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 Buffing Blades for hire

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fisheyes
Burnage
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Zenotaph
Wych
Zenotaph

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PostSubject: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 15 2021, 15:59

Well, I did a bit of thinking about our beloved obsessionless Blades for hire. And its true, they are good enough without buffs.
Not, that they could get much, but, just maybe but, there is a way to give them at least the Archon aura without sacrificing too much.

My thoughts first went in the typical direction of using 3 different detachements.
The normal Wych- and Coven-Detachements would look as normal as ever.
But instead of a normal Kabal Section, one could use a RSR. Nowhere in our Codex is written, it must contain all factions.
Just take the usual Archon and Kabalites with BH Obsession and Writ and all Incubi and Scourges could profit from it.

So, do I miss something? Or is this a glitch? Could this work?

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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 15 2021, 18:06

A Realspace Raid detachment explicitly needs one Archon, Succubus, Haemonculus and at least one unit each of Kabalites, Wyches and Wracks - it's on page 49 of the Codex. You can't just declare a RSR with only Kabal units in it.
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Zenotaph
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 15 2021, 18:27

I just realized that. Its written a bit complicated in the german Codex. Its like stabbing someone from behind through the chest in the eye...

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fisheyes
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fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 15 2021, 20:30

Lol, great metaphor. Fits perfectly with our faction Wink

IMHO the only buff that Blades really need is Draz, and thats just for the Incubi.

Scourge and Mandrakes are great because they go behind enemy lines and score you points. Once they score those points, they tend to pick on weak backfield units. Dont think its really worth getting an Archon back there to buff them, especially once you jump thru all the restrictions of the RSR. Of course you could build a RSR around the Scourge mobile firepower, but I havent seen it done yet.

Incubi are just amazing "trade up" units. All the top lists are running 3x5 from my brief flip thru (its honestly getting kinda boring reading the same thing again and again). IMO the reason they are so great is they can punk units that cost far more than their 80 pt cost. If you throw an Archon next to them to re-roll 1s (doesnt need a RSR for this), suddenly that trade isnt as efficient.

Draz turns them into Beast Mode, when you transition from "trade up" strategy to "kill everything" strategy.

But this is purely my opinion, and from a Competitive point of view.

Curious to read what you Archons are thinking.
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Zenotaph
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 15 2021, 22:58

I wanted the Blades to have +1 PfP. A Black Heart RSR could do that. But it shouldnt be.
Well, another thought and thread wasted. At least I could humor our Neo. Wink

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Burnage
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Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 16 2021, 12:23

I'm sort of souring on the RSR myself, although I'm pretty sure I'm behind the curve on that and most others have ditched it a while ago. It provides a pretty marginal benefit to mercs; Shredders love the reroll if they can get in range of the Archon, but that tends to put one or both of them fairly out of position. Turn 1 advance and charge can work for Incubi, but usually just gets them killed.

Meanwhile it forces the inclusion of a Haemonculus and unit of Wracks, which are respectively our most overpriced character and our (arguably) worst Troops choice. I've tried running a big blob of Haemoxytes in a RSR quite a lot now and I can't shake the feeling that those 200 points would be better spent on other things.
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fisheyes
Incubi
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 16 2021, 12:33

@Zenotaph wrote:
I wanted the Blades to have +1 PfP. A Black Heart  RSR could do that. But it shouldnt be.
Well, another thought and thread wasted. At least I could humor our Neo. Wink

Sorry for killing the mood.

For the record, despite my avatar pic, I am neither Computer Jesus or Dark Eldar Jesus. I my opinion is just that, the opinion of some random dude on the internet. Please treat all my comments as worth slightly less than toilet paper Wink

That being said, I think there is something for a Black Heart RSR to give Incubi the Turn 1 Advance+Charge. With how fast AdMech can put a big block of Skitarii in our face, having a unit with a 20" threat range is very nice.

Not sure if the Damage Buffs are worth it, but the speed may very well be worth the cost to people smarter than myself.

I could also be messing with the lot of you, trying to ensure my dominance within Commoragh by telling you all not to do what I am doing Wink

Edit:
I actually really like Wracks right now. The Haemi costs as much as a 10 Wrack unit, and I think we all know which is better. Ive found that multiple 10 Wrack squads (in Profits of Flesh) really help fill the role of durable objective holder/screener. Honestly been my most valuable troop for the last few months (yes, better than Wyches).
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Zenotaph
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 16 2021, 14:51

Im pretty sure, I know what you are not. Its just fun to interact with your Avatar.
I quoted Mae West, without beeing or knowing her. lol!

About the Wracks: I really like them. They are perfect for objective holding. Durable and dependable.
Maybe not so overpowered like some other units in our Codex, but other Codices would love to have them.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 16 2021, 20:38

I'm not even saying Wracks are bad, to clarify, I just think they're the least desirable use of a Troops slot compared to Trueborn or Wyches. YMMV on that, obviously.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 16 2021, 21:32

Trueborn are upgraded Kabalites. You hardly have more than 1-2 Units in a 2000pts match.
And they have a completely different role in the game. Put 10 Trueborn and 10 Wracks each on a different objective.
Who do you think lasts longer? I know, where I would put my money on. Wink

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 17 2021, 20:50

Oh, for sure, totally different roles.

Just want to make sure we are not discounting the humble Wrack. IMO its the secret sauce for going into the mirror match. Those sado-masicist space elves have won me many a mirror match.

Also, with TS coming into the meta, I think they are our main counter (not the Helm of Spite, which is hot garbage). Try throwing 15 MWs at me when I got 10 dudes with a 5+++ (and I roll hot).

Getting back on topic, anyone else have any suggestions for making the most of our Merc friends? Really wish our Scourge could jump in our Raiders. Could be a fun gunboat late game (but they are explicitly not allowed to do this).

Really wanting to drop my Trueborn, would love for the Scourge to fill that role, but I dont have the brainpower to figure out how.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 17 2021, 20:59

Yeah, I think one has to make a distinction between Trueborn and regular Kabalites. I'd consider the former to my my most desirable troop choice, whilst the latter is my least desirable. Razz


@fisheyes wrote:

Scourge and Mandrakes are great because they go behind enemy lines and score you points. Once they score those points, they tend to pick on weak backfield units. Dont think its really worth getting an Archon back there to buff them, especially once you jump thru all the restrictions of the RSR.

I do think it's a shame Archons can't natively buff Blades for Hire (especially Mandrakes and Scourges, as they don't even have a special character to buff them instead).

Not that it would necessarily make for a strong strategy (for the reasons you suggest), but it could be fun for a themed army. It's also just a nice bonus if your Archon happens to be in the right place at the right time (I remember a game back in 8th when my Scourges had dropped near my Archon, and I was thinking "Okay, I'll just move my Archon to give them his aura and . . . oh. Right.")

Anyway, having to take a RSR just to allow the Archon to buff Scourges makes it very awkward for minimal benefit (not a fan of the RSR for the same reason as Burnage), and even if you do jump through that hoop the Archon's aura still won't affect Mandrakes. Sad

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 19 2021, 00:30

Hmm, when I look at it from the other side, an Archon with a Mandrake buff could be, well, difficult.
I talk about the battlefield role of the Aelindrachii. They could pop up almost anywhere on the table.
It would be easy to expose the Archon just for the chance of getting the Mandrakes buffed.
Double edged sword is the phrase, I think...

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 19 2021, 07:42

@Zenotaph wrote:
Trueborn are upgraded Kabalites. You hardly have more than 1-2 Units in a 2000pts match.
And they have a completely different role in the game. Put 10 Trueborn and 10 Wracks each on a different objective.
Who do you think lasts longer? I know, where I would put my money on. Wink

Usually Trueborn. Just keep some of them on Light Cover and use Hunt From the Shadows: 2+ save here we go.


Wracks are great, but I think they don't fill the role in the classic full embarked Drukhari playstyle.
They're great on blobs, but you don't play blobs in a full embarked list.
They're great on screening, but you don't need so many screen when you play 5+ Raiders, and both Raiders and Mandrakes fulfill the same role.

BUT they are what makes viable different playstyles for us.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 20 2021, 00:12

@Zenotaph wrote:
Hmm, when I look at it from the other side, an Archon with a Mandrake buff could be, well, difficult.
I talk about the battlefield role of the Aelindrachii. They could pop up almost anywhere on the table.
It would be easy to expose the Archon just for the chance of getting the Mandrakes buffed.
Double edged sword is the phrase, I think...

Sorry, I'm a little confused as to what you mean here. Any chance you could elaborate a little more?

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 20 2021, 00:49

I meant, when I deepstrike Mandrakes, it could be easy to make the mistake of exposing the Archon in order to buff them.
But that is just theoretical, so never mind that.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 20 2021, 11:08

@Zenotaph wrote:
I meant, when I deepstrike Mandrakes, it could be easy to make the mistake of exposing the Archon in order to buff them.
But that is just theoretical, so never mind that.

Ah, I see.

To be honest, though, I don't think it would be much of a loss even if that did happen. As it stands, Archons are largely irrelevant to the overall function of our army (it's not like losing a Farseer or even a Company Commander).

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 20 2021, 13:54

@Cerve wrote:
They're great on screening, but you don't need so many screen when you play 5+ Raiders, and both Raiders and Mandrakes fulfill the same role.

This point confuses me. I can't think of a single purpose both Raiders and mandrakes share other than potentially zoning out deep strikes.
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 20 2021, 14:50

Maybe keeping something or -one occupied for a turn until you resettle. Other than that, nothing comes to my mind either...

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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 20 2021, 21:23

@sekac wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
They're great on screening, but you don't need so many screen when you play 5+ Raiders, and both Raiders and Mandrakes fulfill the same role.

This point confuses me. I can't think of a single purpose both Raiders and mandrakes share other than potentially zoning out deep strikes.


It's pretty obvious to me.

Raider basically is a flying wall long 7"ish. A wall that can screen you from any charge. If you have 5+ Raiders, you can use few of them (the ones with less valuable carry -or even an empty one-) as screening units.

Mandrakes are 5x 25mm bases that explore. Which can be used to screening too.


I don't get where's the difficult.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 20 2021, 22:47

That implies, Mandrakes are just that. Screening units. Or do I miss something?

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PostSubject: Re: Buffing Blades for hire   Buffing Blades for hire I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 21 2021, 04:10

@Cerve wrote:
@sekac wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
They're great on screening, but you don't need so many screen when you play 5+ Raiders, and both Raiders and Mandrakes fulfill the same role.

This point confuses me. I can't think of a single purpose both Raiders and mandrakes share other than potentially zoning out deep strikes.


It's pretty obvious to me.

Raider basically is a flying wall long 7"ish. A wall that can screen you from any charge. If you have 5+ Raiders, you can use few of them (the ones with less valuable carry -or even an empty one-) as screening units.

Mandrakes are 5x 25mm bases that explore. Which can be used to screening too.


I don't get where's the difficult.

The difficulty is that they do not have the same role on the table. One is a transport that flies and has an anti-tank gun. The other is infantry that infiltrates, disappears into the shadows and has multiple shots that cause mortal wounds.

They both can screen, in the same way that the vast majority of the units in our codex can screen.


But even then, they're not similar. Mandrakes can screen against infiltrate and scout moves, Raiders cannot. Raiders can protect valuable squads from being shot and mandrakes cannot. Mandrakes' ability to screen diminishes as they take wounds, Raiders are the same size until they lose all 10.


I regularly screen with wracks, warriors, wyches, Raiders, mandrakes, scourges, court of the archon, hellions, and reavers. Do they ALL have the same role? No, but they all take up space and are cheap enough that they can be traded if it gains an advantage. That's not the same thing.
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