Troop squads (which will make Transports even more valuable), and the general motion away from the standard Engage+ROD secondaries that most armies take.

I do believe that Venoms will have increased value in the New Meta. My revised lists have started toying around with removing Scourge and replacing with Bikes. May be a little more costly, but the speed is very nice. Far too early to tell if this is where the Meta will go, but its allowing for some interesting experimentation.
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