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 2 Cult + Kabal

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fisheyes
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Soulless Samurai
Incubi
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PostSubject: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 11 2021, 20:00

Just doing a bit of theorycrafting while I wait for Covid restrictions to ease. Trying to settle on a list for my Mandrake-themed army.

Obsidian Rose Patrol
Master Archon w/ Djin Blade, Blast Pistol, Hatred Eternal, Warlord
10 Truebown w/ 2x Blaster, Dark Lance
5 Warriors w/ Blaster
5 Incubi
5 Mandrakes
5 Scourges w/ 4x Heat Lance
5 Scourges w/ 4x Shredder
Raider w/ Dark Lance
Raider w/ Dark Lance
Raider w/ Dark Lance
Venom w/ Splinter Cannon + Twin Splinter Rifle
Venom w/ Splinter Cannon + Twin Splinter Rifle
Venom w/ Splinter Cannon + Twin Splinter Rifle
Venom w/ Splinter Cannon + Twin Splinter Rifle

Cult of Strife Patrol
Master Succubus w/ Archite Glaive, Splinter Pistol, Hypex (+2M), Parasite's Kiss, Unparalleled Agility
Succubus w/ Archite Glaive, Agoniser, Adrenalight (+1A), Triptych Whip, Precision Blows
10 Wyches w/ Blast Pistol, Grave Lotus (+1S)
5 Wyches w/ Blast Pistol, Grave Lotus (+1S)
5 Mandrakes

Cult of the Cursed Blade Patrol
Succubus w/ Shardnet & Impailer, Grave Lotus (+1S),
10 Wyches w/ Blast Pistol, Grave Lotus (+1S)
5 Wyches w/ Blast Pistol, Grave Lotus (+1S)
9 Reavers w/ 3x Heat Lance, Splintermind (+1BS, +1Ld)

2000pts (8CPs)

- The Trueborn and the two 10-man Wych units each take a Raider.
- The 5-man Wych units and the Warriors take Venoms.
- The Archon goes with the Incubi in the last Venom.
- The Succubi will go with the Wyches - Kiss Succubus will go with the small Strife unit, Triptych Succubus will go with the 10-man unit, Shardnet Succubus can go with either of the Cursed Blade units.
- Scourges go into Reserves.
- Mandrakes will go where needed, most likely teleporting to complete secondaries.
(Other stuff is probably pretty obvious)

If you're wondering, I've tried to go for fluffy builds on the HQs (hence the loadout on the Master Succubus, which I imagine will have baffled many of you Razz ). In case it matters, I'm willing to be flexible with Warlord Traits but I'd like to at least keep the current artefacts on the respective HQs.

I usually play Kabal-heavy but for a change I'd like to use a more Wych-centric list (I know it looks like there's a lot of stuff in the Kabal detachment but mainly it's just to balance out the transports - since Raiders and Venoms don't really get anything from being Strife or Cursed Blade).

I'd actually like to have another 5-man Wych unit instead of the Warrior unit but I ran out of space for dedicated transports in the Kabal detachment.  Razz

Also, I'm wondering whether Strife is worth it. I'm only using one Master Succubus (and then only really for flavour as I don't think Bloodbrides are worth it) and only one Strife trait. Do you think the Strife Stratagems are worth it or should I just go full Cursed Blade and get S5 Wyches across the board?

Any thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 14 2021, 12:22

I think you should swap out the Venoms for two Raiders and one Venom. Or just ditch the Venom and altogether as I think Obsidian Rose doesn’t do much for Venoms. Get two more Raiders for 190 and then you have 110 points to play with. Maybe more Incubi/Wyches/Mandrakes. Unless you’re running a Poison Tongue Venom spam list, I’ve found them very underwhelming for their points.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 14 2021, 15:43

sweetbacon wrote:
I think you should swap out the Venoms for two Raiders and one Venom.  Or just ditch the Venom and altogether as I think Obsidian Rose doesn’t do much for Venoms.  Get two more Raiders for 190 and then you have 110 points to play with.  Maybe more Incubi/Wyches/Mandrakes.  Unless you’re running a Poison Tongue Venom spam list, I’ve found them very underwhelming for their points.  

Ah, that's good to know. I do want to give PT Venoms a go sometime but obviously not with this list.

Regrettably, I only own 3 Raiders at the moment so I'll have to see if I can acquire some more. Amusingly, a while back I worked on a way to convert a Raider into a Ravager. It seems now I'll have to find a method to convert Ravagers into Raiders. Razz

Anyway, cheers for the advice. Smile

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 14 2021, 17:22

i was in the same situation as you regarding the Raiders. I only had 3, thinking that would be ok.....
An easy way to have access to them is to buy the Combat Patrol and use the Ravager to do a Raider.
So for almost the same price than 2 Raiders, you gain 10 Kabalites, 1 Archon and 5 Incubis.
If you don't need them at all than 2x separate Raiders are best, but if you were missing some stuffs, the Combat Patrol is the way to go!

Really love the list! did you give it a try in Realspace Raid with Blackheart just so that your Mandrakes can charge and advance 1st turn? Also the +1HR starting 2nd turn is really fine!
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 14 2021, 19:02

For sure you need to go CoS! I use the Ignore Overwatch almost every game, and the Walk Thru Units strat every other game. Dont get to use the Fight Twice strat, but the enemy needs to spend a fair amount of brain power to play around it. I dont think S5 is worth giving up those first two strats, never mind everything else.

If you are going double Cult, you may want to include some more heavy hitters. There are not many lances in your list (I do see the blast pistols, but they dont really do the same thing), so heavy infantry/armor may be an issue. Incubi would be a good compromise, being able to punch both.

A little surprised you are not taking Drazhar (Master of Blades), or Morvanes Agonizer. Both are pretty fun and useful.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 14 2021, 20:09

Kalmah wrote:
i was in the same situation as you regarding the Raiders. I only had 3, thinking that would be ok.....
An easy way to have access to them is to buy the Combat Patrol and use the Ravager to do a Raider.
So for almost the same price than 2 Raiders, you gain 10 Kabalites, 1 Archon and 5 Incubis.
If you don't need them at all than 2x separate Raiders are best, but if you were missing some stuffs, the Combat Patrol is the way to go!

Ah, that's an excellent idea. Yeah, I'll try and get hold of one of those boxes. Wouldn't mind having the Incubi either.


Kalmah wrote:
Really love the list! did you give it a try in Realspace Raid with Blackheart just so that your Mandrakes can charge and advance 1st turn? Also the +1HR starting 2nd turn is really fine!

The issue with RSR is that (at least for this list) I didn't really want any coven stuff, plus it would lock me into taking just one Succubus. Also, a more minor gripe but it's slightly irritating that it would have to be Black Heart, so I wouldn't be able to take the Soul Seeker (which seems the most Mandrake-y weapon) Evil or Very Mad .

That said, I'll probably give it a go anyway and see what I can come up with. But I expect it will end up being quite different, rather than just a slight tweak of this list. Regardless, I'll post it here if you like and you can see which one you like best. xD


fisheyes wrote:
For sure you need to go CoS! I use the Ignore Overwatch almost every game, and the Walk Thru Units strat every other game. Dont get to use the Fight Twice strat, but the enemy needs to spend a fair amount of brain power to play around it. I dont think S5 is worth giving up those first two strats, never mind everything else.

Ah, that's very interesting.

In that case, would you suggest I run both of my Cult detachments as Strife? (If nothing else, it would make it easier to remember what's what Wink ).


fisheyes wrote:

If you are going double Cult, you may want to include some more heavy hitters. There are not many lances in your list (I do see the blast pistols, but they dont really do the same thing), so heavy infantry/armor may be an issue. Incubi would be a good compromise, being able to punch both.

Ah, I had wondered whether I had enough anti-armour or not. I think I initially had 2 units of Incubi but swapped one out because I wanted more Wyches. Hopefully I'll have some spare points once I've swapped out the Venoms for Raiders so I'll see about putting an Incubi squad back in. I'll also try and get Heat Lances on the second Scourge squad.


fisheyes wrote:

A little surprised you are not taking Drazhar (Master of Blades), or Morvanes Agonizer. Both are pretty fun and useful.

Drazhar is an absolute beast to be sure but I'm not too fond of special characters. Also, none of my current characters have the right aesthetic for him. I'm always messing around with character conversions, though, so I'll keep him in mind if I make a more armoured character model.

I was considering using Morvane's Agoniser on a Hekatrix, in lieu of a Shardnet. If I do, do you think it would be better in a 5-man or 10-man unit?


Thanks for all the input, guys. It's really appreciated. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 14 2021, 21:30

i don't think that would be reasonable to redo your entire list just for a little bit of fluff for the Mandrakes Wink i don't think that will be worth it, i higly suggest you to keep it that way (2x cult 1x kabal), especially knowing you don't want to play Covens. I respect far more peoples that do what they want, not what they must in this game!

Knowing you play with 2x Cult, is there some room for Hellions? Wink (lol just asking because they are amongst my favorite models in the Cult subfaction, especially in a Cursed Blade detachment, and they're really good in CoS too)
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 15 2021, 00:07

Kalmah wrote:
i don't think that would be reasonable to redo your entire list just for a little bit of fluff for the Mandrakes Wink i don't think that will be worth it, i higly suggest you to keep it that way (2x cult 1x kabal), especially knowing you don't want to play Covens. I respect far more peoples that do what they want, not what they must in this game!

Okay, that's nice to know. Perhaps I'll compensate by saying my Wyches are a form of Mandrake.  Wink

Tbh, I've often struggled to find a balance between fielding stuff that's fluffy (or that I just like), fielding stuff that's effective, and also trying new stuff out.

In any case, I still appreciated the suggestion (and I like messing around with different lists so making an RSR one wouldn't be much bother). It's just that there's something about the current Coven rules that I find uninspiring. Not even sure what it is exactly (I used them quite often in 8th). I might try a Poison Tongue + Dark Creed list at some point with lots of Grizzly Trophies and PGLs but I fear that's where my present interest in Covens begins and ends.  Razz


Kalmah wrote:

Knowing you play with 2x Cult, is there some room for Hellions? Wink (lol just asking because they are amongst my favorite models in the Cult subfaction, especially in a Cursed Blade detachment, and they're really good in CoS too)

Oh, that's a very good point. I'm now regretting having cannibalised many of my Hellions for conversions over the years ("Hellions? What are the odds I'll ever want to field these?" Embarassed ).

Still, I'll see if I can scavenge enough for a unit or two. It might be an opportunity to make use of some conversions I started working on a while back:
Spoiler:
 

(It was intended as a Harlequin Skyweaver but with the changes to PfP I'm not running Harlequins anymore.)

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 15 2021, 14:33

ho yeah i remember those conversion you showed us a while back (did not remember it was you Wink)
They're absolutely gorgeous! (and i love the Thousand Son / Tzeentch as they are my second / third army i'm building..........so can't wait for the Thousand Sons Codex to comes out after the recent preview of their Codex, so i really love the Screamer Wink)

Yeah that's one problem (well.....not a problem but you get the picture): one edition (or part of edition) this unit is unplayable and the next one, it becomes the best!

Lol and i see that you are a little bit like me: i LOVE to do lists lol, even more than actually play them (at least in my head everything works perfectly lol). i'll try to post some here Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 15 2021, 15:07

Kalmah wrote:
ho yeah i remember those conversion you showed us a while back (did not remember it was you Wink)
They're absolutely gorgeous! (and i love the Thousand Son / Tzeentch as they are my second / third army i'm building..........so can't wait for the Thousand Sons Codex to comes out after the recent preview of their Codex, so i really love the Screamer Wink)

Thank you. Smile

Thousand Sons certainly look like a pretty fun army (they're one of the many armies I'd like to play if I had the time and resources). I hope you get a good codex with them.


Kalmah wrote:

Yeah that's one problem (well.....not a problem but you get the picture): one edition (or part of edition) this unit is unplayable and the next one, it becomes the best!

Well, it's usually good when a formerly bad unit gets good. I just regret having used so many of my Hellions building useless crap like this:

Spoiler:
 

(The well-known Dark Eldar Heavy Weapon Platform.)


Kalmah wrote:

Lol and i see that you are a little bit like me: i LOVE to do lists lol, even more than actually play them (at least in my head everything works perfectly lol). i'll try to post some here Smile

Heh. Yeah, even before the lockdowns I'd make far more lists than I'd ever get to play. I seem to be weirdly addicted to fiddling around, trying to decide on the 'best' combination and configuration for the units I want to use.

And yeah, I'd be quite interested to see some of your lists if you fancy posting them here. Twisted Evil

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 15 2021, 17:04

lololol i LOVE your Heavy Weapon Platform! That so funny! lol
Makes no senses at all, and that's what i like about it lol.
I really don't know what inspired you this design, but you we're clearly thinking outside the box Wink

A Coven obsession that i like is the custom made: reroll charge and +1S that can transform your backline defenders in real aggressors, especially good on our overcosted Grotesque and Talos can start swinging some serious damage in melee while making your Chronos' ability to heal in melee a little bit more reliable.

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 16 2021, 01:38

Kalmah wrote:
lololol i LOVE your Heavy Weapon Platform! That so funny! lol
Makes no senses at all, and that's what i like about it lol.
I really don't know what inspired you this design, but you we're clearly thinking outside the box Wink

Thanks. To be perfectly honest, I can't even remember what on earth I made it for. I think it must have just been one of those random ideas that pop into my head from time to time.   geek  


Kalmah wrote:

A Coven obsession that i like is the custom made: reroll charge and +1S that can transform your backline defenders in real aggressors, especially good on our overcosted Grotesque and Talos can start swinging some serious damage in melee while making your Chronos' ability to heal in melee a little bit more reliable.

Hmm, that's interesting. Aside from maybe Wracks, I hadn't generally thought of Coven as being backline units. Though I think if I was going for custom traits I'd want to give Obsessive Collectors a go. I'm doubtful it would be effective but I quite like the idea.



Also, my revised list:

Obsidian Rose Patrol
Master Archon w/ Djin Blade, Blast Pistol, Hatred Eternal, Warlord
10 Truebown w/ 2x Blaster, Dark Lance
5 Incubi
5 Mandrakes
5 Scourges w/ 4x Heat Lance
5 Scourges w/ 4x Heat Lance
Raider w/ Dark Lance
Raider w/ Dark Lance
Raider w/ Dark Lance
Raider w/ Dark Lance
Venom w/ Splinter Cannon + Twin Splinter Rifle
Venom w/ Splinter Cannon + Twin Splinter Rifle

Cult of Strife Patrol
Master Succubus w/ Archite Glaive, Splinter Pistol, Hypex (+2M), Parasite's Kiss, Unparalleled Agility
10 Wyches w/ Agoniser, Blast Pistol, Morvaine's Agoniser Grave Lotus (+1S)
5 Wyches w/ Blast Pistol, Grave Lotus (+1S)
5 Mandrakes
5 Hellions

Cult of Strife Patrol
Succubus w/ Archite Glaive, Agoniser, Adrenalight (+1A), Triptych Whip, Competitive Edge
10 Wyches w/ Blast Pistol, Grave Lotus (+1S)
5 Wyches w/ Blast Pistol, Grave Lotus (+1S)
5 Wyches w/ Blast Pistol, Grave Lotus (+1S)
9 Reavers w/ Power Sword, 3x Heat Lance, Splintermind (+1BS, +1Ld)

2000pts (7CPs)

- Both Cult detachments are now Strife.
- Removed the Shardnet & Impailer Succubus (I liked her in Cursed Blade but I think she loses some teeth when only S4).
- Changed the second Scourge squad to Heat Lances.
- Added 5 Hellions.
- Swapped out the 5 Kabalites for 5 Wyches and gave Morvaine's Agoniser to one of the Wych units.
- Swapped out 2 Venoms for 1 Raider.

As it stands, I've still got 2 Venoms in the list. I know they're not as good as Raiders but I'm also a little leery of putting too many eggs in one basket. It seems better, for example, to put my Archon and his Incubi in a Venom on their own. Same goes for my blender-Succubus and her unit. That way, if my opponent concentrates fire on them, he only takes down those units. If I have them in Raiders, he'd potentially get to kill (or strand) them, their units and also another unit along with them.

Though I suppose if I replaced the last two Venoms with a single Raider it would give me enough points to replace a Wych squad with some Incubi. Okay, I think I'm starting to see why Venoms aren't catching on.  Razz

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 16 2021, 13:54

I personally would go double CoS, just as you have done.

Morvanes Agonizer is best used on a larger squad (that is likely to survive getting punched back, so it can hold the enemy in combat).

I personally go 50/50 with wyches/incubi (15 of each), but my META is highly competitive and filled with Death Guard who laugh at D2 weapons (they do not like it when you are doing D3 on 6's). With DT Liquifiers gone, Incubi+Drazhar basically fill the same role in my army. Less durable because you need to get out of your boat, but generally just as damaging when they hit well.

But you need to find a list that works well for your playstyle, so take all my advice with a grain of salt. I play with 30 PoF wracks who clog up the board, so my playstyle is slightly out of the netlist ideal
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 16 2021, 21:04

I like your idea of swapping out the Venoms and a Wych squad for a Raider and more Incubi. I’ve found that I can never have enough anti-tank and anti-elite infantry in my lists. That would give you six dark lances and multiple different kinds of melee threats as Incubi and Hellions are good at punching things you may not want your Wyches going into.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 17 2021, 01:24

sweetbacon wrote:
I like your idea of swapping out the Venoms and a Wych squad for a Raider and more Incubi.  I’ve found that I can never have enough anti-tank and anti-elite infantry in my lists.  That would give you six dark lances and multiple different kinds of melee threats as Incubi and Hellions are good at punching things you may not want your Wyches going into.  

Yeah, I'd also have about 30pts spare to spend on extra upgrades (probably Wych weaoons).

I know I was probably being a bit thick but it hadn't really clicked with me just how bad Venoms actually are now, compared to Raiders. It's a shame as I love the models but they seem too expensive, relative to Raiders.


fisheyes wrote:
I personally would go double CoS, just as you have done.

Morvanes Agonizer is best used on a larger squad (that is likely to survive getting punched back, so it can hold the enemy in combat).

Ah, that's good to know. I had been debating whether to put that Agoniser in a small or large squad.


fisheyes wrote:

I personally go 50/50 with wyches/incubi (15 of each), but my META is highly competitive and filled with Death Guard who laugh at D2 weapons (they do not like it when you are doing D3 on 6's). With DT Liquifiers gone, Incubi+Drazhar basically fill the same role in my army. Less durable because you need to get out of your boat, but generally just as damaging when they hit well.

I can see where you're coming from but I just like to have a lot of troops in my armies, if at all possible. Not a strategic thing really (though I do prefer quantity over quality), I just like having lots of troops. I used to use a lot of Kabalites back in 8th but, with the exception of Trueborn, I'm now leaning much more towards Wyches.


fisheyes wrote:

But you need to find a list that works well for your playstyle, so take all my advice with a grain of salt. I play with 30 PoF wracks who clog up the board, so my playstyle is slightly out of the netlist ideal

Heh, yeah that's fair. I'll probably have to do some test games and see what I actually find fun on the table.


Anyway, thanks for all your advice, everyone. You've been a fantastic help. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 17 2021, 17:21

I dont think Venoms are bad, compared to Raiders. They are just different. Harder to hit, easier to hide
And a pain in the butt when used with PT Obsession, double Splintercannons and grizzly trophies.

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 17 2021, 19:46

https://www.thedarkcity.net/t19362-rsr-prophets-of-the-cursed-rose#242492

@Soulless Samurai

here is the link to one of my recent list i've built up, but haven't played with it yet!
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Cult + Kabal   2 Cult + Kabal I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 17 2021, 21:28

Zenotaph wrote:
I dont think Venoms are bad, compared to Raiders. They are just different. Harder to hit, easier to hide
And a pain in the butt when used with PT Obsession, double Splintercannons and grizzly trophies.

No, they are bad in comparison to raiders. There's definably something to be said their smaller profile being much easier to hide, but that's the only thing they have going for them. Splinter cannons just pale in comparison to either raider weapon, I actually really don't like the new profile because sure it's great if you're facing marines, but if you're dealing with the new hordes of ad mech vanguard or battle sisters soon to start turning up in larger numbers, it's just an awful weapon and I'd rather have the old 6 shots. Add on to all that, if you throw a splinter cannon and trophies to a venom it's getting way too close to the cost of a raider, it really needs to be significantly cheaper to make it stand out.

I could see a place for a venom or two in a list, just to have a small profile transport to hide. But that's it.

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