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 Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?

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sweetbacon
Burnage
sekac
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CptMetal
Dracon
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PostSubject: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 07 2021, 08:47

Hey, I am currently looking forward to my first 9th game with my Drukhari and I just cannot decide which obsession I should use.

On Kabal terms I think about PT to get the sweet 3+ wound roll with metallotoxins but the custom merciless torturers and razorkin-thingy are better against the blood angels I am going to face off.

And in terms of cult, I have no idea whatsoever.
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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 07 2021, 11:18

Black Heart - reroll to hit per unit is great (especially since Dark Lances are amazing currently) and the bonuses to mercs are icing on the cake.

Cult of Strife - if you're just looking at the Codex then I don't think there's a huge amount between the three main Cults (and my personal preference would be for Red Grief), but add in the supplement and Strife is a clear winner. They're massively flexible and bring an extremely powerful selection of warlord traits, relics and stratagems into consideration.

Artists of Flesh - I like the added durability and -1 to damage synergises very strongly in my experience with the new 5+++ that Covens get.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 07 2021, 13:18

Fluffplayer here! I play Poisoned Tongue, because Lady Aurelia Malys is just cool.
The Obsession is nice and you can outfit one sturdy Archon, that sometimes can dish out good damage.

My coven of choice is Dark Creed, because its perfectly alien. And it has a nice synergy with PT.
Of course, it wont work against Marines, because they know no fear...

Cult of Strife is definetly the best and most used, but I dont play Leliths bitches.
I prefer Cult of the Cursed Blade. +1S, dealing MW in defence and the fluff is great too.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 07 2021, 13:19

If I wanted to use my Venom collection, I'd probably go Poison Tongue. Partially for the 3+ to wound but also because it contains my favourite relic (even if said relic is still absolute pigswill).

Otherwise, I'd pick Obsidian Rose. I know people seem to adore Black Heart but to me a reroll to wound seems vastly preferable to a reroll to hit. After all, you want to reroll the least reliable dice and we're hitting things on 3s (2s for Trueborn) but liable to be wounding on 3s or 4s.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 07 2021, 20:58

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
If I wanted to use my Venom collection, I'd probably go Poison Tongue. Partially for the 3+ to wound but also because it contains my favourite relic (even if said relic is still absolute pigswill).

Otherwise, I'd pick Obsidian Rose. I know people seem to adore Black Heart but to me a reroll to wound seems vastly preferable to a reroll to hit. After all, you want to reroll the least reliable dice and we're hitting things on 3s (2s for Trueborn) but liable to be wounding on 3s or 4s.

That's quite a good point.

Edit: the relic armour seems pretty decent though
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 07 2021, 23:59

@CptMetal wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
If I wanted to use my Venom collection, I'd probably go Poison Tongue. Partially for the 3+ to wound but also because it contains my favourite relic (even if said relic is still absolute pigswill).

Otherwise, I'd pick Obsidian Rose. I know people seem to adore Black Heart but to me a reroll to wound seems vastly preferable to a reroll to hit. After all, you want to reroll the least reliable dice and we're hitting things on 3s (2s for Trueborn) but liable to be wounding on 3s or 4s.

That's quite a good point.

Edit: the relic armour seems pretty decent though

Ehh, I thought the relic armour was okay in 8th, when it improved a 5+ save to a 3+ save (and there was no alternative outside of FS).

However, with the current rules I'd always take the Soulhelm instead. Each to their own, obviously, but IMO a 4+/5+++ with a -1 to hit is much better than a 3+ with a -1 to hit only in melee.

I guess if you were taking multiple Archons for whatever reason you could give one the Soulhelm and the other the Armour (personally I'd go for Soulhelm and Djin Blade but that's just me). Anyway, if you did go the defensive route, you would also have the OR Warlord Trait to give one of them a S4 Huskblade (with the other presumably getting Consummate Weaponmaster).

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 08 2021, 00:20

I would also prefer the Soulheim over the Armor of Misery. The 5+++ is just too good.
And there is too much AP these days, so 3+ is mostly not the armor save its used to be.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 08 2021, 16:05

Not sure I'd really rate any of the defensive relics for an Archon over the Djin Blade, to be honest. The best defense Drukhari have in 9th edition is an overwhelming offense.

As for Black Heart vs Obsidian Rose: I'd agree that in a vacuum the wound re-roll is more useful in the vast majority of cases, but almost everything else BH gets edges it for me. +1 to Power from Pain and Leadership is generally more useful than +6" range, the Warlord trait and relic are more useful, the strat is more useful. Not enough to make it the obviously better choice but enough to sway it for me personally.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 08 2021, 16:56

Well, but a PT Agonizer with consumate weaponsmaster WL-trait goes very nice with the Soulheim.

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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 09 2021, 04:34

Currently:

Black Heart: RSR benefits, good to house the transports and the strat is great.

Cult of Strife: So much more and better stuff to choose from.

Coven of Twelve: makes Wracks punchy, strat and relic are fun.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 09 2021, 12:48

Ive played around with the Black Heart/Obsidian Rose kabals, and I ended up with the OR. Mainly that extra 6" on the Trueborn and Dark Lances put me over the edge. So many things have a 36" range, and being able to kite at 42" (and 24" blasters and 30" rapid fire splinters for Trueborn) has extended the lives of my units by A Lot. I have found the re-rolls between BH/OR to be basically the same thing.

I love my PoF wrack carpet. 3x10 with an ECW on the Acothyst has won me my last few games. So durable for their cost, and able to actually HOLD an objective with ObSec troops. I played around with custom Covens (Splinterblades, Master Torturers, Hungry for Flesh, Experimental Creations, Obsessive Collectors), and I find that the PoF durability has a greater impact than more offensive (the best combination IMHO was Splinterblades+Master Torturers).

I tried Cursed Blade and CoS Cults, and CoS is just hands down the bestest best ever. No point in looking elsewhere.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 10 2021, 00:44

Luckily, our book is well balanced (read: "good") enough to not have any must-have obsessions other than Cuot of Strife. I do think there are situations where CoS is not an auto-take but those are pretty rare. If you're only including a RSR detachment with minimal cult units, CoS is not auto-take since you have no access to the strats or relics, and having a single always strike first unit is not very helpful (the opponent will just swing on your 1 ASF unit before it swings). However, if you're doing multiple patrols one should be Strife. Even if you're taking an RSR and you're taking a lot of cult units, you should consider bringing in a 2nd patrol just to get access to the Strife stuff.


When it comes to covens, opinions seem to vary the most (and this thread shows it as well). I'm a Dark Technomancer advocate because they represent the best shooting DE have access to, even after their nerf. Wracks are cheap enough and useful enough on their own that having essentially no obsession for them isn't too bad, but Disintegrators, Chronos guns, and Reapers absolutely sing when paired with DT. Killing scary things without emptying any Raiders is very good, and not something we can easily do otherwise.


With Kabals, I think the right choice depends entirely on the makeup of the kabal/blades for hire portion of the list. If you're going RSR, it probably should be Black Heart, and it should probably have a lot of blades for hire. If you're doing a Raiding Force, then I'd look at your units and decide after because some units fit better in some kabals than others. I'd rank them like this:


Court of the Archon
1) Black Heart (best by a lot)
3) Poison Tongue
4) Obsidian Rose 


MSU warriors
1) Poison Tongue
2) Obsidian Rose
3) Black Heart


Trueborn
1) Poison Tongue
2) Obsidian Rose
3) Black Heart


Ravager
1) Obsidian Rose
2) Black Heart
3) Poison Tongue


Venom
1) Poison Tongue
2) Black Heart
3) Obsidian Rose


Raider
1) Black Heart
2) Obsidian Rose
3) Poison Tongue

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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 10 2021, 12:14

@sekac, thats a very well thought out list.

What is your reasoning behind Trueborn #1 being PT instead of OR? I personally LOVE that extra 6" range on the blasters and splinter. 18" is just too short IMHO for them to really pop. The splinter fire has always felt a little "meh" to me (but I have not yet tried out PT, so I could be missing something big)

Also, whats the reason for the Raider order? I honestly am not sure about that one, but my gut tells me that BH is only really good when you are in the RSR (I am open to having my mind changed on this one)
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 10 2021, 14:03

@fisheyes wrote:
@sekac, thats a very well thought out list.

What is your reasoning behind Trueborn #1 being PT instead of OR? I personally LOVE that extra 6" range on the blasters and splinter. 18" is just too short IMHO for them to really pop. The splinter fire has always felt a little "meh" to me (but I have not yet tried out PT, so I could be missing something big)

Also, whats the reason for the Raider order? I honestly am not sure about that one, but my gut tells me that BH is only really good when you are in the RSR (I am open to having my mind changed on this one)

I think Obsidian Rose and Poison Tongue trueborn are very close but I just slightly give the edge to PT. OR is better with the darklight weapons but it sometimes feels as if trueborn are just an expensive darklight delivery system. With PT, the poison rifles start to amount to something useful--especially with Splinter wracks and as a great spot for Potent Metalotoxin.


With Raiders, it's pretty simple. PT does nothing, so they're last definitely. I value the re-roll wound slightly more than re-roll hit, but they're close. So the question is, what's more valuable +6" range or the ability to adv+charge on turn 1? The adv+charge has actually won me games by causing a traffic jam on turn 1 and throwing my opponent’s whole plan in disarray. 6" extra range simply can't do that. 


All that said, you get diminishing returns on that ability, because it's probably not a good idea to adv+charge multiple Raiders in on turn 1. Typically I include just a single BH raider with a lance. The rest are Dark Technomancers with disintegrators. 
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 10 2021, 14:55

Have you tried Coven Raiders other than DT?

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 10 2021, 16:45

@Zenotaph wrote:
Have you tried Coven Raiders other than DT?


I tried Dark Creed a couple times for the Ld bomb but didn't care for it. Not to say there's no play there, but it wasn't for me. I just like the shooting power of DT Reapers and DT dissie Raiders.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 10 2021, 17:04

@sekac wrote:

Trueborn
1) Poison Tongue
2) Obsidian Rose
3) Black Heart

I would have to disagree with this. Trueborn are taken for BS2+ Blasters and Dark Lance.

14 BS2+ Poison shots, even with the PT bonus, is pathetic. Those shots kill a grand total of 1 Marine.

OR, meanwhile, gives you 24" Blasters and a vital to-wound reroll for a Dark Lance or Blaster shot.


@sekac wrote:

MSU warriors
1) Poison Tongue
2) Obsidian Rose
3) Black Heart

I find this puzzling for the same reason. Poison 3+ on 8-10 AP0 D1 shots just isn't significant. A single unit in rapid-fire range puts just 1 wound on a Marine.

Again, I would far rather have OR for the 24" Blaster shot with a reroll to wound (or even a 24" Shredder with a reroll to wound).

Maybe it's just personal preference but I would far rather focus on buffing their single, functional weapon than on trying to pretend that poison weapons aren't just a joke.


@sekac wrote:
With Raiders, it's pretty simple. PT does nothing, so they're last definitely.

A further point - I think this is a key factor with regard to choice. In the first example, for instance, you won't be taking that Trueborn squad without a transport. But if you use Poison Tongue, then you either need a second Kabal detachment or else their transport probably isn't gaining any significant benefit. Meanwhile, an OR (or BH) detachment will buff both the Trueborn and their Raider.

By the same measure, I can understand someone favouring PT for MSU Warriors purely because it's better for the Venom (though, IMO, 9th was the death-knell for MSU Warrior-Venom spam).

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 10 2021, 17:41

and what about the custom made obsessions? other than DT or Artist or flesh, are their any fan favorite?

For me i really love

Kabal: Merciless Razorkin + Torturous Efficiency (also Dark Mirth i'd love to try it one day.....someone
did?)
Cult = Precise Killers + Test of Skill

Coven = Experimental Creation + (Master Torturer or Hungry for Flesh or Splinterblades)
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 10 2021, 20:03

Cult of Strife - I have 30
Cursed Blade - 10
Red Grief - 10
7th Woe - 10

Kabal of the Flayed Skull - Pretty Complete- 2x Raider, 1x Ravager, 1x Reaper, 1x Tantalus
Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue - In progress
Kabal of the Obsidian Rose - In Progress ( A Tantalus in the paint scheme would be awesome)

No Coven Built at the Moment
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 10 2021, 21:06

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@sekac wrote:

Trueborn
1) Poison Tongue
2) Obsidian Rose
3) Black Heart

I would have to disagree with this. Trueborn are taken for BS2+ Blasters and Dark Lance.

14 BS2+ Poison shots, even with the PT bonus, is pathetic. Those shots kill a grand total of 1 Marine.

OR, meanwhile, gives you 24" Blasters and a vital to-wound reroll for a Dark Lance or Blaster shot.

The question is what is the intent with the squad? If you ONLY care about killing vehicles with Trueborn, OR might be the best choice. However, PT trueborn with Metalotoxins is just mathematically superior to OR at dealing wounds. Obviously it is inefficient if you need to be shooting at vehicles turn after turn, but when you need a vehicle dead in a turn, PT are your best bet.


And once the vehicles that matter are dead, OR just doesn't have much to offer. PT has the versatility to be the best tank hunters in a pinch, and better against everything else on a turn by turn basis.




@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@sekac wrote:

MSU warriors
1) Poison Tongue
2) Obsidian Rose
3) Black Heart

I find this puzzling for the same reason. Poison 3+ on 8-10 AP0 D1 shots just isn't significant. A single unit in rapid-fire range puts just 1 wound on a Marine.

Again, I would far rather have OR for the 24" Blaster shot with a reroll to wound (or even a 24" Shredder with a reroll to wound).

Maybe it's just personal preference but I would far rather focus on buffing their single, functional weapon than on trying to pretend that poison weapons aren't just a joke.

I should clarify there. If only running a single warrior squad as tax, I'd agree, I prefer OR. However, if running MSU, I'd rather lean into the volume fire. Regardless, I don't personally rate blasters very highly. I use Reapers for my anti-tank so blasters are more or less just incidental shooting in my lists.


@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@sekac wrote:
With Raiders, it's pretty simple. PT does nothing, so they're last definitely.

A further point - I think this is a key factor with regard to choice. In the first example, for instance, you won't be taking that Trueborn squad without a transport. But if you use Poison Tongue, then you either need a second Kabal detachment or else their transport probably isn't gaining any significant benefit. Meanwhile, an OR (or BH) detachment will buff both the Trueborn and their Raider.

By the same measure, I can understand someone favouring PT for MSU Warriors purely because it's better for the Venom (though, IMO, 9th was the death-knell for MSU Warrior-Venom spam).

That is a good point. Raiders aren't necessarily going to point you at which kabal to take because the Raiders can also choose to be of the Cult or Coven subfaction as well. The one reason to make a Raider PT is if it is carrying units who would benefit greatly from the redeploy PT strat.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 10 2021, 23:44

PT is only really useful for the strat.  Poison shooting, even with PT is bad against most of the meta .  I’ve played around with nine PT Venoms and I can say with confidence that I’d rather have nine BH or OR Raiders against any opponent.  People seem to be evenly split between the two.  If you’re running a lot of Raiders I prefer BH as the hit reroll can help if you’re bracketed.  If running a lot of Blasters in MSU Warriors, OR is better for the extra range and wound reroll.  

As for Coven, Artist of Flesh for Talos and Grotesques.  PoF for lots of Wracks.  Coven of Twelve is also fun for Wracks.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 11 2021, 13:43

@sweetbacon wrote:
PT is only really useful for the strat.  Poison shooting, even with PT is bad against most of the meta .  I’ve played around with nine PT Venoms and I can say with confidence that I’d rather have nine BH or OR Raiders against any opponent.  People seem to be evenly split between the two.  If you’re running a lot of Raiders I prefer BH as the hit reroll can help if you’re bracketed.  If running a lot of Blasters in MSU Warriors, OR is better for the extra range and wound reroll.  

As for Coven, Artist of Flesh for Talos and Grotesques.  PoF for lots of Wracks.  Coven of Twelve is also fun for Wracks.

This guy gets it.

PT is mainly used for the re-deploy strat. Throw some Trueborn in PT Raiders and redeploy them around to mess with the opponents deployment.

Suddenly those vehicles hiding behind the ruin are in perfect range of a half dozen Lances. I hate it when this happens to me, and I am sure Im not the only one XD

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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 11 2021, 15:31

The PT Archon isnt so bad either. Really!!

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PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 11 2021, 17:20

@sekac wrote:

The question is what is the intent with the squad? If you ONLY care about killing vehicles with Trueborn, OR might be the best choice. However, PT trueborn with Metalotoxins is just mathematically superior to OR at dealing wounds. Obviously it is inefficient if you need to be shooting at vehicles turn after turn, but when you need a vehicle dead in a turn, PT are your best bet.

Would you be willing to show me the math on that?

I ask because it seems that you would run into the exact same problem against vehicles that you do against Marines - your poison weapons are all AP0 D1. It hardly seems like the most efficient use of Potent Metallotoxins, let alone when it requires a significant sacrifice in terms of Kabal choice (and CP).

Just in terms of their poison weapons, 7 PT rifles in FR range (I'm assuming you're using the special and Heavy weapons on the squad) put ~2.59 wounds on a vehicle with a 3+ save. Meanwhile, an OR unit puts 1.94 wounds on the same vehicle but then also gets a reroll to wound with either their D3+3 damage Dark Lance (to which I'd give priority) or one of their D6 damage Blasters.

(Incidentally, an OR Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons puts 2.17 wounds on a vehicle, and unless you go all-in on poison, a PT Venom is probably a better target for Potent Metallotoxins than the PT Trueborn.)

For me that .65 of a wound just isn't worth it - especially since you're reliant on a 2CP strat to do this at all.

I suppose you get better results if you also take a Splinter Cannon on the squad, but in that case it's probably a matter of perspectives. For me, if I'm not bringing a Trueborn unit that's making good use of its special weapons (and, in particular, its ability to move and fire a BS2+ Dark Lance without penalty), then I probably wouldn't even bother with a Kabal detachment at all. Given that I can already spam Splinter Cannons on Venoms if I really want to (and I'm not convinced they're a weapon I'd want to spam in the first place Wink ), I don't want to be taking them on my valuable, one-per-Kabal Trueborn squad.


@sekac wrote:

And once the vehicles that matter are dead, OR just doesn't have much to offer. PT has the versatility to be the best tank hunters in a pinch, and better against everything else on a turn by turn basis.

As above, "best tank hunters" seems pretty dubious. And even if the enemy's tanks are dead, their guns are still terrible against infantry.

If I was really that worried about what my Trueborn will do if the enemy have no tanks, monsters, heavy-infantry, bikes, or really anything else beyond Ork Boys, I'd take a Dark Lance and 2 Shredders on my OR unit, rather than the Dark Lance and 2 Blasters.


@sekac wrote:
I should clarify there. If only running a single warrior squad as tax, I'd agree, I prefer OR. However, if running MSU, I'd rather lean into the volume fire. Regardless, I don't personally rate blasters very highly. I use Reapers for my anti-tank so blasters are more or less just incidental shooting in my lists.

I do agree with you about Blasters. But even if I was taking Shredders instead, I'd still want OR because trying to buff Splinter Rifles just feels like throwing good points after bad.


@sekac wrote:
That is a good point. Raiders aren't necessarily going to point you at which kabal to take because the Raiders can also choose to be of the Cult or Coven subfaction as well. The one reason to make a Raider PT is if it is carrying units who would benefit greatly from the redeploy PT strat.

The trouble with Cult and Coven is that they tend to provide very few benefits for transports. A lot of their stuff is melee-focussed and much of Coven only works on non-vehicles. By and large, it seems like your choices boil down to a DT Raider with a Disintegrator or else a Dark Creed Raider for the aura.

You're right about the PT strat, though I'm perhaps biased as I played loads of games as PT in 8th and never wound up using it once.

Don't get me wrong, it's a nice option to have up your sleeve, but in my experience I could usually just rectify my deployment simply by moving my stuff on the first turn as required, without the need for spending CP.


Aside: I can't help but notice that we've seen advocates for Black Skull, Obsidian Rose and Poison Tongue . . . but none yet for Flayed Skull. I think we may have found the runt of the litter. Razz

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Kalmah
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Kalmah


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Join date : 2020-08-21
Location : Montréal

Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 11 2021, 18:23

the major problem with FLayed Skull is that the unit that receive the bonus is the model inside the transport, not the transport itself...........it would have been so much better if it was written: models INSIDE a FS transport ignore cover. Suddenly it would have made this obsession one of the best (if not THE best) obsession for our transports (without forgetting the sweet +2M).
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Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?   Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why? I_icon_minitime

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