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 New Codizes and what we think about them

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Gelmir
Sarcron
Dalamar
The Strange Dark One
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CptMetal
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Dabbarexe
toldavf
fisheyes
sekac
Soulless Samurai
Kalmah
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CptMetal
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 02 2022, 14:24

Soulless Samurai wrote:
CptMetal wrote:

I think it is not only the portable wraith cannon but their special rules buffing the humble shuriken rifle that is making them good. At least I guess so.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, their rule is actually not too dissimilar from one of the Custom Craftworld traits that gives the same effect to all Shuriken weapons if fired within 12" of their target. So not quite as strong but works on a lot more units, plus it's not all-consuming so they can take a second trait alongside it.


CptMetal wrote:

A friend of mine is very interested in the new Tyranid rules and.. holy cow!
Have you guys seen that new heavy three anti tank weapon?
Why is GW giving out weapons like that like candy?
Tau have a D D6+3 weapon, Tyranids have D6+4 and we have the humble dark Lance...
To be fair, we can take a huge amount of it.

In fact, Tau have a d3+6 plus 3 mortal wounds weapon that ignores invulnerable saves.

Also, the Tyranid weapon you're referencing is S14! Anyone feel we chose the wrong research path? I'm sure darklight is cool and everything but it seems far less effective than just firing chunks of metal really really fast. Razz


Though, all joking aside, I don't actually mind the current Dark Lance profile. I think it's adequate for purpose. What bothers me is the profile of Blasters and Blast Pistols. These are meant to be more portable weapons with the same attack profile as the Dark Lance, yet both are currently inferior in terms of damage. I know we can take quite a few of them (though probably not as many as we used to, given the changes to Trueborn) but that's the whole point - we're meant to take a lot of them to make up for the fact that we don't have any super-weapons like D-Cannons or rail-guns, nor squads of fire-dragons or wraithguard other units that can completely devastate almost any armoured target.

There's also the fact that a lot of units can't take Dark Lances or suffer penalties for using them on the move (which is a bit of a pain for an ostensibly mobile army).

I'm wondering if this was an issue due to our book being released early. I'm sure a lot of people would have been horrified at all our Blasters and such going to d3+3 damage. But, if our book had been released after Eldar, Tau etc., do you think anyone would have even raised an eyebrow?
I totally agree.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

CptMetal wrote:

Anybody got predictions about the bugs?

Well, given that the codex was leaked almost in its entirety a few weeks ago, I can probably make some very accurate predictions as to what it will contain. Very Happy

Though if you mean in terms of the meta or tournament scene, I'm afraid I've no idea.

It was leaked? I had no idea. I have to check a certain Russian website.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 02 2022, 17:36

Getting to actual fixes:

I think that if the voidweavers get a slight point increase AND get reduced to 1 model per unit (as they always have been in the past), that will clear up OP issues with the harlequin and aeldari lists (all of which seem to rely on spamming voidweavers, at least to some degree).

Custodes just need point increases.

T'au, I'm not entirely sure of. I'm guessing point increases for certain units. I think a nerf to indirect fire in the core rules of the game is in order. Probably an unmodifiable -1 to hit vs. units not in LOS. Maybe also a minimum 24" range to use indirect fire. Back in the olden days, indirect fire was tempered by greater scatter, and often, a minimum range, so similar measures need to be put in place to balance it out. Outer Enclaves might need a little more restriction on army selection, like limiting or removing the use of Ethereals.

Tyranids might be a problem when they come out, but I guess we'll see.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 02 2022, 18:30

Holy moly
Squats are really coming back!
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/02/what-april-fools-the-41st-millenniums-next-faction-is-real-heres-a-model-to-prove-it/
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 03 2022, 06:56

TBF, the rupture cannon isn't firing projectiles, it's an imposion weapon.
For the 'meta-bility' of the new nids we've already had people running test games with them and every diagnosis has been the same- they look scary, but all those monsters need to actually get there first.

As a Tyranid player, thank Vect GW got rid of the swarmlord's slingshot ability it created a problem of always having to balance around it. The point of this being that nids are a lot less mobile than they were before- the monsters have big scary profiles but they need to spend multiple turns just getting close enough.

The general consensus has been nids are very flavourful with multiple options of play, and definitely good, but far from oppressive or close to broken. Also if the points for termagants are true on release that mostly kills any hordes, 210pts for 30 termagants is not worth it imo; the S5 -1 is spooky, but it's still taking 12 termagants to kill 1 one marine w that, and that's almost 100 pts for 12.

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 03 2022, 08:48

Sarcron wrote:
As a Tyranid player, thank Vect GW got rid of the swarmlord's slingshot ability it created a problem of always having to balance around it. The point of this being that nids are a lot less mobile than they were before- the monsters have big scary profiles but they need to spend multiple turns just getting close enough.

What's the slingshot ability?
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 03 2022, 12:34

Sarcron wrote:
TBF, the rupture cannon isn't firing projectiles, it's an imposion weapon.

I was thinking more of the Railgun but I take your point.

Sarcron wrote:

The general consensus has been nids are very flavourful with multiple options of play, and definitely good, but far from oppressive or close to broken.

No idea as to the competitive side but I'll second that the book certainly looks very flavourful. Adaptive Traits is a very interesting mechanic. I also like that you can chain synaptic abilities via Synapse creatures. Just seems very appropriate. Their psychic powers are very nice, too. Also nice that Warriors and Lictors are good for the first time in ages (and Tyranid Primes can finally take Venom Cannons! cheers ).


CptMetal wrote:
Sarcron wrote:
As a Tyranid player, thank Vect GW got rid of the swarmlord's slingshot ability it created a problem of always having to balance around it. The point of this being that nids are a lot less mobile than they were before- the monsters have big scary profiles but they need to spend multiple turns just getting close enough.

What's the slingshot ability?

Swarmlord used to be able to give a unit an extra move/advance instead of shooting.

So a unit of Genestealers could Advance 8+1d6" and then the Swarmlord could let them Advance another 8+1d6", after which they could still charge 2d6".

On average, they could reach a target 30" away.

Of course, this is just with standard movement and advance distances. I have a feeling the old tyranid book also had several other movement shenanigans from stratagems and such. Pretty sure there was a way to get a Genestealer unit about 60" in one turn if you really wanted to. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 04 2022, 02:02

Absolutely! I'm loving the chaining of synapse and making a network where your opponent wants to take out the links in it- and how multiple rules interact with and use it- really getting me excited for nids again.

And nah, you took hive fleet kraken for 3d6 pick the highest on advance rolls and that was about it. There was a strat for a double move in move phase but you couldn't charge the same turn you used it

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 04 2022, 12:45

A friend of mine played with the leaked Nids Codex this Weekend.
He was quite pleased, but also said: Winged Gun-Tyrant and Hiveguard felt more like a 400pts handycap.
But 2 Zoantrophes easily flashed away a unit of Shining Spears.

Well, time will tell, what the tournament nerds will create. No offence meant. I am kind of a nerd myself. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 05 2022, 13:01

Well, the Harlequin Nerf is as good as confirmed...
Here!!!! they say and I quote:
GW wrote:
In fact, Harlequin lists were dominant throughout – but we don’t expect this to last long, as the Warhammer Studio is already hard at work on key balance changes.

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 05 2022, 15:50

Zenotaph wrote:
Well, the Harlequin Nerf is as good as confirmed...
Here!!!! they say and I quote:
GW wrote:
In fact, Harlequin lists were dominant throughout – but we don’t expect this to last long, as the Warhammer Studio is already hard at work on key balance changes.

Hopefully they don't go overboard, as they seem to do a sizeable percentage of the time.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 05 2022, 17:15

I could show you. I got the leaked datasheets. Wink

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New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 Img-2034

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 05 2022, 17:16

as i always say, give them every abilities you want, just make them pay the right points cost!
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 05 2022, 17:27

@zenotaph thanks for the leak!
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 05 2022, 18:09

I presume that there will be accompanying points changes to the balance dataslate? At least, there were points sheets in the previous ones. Custodes definitely need some adjustments.

Also, I think that 18" for blaze of light would have been more reasonable. 24" pretty much means that it will never affect anything but heavy weapons fire. Or maybe keeping it 12" for infantry and having it be 24" for vehicles would have been better, as well.

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 06 2022, 09:18

That leak's almost certainly fake, for what it's worth.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 06 2022, 10:54

Burnage wrote:
That leak's almost certainly fake, for what it's worth.

How do you know that?
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 06 2022, 12:51

Zenotaph wrote:
I could show you. I got the leaked datasheets. Wink
What does losing Core mean for Pain Engines, in practical terms? I'm not going to stop taking them, because they're awesome, but I'd still like to know.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 06 2022, 13:29

Wrack_Enthusiast wrote:
Zenotaph wrote:
I could show you. I got the leaked datasheets. Wink
What does losing Core mean for Pain Engines, in practical terms? I'm not going to stop taking them, because they're awesome, but I'd still like to know.



They can't benefit from any auras, mainly. No +1T from the haemonculus, no re-roll 1s in a Realspace Raiders detachment.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 06 2022, 14:01

CptMetal wrote:
Burnage wrote:
That leak's almost certainly fake, for what it's worth.

How do you know that?

Because there are multiple fake datasheets like this doing the rounds, and the changes listed here are almost identical to ones that were crowd sourced from a Discord channel. They're probably in the right ballpark (we all know Light and Voidweavers are getting hit somehow) but I wouldn't bet money on this being real.

Talos and Cronos already lost CORE in a previous datasheet, FWIW. It hurts them pretty badly in practice.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 06 2022, 14:09

sekac wrote:
They can't benefit from any auras, mainly. No +1T from the haemonculus, no re-roll 1s in a Realspace Raiders detachment.
I see. That doesn't sound too bad for pure Coven armies, at least. It's another reason to keep my haemonculus near my haemoxytes/wracks too, so I'm cool with it.
Still, kind of a weird change, at least from my perspective. Isn't the whole point of the 9th codex to let people who want to use a realspace raid have access to support abilities across the entire army?
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 06 2022, 19:29

Wrack_Enthusiast wrote:
sekac wrote:
They can't benefit from any auras, mainly. No +1T from the haemonculus, no re-roll 1s in a Realspace Raiders detachment.
I see. That doesn't sound too bad for pure Coven armies, at least. It's another reason to keep my haemonculus near my haemoxytes/wracks too, so I'm cool with it.
Still, kind of a weird change, at least from my perspective. Isn't the whole point of the 9th codex to let people who want to use a realspace raid have access to support abilities across the entire army?

Well, as I've mentioned before, I think that the removal of Core from Pain Engines was an over-correction on GWs part. The change to Artists of Flesh was a sufficient nerf to all of the winning 'Thicc City' lists at the time, I think. A reversion to the original Talos point cost would have been fine as well.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 06 2022, 19:50

krayd wrote:
Wrack_Enthusiast wrote:
sekac wrote:
They can't benefit from any auras, mainly. No +1T from the haemonculus, no re-roll 1s in a Realspace Raiders detachment.
I see. That doesn't sound too bad for pure Coven armies, at least. It's another reason to keep my haemonculus near my haemoxytes/wracks too, so I'm cool with it.
Still, kind of a weird change, at least from my perspective. Isn't the whole point of the 9th codex to let people who want to use a realspace raid have access to support abilities across the entire army?

Well, as I've mentioned before, I think that the removal of Core from Pain Engines was an over-correction on GWs part. The change to Artists of Flesh was a sufficient nerf to all of the winning 'Thicc City' lists at the time, I think. A reversion to the original Talos point cost would have been fine as well.

Neither change was necessary. Siegler won a GT after GW thought they killed Drukhari off so they utterly lost their minds and nerfed it again. If Siegler hadn't won that GT, this nerf would not have happened.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 06 2022, 23:24

sekac wrote:
krayd wrote:
Wrack_Enthusiast wrote:
sekac wrote:
They can't benefit from any auras, mainly. No +1T from the haemonculus, no re-roll 1s in a Realspace Raiders detachment.
I see. That doesn't sound too bad for pure Coven armies, at least. It's another reason to keep my haemonculus near my haemoxytes/wracks too, so I'm cool with it.
Still, kind of a weird change, at least from my perspective. Isn't the whole point of the 9th codex to let people who want to use a realspace raid have access to support abilities across the entire army?

Well, as I've mentioned before, I think that the removal of Core from Pain Engines was an over-correction on GWs part. The change to Artists of Flesh was a sufficient nerf to all of the winning 'Thicc City' lists at the time, I think. A reversion to the original Talos point cost would have been fine as well.

Neither change was necessary. Siegler won a GT after GW thought they killed Drukhari off so they utterly lost their minds and nerfed it again. If Siegler hadn't won that GT, this nerf would not have happened.

Was that the perfectly normal and sensible list with about a hundred Wracks?

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 06 2022, 23:32

Soulless Samurai wrote:
sekac wrote:
krayd wrote:
Wrack_Enthusiast wrote:
sekac wrote:
They can't benefit from any auras, mainly. No +1T from the haemonculus, no re-roll 1s in a Realspace Raiders detachment.
I see. That doesn't sound too bad for pure Coven armies, at least. It's another reason to keep my haemonculus near my haemoxytes/wracks too, so I'm cool with it.
Still, kind of a weird change, at least from my perspective. Isn't the whole point of the 9th codex to let people who want to use a realspace raid have access to support abilities across the entire army?

Well, as I've mentioned before, I think that the removal of Core from Pain Engines was an over-correction on GWs part. The change to Artists of Flesh was a sufficient nerf to all of the winning 'Thicc City' lists at the time, I think. A reversion to the original Talos point cost would have been fine as well.

Neither change was necessary. Siegler won a GT after GW thought they killed Drukhari off so they utterly lost their minds and nerfed it again. If Siegler hadn't won that GT, this nerf would not have happened.

Was that the perfectly normal and sensible list with about a hundred Wracks?

No, Thicc City is general Coven spam - at the time a combination of Artists Talos and Grotesques alongside DT Cronos. I disagree that it didn't need to be nerfed, even after the change we're one of the stronger factions in the game.

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 13 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 07 2022, 00:51

Burnage wrote:
Soulless Samurai wrote:
sekac wrote:
krayd wrote:
Wrack_Enthusiast wrote:
sekac wrote:
They can't benefit from any auras, mainly. No +1T from the haemonculus, no re-roll 1s in a Realspace Raiders detachment.
I see. That doesn't sound too bad for pure Coven armies, at least. It's another reason to keep my haemonculus near my haemoxytes/wracks too, so I'm cool with it.
Still, kind of a weird change, at least from my perspective. Isn't the whole point of the 9th codex to let people who want to use a realspace raid have access to support abilities across the entire army?

Well, as I've mentioned before, I think that the removal of Core from Pain Engines was an over-correction on GWs part. The change to Artists of Flesh was a sufficient nerf to all of the winning 'Thicc City' lists at the time, I think. A reversion to the original Talos point cost would have been fine as well.

Neither change was necessary. Siegler won a GT after GW thought they killed Drukhari off so they utterly lost their minds and nerfed it again. If Siegler hadn't won that GT, this nerf would not have happened.

Was that the perfectly normal and sensible list with about a hundred Wracks?

No, Thicc City is general Coven spam - at the time a combination of Artists Talos and Grotesques alongside DT Cronos. I disagree that it didn't need to be nerfed, even after the change we're one of the stronger factions in the game.

The change to single sub-faction was enough to take that specific list down and was already planned. No longer mixing the incredible resilience of AotF Talos with the damage output (and support) of DT cronos goes a long way to curbing that list's power.


It's certainly possible that wouldn't have been enough, but we'll never know. They crammed an 11-and-a-halfth hour nerf literally after they were selling 2022 mission pack at LVO. That way they could ensure they had absolutely no usable data on the new meta to help guide their choices.


It was one of the fastest turnarounds on a nerf we've ever seen. 9 weeks after the best 40k player on the planet won a GT with a specific list (also the only GT it ever won), it was nuked. It was one of 3 GTs in a row he won. Sure he won the first 2 with Ad Mech, and then switched BACK  to Ad Mech because he knew it was better than Thicc City in the meta. And he was right, because while 2 Thicc City variants made it into the top 8 at LVO, that's as far as they went. That was pre-"Custodes are probably too expensive" and pre-Tau and Harlequins.


If you ignore all of that context, Thicc City kind of looks like a problem. But if it were out in the current meta? It would be competitive but not outstanding amongst competitive armies. Literally nobody would be fretting about it.


This is the inherent problem with their rules writing/release/re-balance schedule. They are always reacting to old information.

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