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 Rise of the dreadknights

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sekac
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duckduckgoose
Hellion
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PostSubject: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 21 2021, 21:31

With the new Grey Knights codex out, there is a really strong build that has won a number of majors that runs 4-5 dreadknights.

If you’re not aware, the baseline stats are
M6” WS/BS3+ S/T 6 W13 A5 LD8 2+/4++
all for 120 pts. They can then take a number of powerful upgrades including some S5/6 guns with a lot of shots that could be pretty nasty to our raiders, and a teleporter. Most people are running them at 185 points with a teleporter, great sword, psilencer and psycannon. Plus they are psykers.

They haven’t shown up in my local meta yet, but I think it’s probably just a matter of time.

What are approaches to countering these lists that run 4 or 5 of these (2 as HQ)? Dark lances, blasters and heat lances are of course still going to be important, but with the 4++ that means that 50” of wounds are saved. On average it’s going to take something like 12 Dark lance shots to bring them down! (Assuming an average of 5 damage per successful shot) Does that mean we just need to take more dark lances/blasters, I.e on ravagers and scourges?

I could see some of our CC units being effective. Incubi will be OK, but T6 will hurt, with a squad of five doing on average 4 wounds. Drazhar as a warlord will almost kill one, on average doing 11 wounds, so with better than average rolls he could solo one in a turn. A 10 man unit of Cursed Blade hellions with +1 strength would do on average 6-7 wounds. Couple that with eviscerating flybly for 3 mortal wounds and on average you’re doing 9-10 wounds. I could also see shock prow raiders being a reasonable way to chip away a few mortal wounds. Charge them in to absorb overwatch (hopefully survive) and then on a 2+ do D3 mortal wounds

I’m thinking that without tailoring our lists, the most effective strategy will be to try to soften them up at range, and then come in for the kill in close combat. What do other people think?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 21 2021, 22:19

I've encountered some Dreadknights in a fairly one-sided game and Draz, Succubi and Incubi seemed to make short work of them - but I'm not sure that's representative of how the match-up normally goes.

Talos seem like they might be a good answer on paper. With Heat Lances, an Ichor Injector and a Gauntlet each one will be doing about 5 wounds on average and they're tough enough to survive some dents.
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 22 2021, 02:49

Probably a stupid questions, but do those babycarriers have the vehicle keyword?

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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 22 2021, 02:50

They do indeed
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 22 2021, 03:05

Too bad. No shardweapons...

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 22 2021, 13:59

@Zenotaph wrote:
Too bad. No shardweapons...

Except with the Poten Metalotoxin strats!.....but against 2+/4++ is it truly worth mentionning? Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 22 2021, 15:02

With enough Splintercannons. At least, thats what I first thought. But no, Vehicle keyword.
Thats what I liked about most T'au battlesuits. No vehicle keyword.

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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 22 2021, 15:52

Ya, reallly wish the Metallotoxins worked on the Succubus Whip (unfortunately doesnt work on Relics).

Doing some quick research, it appears the 4++ is a Strat, so can only be used on a single DK per turn. They are also only S6, so PoF Wracks should be able to tie them up pretty good. Same with a block of Wyches with the 4++ save in CC.

Unfortunately we will need to charge 2 units into them to guarintee a kill. This means that they can throw out an Interrupt and really mess with us. To counter the Interrupt, make sure you are charging multiple DKs each turn, so that an Interrupt will only screw with one combat.

Lances will be our primary solution to this problem, with Characters and Incubi/Wyches being our secondary solution. Be very careful of their "teleport away after getting targetted by a shooting attack" power that triggers once per game. Same with the once per game 3++ save that a GMNDK can take.

Main thing we need to take away is that these are still Vehicles who do not have Fly, cost about 200 pts each, and can teleport around like crazy. Zone out the board to prevent teleports, abuse Ruins so that they cannot charge thru, dont forget about the "teleport away" ability or the 3++ abilities.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing to remember is the over all GK game plan. They want to score Secondaries like any army, and they are generally going for their own Purifying Ritual. This is a psykic action (so a unit can still shoot/punch, but cant do any other powers), needs to be within 6" range of 3 Objectives to score max points (this can be extended to 9" with one of their Strats), every turn.

If we can take out these units, they will need to spend valuable DKs to do the actions. My main plan will be to use Reavers to start screwing with their action monkeys. Lances are peppering their more vulnerable DKs (the ones without the 4++ or 3++), and Incubi are trading up with their Shrikes/DKs. Play defensive to start, then go on the offensive around Turn 3.

Thats my $0.02 anyway. Got a big tourney tomorrow, so going to see if all my theories translate into IRL wins, hahaha
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 22 2021, 16:27

The 4++ on Dreadknights isn't a stratagem, it's a basic part of their datasheet.
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 22 2021, 18:12

Yeah @fisheyes all dreadknights have a 2+/4++ base… they might not be as squishy as you’re expecting
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 23 2021, 00:46

I notice DKs are only Ld8. What about massed PGLs (possibly combined with Grizzly Trophies or somesuch)?

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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 23 2021, 00:58

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
I notice DKs are only Ld8. What about massed PGLs (possibly combined with Grizzly Trophies or somesuch)?

Sounds like a job for Dark Creed. And lots of Incubi.
Maybe a Succubus with precision blows and dancers edge could work too.
every 6+ to hit gives MWs. And every 6+ to wound passes without invul safes.

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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 25 2021, 17:08

10 CoS hellions with adrenlight and using the reroll wounds strat will do it. Talos with injectors and gauntlets are also a decent choice, either of those will be good especially if you can soften up the dreadknight with lances first.
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 25 2021, 18:45

Dont forget that GK get a 5+++ FNP against Mortals, so PLGs may not be the solution.

After all my worrying about GK, ended up not playing them once in 6 rounds. So my theories remain just that, a Theory XD
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 25 2021, 19:55

@fisheyes wrote:
Dont forget that GK get a 5+++ FNP against Mortals, so PLGs may not be the solution.

Ah okay. Sorry, it's been at least two editions since I faced Grey Knights so I'm not very familiar with their current rules. Razz

In that case, it seems like there's no good solution beyond pumping firepower into it until it stops moving.

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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 25 2021, 19:57

Yeah DK’s seem kind of OP to be honest. 2+/4++/5+++ against MWs! Plus some excellent shooting and melee and ability to teleport
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 25 2021, 21:35

That leaves one question: What is the weakness of a Dreadknight?

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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 26 2021, 01:32

@Zenotaph wrote:
That leaves one question: What is the weakness of a Dreadknight?

They don't have damage reduction, so spike damage can bring them down (if they fail their 4++). It's not much, but the problem is just that they are way, way under costed. Should probably be 180 or so.
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 26 2021, 01:57

Uh, I just watched it on Battlescribe. Fully equipped, with Greatsword, Teleporter, Gatlin Psylencer and heavy Psicannon,
that thing just costs only 185pts. 13W, Psyker with Smite and Hammerhand. It only has one tiny weakness. 24" weaponsrange.
But that is mostly negated by small tables and their Teleporters. A squad of Trueborn in a Raider will need the devils own luck.
And a Ravager supporting them. Or two.

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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 26 2021, 15:34

Ya, I think the solution is mass damage 2. 5 Incubi deal about 6 damage assuming only a 4++ and no buffs. I think the solution is to throw in 5 Incubi and 10 wyches. May not fully kill it, but will tie it up for a while.

For sure need to shoot Lances at the Knights without the 3+
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 26 2021, 18:29

Has anybody ever tried Haywire weapons against GK babycarriers?
Autowounding on 4+, AP-3 with D3D. And every 6 to wound gives D3 MW.
Thats a lot 4++/5+++ to throw.

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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 26 2021, 19:14

That is actually a really good idea in the current meta.

Hmmm... *strokes beard menacingly*
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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 26 2021, 19:16

@Zenotaph wrote:
Has anybody ever tried Haywire weapons against GK babycarriers?
Autowounding on 4+, AP-3 with D3D. And every 6 to wound gives D3 MW.
Thats a lot 4++/5+++ to throw.

FWIW, 4 Scourges with Haywire averages ~3.9 wounds on a DK, or ~2.9 wounds if they moved or deep struck.

The same Scourges with Dark Lances will average 4.4 wounds if they remained still or 3.3 wounds otherwise.

Heat Lance Scourges will average 3.7 wounds if they move (4.9 in the unlikely event that they remained stationary).

Blasters are worse than Heat Lances or Dark Lances even if the former moves (3.1 wounds).

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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 26 2021, 21:43

Thats the pure math, ist it? With or without the saves of the Dreadknight?

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PostSubject: Re: Rise of the dreadknights   Rise of the dreadknights I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 26 2021, 22:29

@Zenotaph wrote:
Thats the pure math, ist it? With or without the saves of the Dreadknight?

I've included the 4++ and the 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds.

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