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 Ravagers in 9th

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Zenotaph
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 26 2021, 16:44

Scourge are interesting. Since they are Infantry with a Heavy weapon, they are already hitting at -1 to hit. So they Aircraft rule doesnt affect them much.

Talos only hit on 4s. 5s vs Aircraft. I ran the numbers, and even with the Ichor Injector and Gauntlet they are doing like 3-4 wounds on average vs a plane (EDIT - in close combat. Have not run the numbers for their heat lances in shooting, but my gut tells me the results wont be favorable).

I do have a spicy idea for anti tank that nobody is talking about, but I want to playtest it a few times first. My only hint is that I am stealing it from Sean Nayden Wink
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 26 2021, 17:40

@burnage i tried the custom Precise Killer and Test of Skill (precise skills i call it) and man i loved it!
It was for a 1000pts game and i only played a Cult detachment, but every vehicles and monster that crossed my path became junkscrap.
Hellions became absolute killers as well as my Wyches.
The blade artist on 5+ is really insane, especially with the Bloodbrides.

I highly encourage you to try it!
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 27 2021, 07:40

@Kalmah wrote:
@burnage i tried the custom Precise Killer and Test of Skill (precise skills i call it) and man i loved it!
It was for a 1000pts game and i only played a Cult detachment, but every vehicles and monster that crossed my path became junkscrap.
Hellions became absolute killers as well as my Wyches.
The blade artist on 5+ is really insane, especially with the Bloodbrides.

I highly encourage you to try it!

Is it really worth it? You wound them on 5s or 6s only. Do enough wounds accumulate?
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 27 2021, 10:43

@Burnage wrote:
I am becoming increasingly dissatisfied with Trueborn as anti-tank; they're undoubtedly good, but considering I'm basically only taking an Archon to unlock them they're not necessarily 315 points good (including their transport cost here). Problem is; I'm not entirely sure what to replace them with.

The obvious option, in mind, is Talos as anti-tank. With Artisans, Heat Lances, Ichor Injectors and Gauntlets they're a big threat that are especially good at cracking open Ramshackle vehicles. Bonus points for being one of the more durable options in our Codex still, downside being that they're not strictly that efficient offensively.

Heat Lance Scourges are always an option. 100 points for the same number of special/heavy weapon shots as the Trueborn and their Raider combined with the benefit of a higher damage average, but the severe drawback of hitting on 4s whenever they move or deep strike.

One option that I've seen thrown around, which I'm honestly getting more and more curious about on paper, is using a custom Wych Cult of Precise Killers and Test of Skill. This actually makes basic Wyches a surprisingly viable threat against vehicles, but - man, losing access to the Cult of Strife relics and strats hurts. On the plus side it frees up Draz to be your warlord.

So, I dunno. There are clear alternative options here and I feel like I need to experiment with them.

Any love for Reavers as anti-tank?

I know heavy weapons are 1-per-3 but Heat Lances do more damage than Dark Lances and Reavers can fire them at BS2+ with no penalty for moving.

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 27 2021, 11:16

Reavers as Ravagerreplacement? Could work. Well, depending in free fast slots and the detachements you want.
After all, Ravager is Kabal and Reavers are Cult. Still, I think, it could work. But 3 Reavers are 180pts plus the lances.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 27 2021, 12:39

@Zenotaph wrote:
Reavers as Ravagerreplacement? Could work. Well, depending in free fast slots and the detachements you want.
After all, Ravager is Kabal and Reavers are Cult. Still, I think, it could work. But 3 Reavers are 180pts plus the lances.

That's true. They're not cheap by any measure and if you're going for pure efficiency, I imagine Scourges will win out.

However, Reavers do have moderate staying power (at least compared to stuff like Scourges) with T4, 2 wounds and a 4+/6++. Plus 2/3 of any squad is effectively expendable.

They're also not at all bad in melee. 9 CB Reavers will throw out 28 S5 AP-1 attacks.

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 27 2021, 12:50

Well, when you can afford to field them, dont miss the Grav-Talon. Nice gadget. And the flyby strat is also nice to have.
Ideally you fly over the enemy, hope for strat MWs, then shoot, bump in with the hope of MWs and then eat up the rest.

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 27 2021, 13:19

@CptMetal wrote:
@Kalmah wrote:
@burnage i tried the custom Precise Killer and Test of Skill (precise skills i call it) and man i loved it!
It was for a 1000pts game and i only played a Cult detachment, but every vehicles and monster that crossed my path became junkscrap.
Hellions became absolute killers as well as my Wyches.
The blade artist on 5+ is really insane, especially with the Bloodbrides.

I highly encourage you to try it!

Is it really worth it? You wound them on 5s or 6s only. Do enough wounds accumulate?

Hellions have a base S4, their helglaive gives +1S (now S5) and given the proper Combat Drug, you can increase to S6.
So against everything T11 and less, you wound on 5+ naturally and with the Test of Skill Obsession you will wound on 4+

So my answer is yes this is enough.
After that, each successful wound roll have a decent AP (don't forget Blade artist on 5+) and D characteristic.

The thing i like here is that Hellions become an interesting all-around unit. May it be against Vehicles or Hordes, something a lot of Anti Tank options lack when facing anything other than vehicles.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 27 2021, 13:38

@Kalmah: Hellions have a base S3. You play too much Cursed Blade. Wink

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 27 2021, 13:40

@CptMetal wrote:
@Kalmah wrote:
@burnage i tried the custom Precise Killer and Test of Skill (precise skills i call it) and man i loved it!
It was for a 1000pts game and i only played a Cult detachment, but every vehicles and monster that crossed my path became junkscrap.
Hellions became absolute killers as well as my Wyches.
The blade artist on 5+ is really insane, especially with the Bloodbrides.

I highly encourage you to try it!

Is it really worth it? You wound them on 5s or 6s only. Do enough wounds accumulate?

So one of the more interesting use cases seems to be versus Ork buggy spam (which is another of the top tier lists currently doing the rounds) - PK/ToS is about a 50% increase in expected damage for Wyches against them over something like Strife or even Cursed Blade. I'd be very hesitant to have it as your only anti-tank but I can definitely see the utility in a build that lets your Wyches act as back-up anti-tank units.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 27 2021, 14:04

@zenotaph oups so true! sorry about that!
Lately i've been playing with my TS army (traitor that i am!!) so i'm a little bit rusty here Wink
Indeed so just change the status from T11 to T9 (which covers a vast array of vehicles nonetheless).
And wounding on 5+ with this much attack isn't that bad either against sturdier models.

Again, i'm not saying that this is THE best solutions for dealing with vehicles, but i think its one of the most versatile.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 27 2021, 18:10

For my $0.02, I think that Reavers and Ravagers are apples and oranges. (PS I run both in my current list).

Ravagers get the range, and can stay in the back field to help screen out opposing DS units. Reavers are a multi-tool, able to qucikly get into engagement range and mess things up with MWs, CC, plus the shooting potential. But need to get Danger Close in the process, and generally die immediately after.

In most of my games, the Reavers hide in the back until Turn 3, boost up the field, kill something, then die immediately after.

Ravager starts contributing Turn 1 blasting fools that expose themselves and are a constant nusance all game.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 28 2021, 12:08

@fisheyes wrote:
For my $0.02, I think that Reavers and Ravagers are apples and oranges. (PS I run both in my current list).

I don't disagree.

I was suggesting Reavers more as a replacement for Trueborn than for Ravagers.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 28 2021, 13:27

Concerning reavers as scourges/ravagers replacement :
reavers with heat lances and splintermind (+1 BS) are an okay antitank, around 60% of the anti-tank effectiveness of scourges with heat lances for the same points (taking into account the -1 to hit of scourges), but they are also sturdier and better in melee (especially CB, since grave lotus is overkill on them anyway).

If you want to get the most out of your reavers, I think you have to charge something in the same turn you try and pop that tank, and either :
-hope you do some damage before dying.
-take caltrops and hope your opponent gets intimidated by the prospect of taking MW if he retreats, but in general talons are better.
-charge something that's already locked in with your wyches, like a big blob of necrons warrior, and hope your opponent doesn't win the roll-off to fall back.

Never stationary is better on scourges, I wouldn't bother.

Either way your opponent still has to take out 3/6/9 T4 2W models, and he HAS to get rid of the whole squad to get to your anti-tank weapons (unlike scourges, where every kill nets him something), so he probably will overcommit, if your 6 reavers manage to shave 6 wounds off a T7 tank (which they will on average) and kill something like 5 necrons warriors in melee (again, pretty average, assuming CB), before dying to 150 pts worth of shooting (didn't do the maths on that one), I'd say they've done their job. And if they survive, they'll probably double their value.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 28 2021, 13:47

Hmm, I think you may be over estimating the effectiveness of Reavers as an Anti Tank platform.

I think a good metric to test against would be the Contemptor Dreadnaught that is in every Marine list.

T7, 3+/5++ with -1 damage.

Assuming you have Splintermind (+1BS), and a 210 point unit with 3 Heat Lances.

3 shots, hitting on 2s, wounding on 3s, saving on a 5++, doing 4.5 damage (D6+2-1 average) means you are only doing about 5 wounds of damage vs the 185 point VolCon.

Ravager can sit in the way back, and Fire and Fade into cover, for 140 points

3 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s (with 1 reroll for Obsidian Rose), saving on a 5++, 4 damage (D3+3-1) would be roughly the same.

But it costs much less, and can sit at range or hide for a second turn of use. In my experience, Reavers will die after they move into position, while the Ravager keeps on giving.

Not saying Reavers are bad (they are not), but not a dedicated Anti Tank platform like the Ravager. Also not as suseptable to AdMech planes (which will kill a Ravager really easy, but struggle to wipe the Reaver squad).

As I say, apples and oranges.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 28 2021, 14:49

i think we can all agree that Reavers are the swiss knife of our army while the Ravager is a one trick poney (unless we talk here a Dissie Ravager or a mix of Dissie Dark LAnce).

I agree with @fisheyes in the way that they are not really comparable in the ultimate sense of term.
They both fulfill a role and this would be sad if both were doing the same thing.
Its only a good news to know that they don't do the same thing.

But i gotta say that for now, Reavers are amongst the models i struggle most to play and totally understand how to best play them.

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 28 2021, 15:13

I woudnt mix weapons on a Ravager. First, there are situations, where you must decide, where to be.
Left side against tank? Right side against infantry? Or middle, trying both, but achieving none?
Second, just use Dissi Raiders. They could do the same, but without sacrificing their battlefield role, as the Ravager would.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 28 2021, 16:55

Ravagers are pretty sweet.

Ironically, the best buff they could get right now is -1 wound. If only they didnt give up 2VPs for Bring It Down...
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 28 2021, 17:24

-1 to hit would also be nice. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 28 2021, 19:59

Thats what Dense terrain is for Wink

Damn I love me some dense terrain, espically in the middle board. So OP for us, especially our more fragile FLY units like the humble Ravager
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 28 2021, 20:21

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 04 2021, 07:28

@duckduckgoose wrote:
Yeah agreed, does not seem very much effective for the points cost

They are my MVP almost everytime I use them. They don't survive for long, but they always kill more than their cost. They disrupt the battleline, score linebreaker and wreck big toys. If the ennemy is infantry heavy instead of tank, they are still usefull.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 05 2021, 14:24

Dude, I feel the same way. I dont really like Trueborn, but nothing else can take out planes with the same efficiency.

Ive tried Hellions, Reavers, Ravagers, Warriors. Will try out units of 2 Talos next, but its apples and oranges...
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 26 2021, 14:41

Possibly another stupid question: The 10/5 pts for DL/Dissi update is only for Raiders, right?
The Ravager isnt affected by the change. At least, thats what Battlescribe tells me...

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers in 9th   Ravagers in 9th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 07 2021, 01:52

Correct, Ravagers unaffected by the point adjustment of Raider Dark Lances.

However, Raiders going up to 2VP each will affect how many boats/monsters we can realistically bring to a competitive table. IMO we shouldent give up more than 8-9 VP to Bring It Down.

I think 1 Trueborn Raider, 1 Ravager, and some Talos is just about all you should bring.

Certainly got my head all twisted up
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