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 New Codizes and what we think about them

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Gelmir
Sarcron
Dalamar
The Strange Dark One
Burnage
Count Adhemar
CptMetal
Shadowharte
Dabbarexe
toldavf
fisheyes
sekac
Soulless Samurai
Kalmah
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Marrath
Barking Agatha
Yziel
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sekac
Wych
sekac


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 31 2022, 13:44

CptMetal wrote:
sekac wrote:
CptMetal wrote:
sekac wrote:
CptMetal wrote:
But are they competitive for a game with friends?

I couldn't care less about 'I need to abuse the game'- tournaments.

[...]
First of all, you weren't asking a question, so don't pretend you were. Were you honestly expecting me to tell you if it's okay to play this book with your friends? No. It was a rhetorical question intended to demean. If you're gonna insult people, at least have the spine to stand behind it, rather than pretend you're just asking honest questions. Nobody is stupid enough to believe you.

Do you really think lashing out at people who type things you don't want to read will create that positive atmosphere?

Ah. That's the source for the misunderstanding.
I was really asking that question. And I mean it.
Are Drukhari competitive and good for a competitive but friendly beer and Bretzel game with friends?

My Chaos Marines are so much garbage, it is no use taking them even against friends.

Now, no need to go nuclear because I asked a question, geez.

Oh wow. In that case, I'd re-read your first post and consider why it looked EXACTLY like the thing you were doing was asking a rhetorical question and tossing out insults.


Surely, you wouldn't deny that "I don't care about 'I need to abuse the game' tournaments" is anything other than a shot at the entire competitive community right? Accusing every single person of being the sort that is trying to "abuse" something (i.e. play a perfectly legal list against other people who are playing perfectly real lists). 


You can understand then, that since I'm a member of the community you were insulting, that I might take that insult as an insult, right?


And given that the second sentence of your post was intended as an insult that I might confuse what reads exactly as a sarcastic question. But yes, in a friendly setting where balance doesn't really have any meaning, they are peffectly balanced. So to, are you Chaos Marines. I know, I play friendly games with my chaos. You may use either book (or any other) against your friends.


At any rate, in the future, if you want to ask an honest question, I would avoid turning the other half of that post into an insult targeting an entire section of the community including the person you're asking a question of. It's not a great way to start a conversation, as you can see.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 31 2022, 14:16

sekac wrote:
Well, the new Goonhammer article on this weekend's results has posted and....well...it's bad. It's really bad.


If you want to have a win percentage north of 50% you need to be playing one of 3 books: Aeldari (by far the best of the best), Custodes, or Tau. Crusher Stampede is now the only A-tier army in the game, and only Ad-Mech and GSC are sitting right at the coveted 50% rate. Every other codex (yes, even Drukhari) is under 50% because you're nearly guaranteed to lose to the big 3. 

I mean, this is exactly what I'd expect to happen when the mentality is 'Don't worry - we'll fix the [current issues] in the next codex we write.'


To be honest, I'm not hugely bothered by this, save for rolling my eyes at Talos losing Core and a Succubus being 80pts for a melee character with a glorified Power Sword.

I just wish there was a little more to our codex in the way of options and tricks.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 31 2022, 14:38

sekac wrote:
CptMetal wrote:
sekac wrote:
CptMetal wrote:
sekac wrote:
CptMetal wrote:
But are they competitive for a game with friends?

I couldn't care less about 'I need to abuse the game'- tournaments.

[...]
First of all, you weren't asking a question, so don't pretend you were. Were you honestly expecting me to tell you if it's okay to play this book with your friends? No. It was a rhetorical question intended to demean. If you're gonna insult people, at least have the spine to stand behind it, rather than pretend you're just asking honest questions. Nobody is stupid enough to believe you.

Do you really think lashing out at people who type things you don't want to read will create that positive atmosphere?

Ah. That's the source for the misunderstanding.
I was really asking that question. And I mean it.
Are Drukhari competitive and good for a competitive but friendly beer and Bretzel game with friends?

My Chaos Marines are so much garbage, it is no use taking them even against friends.

Now, no need to go nuclear because I asked a question, geez.

Oh wow. In that case, I'd re-read your first post and consider why it looked EXACTLY like the thing you were doing was asking a rhetorical question and tossing out insults.


Surely, you wouldn't deny that "I don't care about 'I need to abuse the game' tournaments" is anything other than a shot at the entire competitive community right? Accusing every single person of being the sort that is trying to "abuse" something (i.e. play a perfectly legal list against other people who are playing perfectly real lists). 


You can understand then, that since I'm a member of the community you were insulting, that I might take that insult as an insult, right?


And given that the second sentence of your post was intended as an insult that I might confuse what reads exactly as a sarcastic question. But yes, in a friendly setting where balance doesn't really have any meaning, they are peffectly balanced. So to, are you Chaos Marines. I know, I play friendly games with my chaos. You may use either book (or any other) against your friends.


At any rate, in the future, if you want to ask an honest question, I would avoid turning the other half of that post into an insult targeting an entire section of the community including the person you're asking a question of. It's not a great way to start a conversation, as you can see.

WTF?

Stop your patronizing bs and get back to topic instead of exploding like a spoiled 5yo because you don't like the way I asked a question.

Is there a way to put certain forum members on an ignore list?

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Shadowharte
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 31 2022, 15:54

sekac wrote:
Well, the new Goonhammer article on this weekend's results has posted and....well...it's bad. It's really bad.


If you want to have a win percentage north of 50% you need to be playing one of 3 books: Aeldari (by far the best of the best), Custodes, or Tau. Crusher Stampede is now the only A-tier army in the game, and only Ad-Mech and GSC are sitting right at the coveted 50% rate. Every other codex (yes, even Drukhari) is under 50% because you're nearly guaranteed to lose to the big 3. 


That definitely settles the "Drukhari are still competitive" debate. They are competitive against many armies, but Drukhari are strictly not an option if you want to perform well tournament. Drukhari are now one of the many, many "show up and have fun" armies.

I guess the 3 rounds of nerfs in 4 months with no chance to see if the 1st one had any impact before sending the 3rd one to the printers wasn't a great idea after all. Weird.

Isn't the Aeldari book being top dog only because of the harlequins, from what I've seen CWE perform well, but not tau/custodes well, Light harlequins on the other hand roll everything they come across from what I've seen so far. I am saddened by our drop in win rate. Makes it disheartening before even writing your list if you have to hop you are against similarly poorly performing armies to have a decent chance
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 00:29

CptMetal wrote:
Is there a way to put certain forum members on an ignore list?

You can seemingly add people to your 'Foes' list but I have no idea if that actually does anything.

If not, at least they'll know where you stand. Wink

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sekac
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sekac


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 00:34

Soulless Samurai wrote:
CptMetal wrote:
Is there a way to put certain forum members on an ignore list?

You can seemingly add people to your 'Foes' list but I have no idea if that actually does anything.

If not, at least they'll know where you stand. Wink

Yep, that'll take care of it!


Better for both of us this way. I won't have a reason to expect another unprovoked personal attack like the way this interaction began, and he won't be tempted into attacking me for daring to attend a tournament.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 00:51

Shadowharte. wrote:

Isn't the Aeldari book being top dog only because of the harlequins, from what I've seen CWE perform well, but not tau/custodes well, Light harlequins on the other hand roll everything they come across from what I've seen so far. I am saddened by our drop in win rate. Makes it disheartening before even writing your list if you have to hop you are against similarly poorly performing armies to have a decent chance


Totally. Craftworlders have some power combos but everything is overpriced so it's difficult to perform consistently against the armies that have more built-in synergy and are also more cost efficient.


But due to the wording on Traveling Players, you ignore them when determining army faction. So you can literally take an autarch and 5 rangers, dump everything else into a Light harlie patrol, and call it an Asuryani army. It's silly, but if someone is competing for a lesser (but still very respectable) award for best in faction, it's kind of a sly way to do it. 


Before I saw this weekend's results, I was considering about 500 points of PoF wracks and the rest harlies and a webway for my "Drukhari" army. But I'm not touching harlies with a 10 foot pole until they're fixed.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 06:21

I would be delighted if you could explain where  was insulting you. I am not here to create enemies, despite me playing Drukhari. New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 1f608
CptMetal wrote:

But are they competitive for a game with friends?

I couldn't care less about 'I need to abuse the game'- tournaments.
Because I do not see any insult to you here. I assume we are all adults so we can talk in a civilized manner about opinions without getting offended. Again, if you could explain to me, where I was insulting you, we can most likely work that out. Thanks.

sekac wrote:

But due to the wording on Traveling Players, you ignore them when determining army faction. So you can literally take an autarch and 5 rangers, dump everything else into a Light harlie patrol, and call it an Asuryani army. It's silly, but if someone is competing for a lesser (but still very respectable) award for best in faction, it's kind of a sly way to do it.

Still depends on the game size I think, because can one succeed in jamming like 1300 points into a patrol and still have an army that can compete at the top tables?
The clowns have a means to be really thematically integrated and I like it, even if it possible to go overboard with it in friendly games that isn´t a problem I guess.

Hm...I have a question: Why not play Harlies directly? I´m confused, is it just about having the label "Craftworld" in the statistic?[/quote]
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 07:59

CptMetal wrote:
I would be delighted if you could explain where  was insulting you. I am not here to create enemies, despite me playing Drukhari. New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 1f608
CptMetal wrote:
I couldn't care less about 'I need to abuse the game'- tournaments.

You don't see how accusing every single competive player of being an abuser could be perceived as an insult?


If I called you an abuser, would you take that as a compliment? 
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 08:22

Keep it on topic and civil please guys - Count Adhemar

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 10:13

sekac wrote:
You don't see how accusing every single competive player of being an abuser could be perceived as an insult?


If I called you an abuser, would you take that as a compliment? 

Good that I did not do this.

Back to topic:
What is it, in your opinion, about the clowns that you consider then so strong you don't want to touch them?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 13:03

Arguments are being made that 9th edition Harlequins might be the most broken faction competitive 40k has ever seen - Voidweaver spam in the Light Saedath just flat out doesn't have any bad match-ups despite releasing into a meta that already featured two or three absurdly strong factions. Fully expecting an emergency nerf to them.

Turns out combining "can only be hit on 4+ with no rerolls" with a 4++ and free rerolls to your saves leads to a truly obnoxious level of durability. That's before getting into how dirt cheap they are and how their offense is anti-GEQ, anti-MEQ and anti-tank.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 13:37

I will make a prediction that, having sold shedloads of Voidweavers since the codex was released, the unit size of Voidweavers will be reduced to 1 in a FAQ/Errata in the next few weeks.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 13:44

CptMetal wrote:
sekac wrote:
You don't see how accusing every single competive player of being an abuser could be perceived as an insult?


If I called you an abuser, would you take that as a compliment? 

Good that I did not do this.
 
Again, you and I would have no issue whatsoever if you didn't begin with that sentence that I perceive as an insult. You've offered no alternate explanation to what that sentence meant and I can't fathom an alternate meaning that isn't an insult.


The only thing you have said is you didn't insult me. You don't get to decide that. But you could de-escalate it if you put even a tiny amount of effort into it.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 14:47

Burnage wrote:
Arguments are being made that 9th edition Harlequins might be the most broken faction competitive 40k has ever seen - Voidweaver spam in the Light Saedath just flat out doesn't have any bad match-ups despite releasing into a meta that already featured two or three absurdly strong factions. Fully expecting an emergency nerf to them.

Turns out combining "can only be hit on 4+ with no rerolls" with a 4++ and free rerolls to your saves leads to a truly obnoxious level of durability. That's before getting into how dirt cheap they are and how their offense is anti-GEQ, anti-MEQ and anti-tank.

Once again we see here the truely believable claim that all codex were balanced at the same time ... honestly probably the best way for GW to do this is write and release all codecies at once then watch the meta unfold and change stuff then instead one piece at a time and knee-jerk nerfing stuff that is actually balanced or weak against the next codex before it was nerfed

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 15:22

for marketing purpose, they CAN release them one at a time over the years, BUT, they truly need to be already written at the same time and playtested over months or even years!
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 16:14

Burnage wrote:
Arguments are being made that 9th edition Harlequins might be the most broken faction competitive 40k has ever seen - Voidweaver spam in the Light Saedath just flat out doesn't have any bad match-ups despite releasing into a meta that already featured two or three absurdly strong factions. Fully expecting an emergency nerf to them.

Turns out combining "can only be hit on 4+ with no rerolls" with a 4++ and free rerolls to your saves leads to a truly obnoxious level of durability. That's before getting into how dirt cheap they are and how their offense is anti-GEQ, anti-MEQ and anti-tank.

Regarding Harlequins, I can't help but compare the Starweaver to the Venom:

Both are M16" BS3+ S5 T5 W6 Sv4+ with a transport capacity of 6.

The Venom has a 5++ against shooting and a -1 to hit against shooting. The Starweaver has a straight 4++, gets -1 to hit against all attacks and attacks against it can't be rerolled. Oh, and the Starweaver automatically Advances +6".

When it comes to offence, the Venom can put out 6 S- AP-1 D2 Poison 4+ shots. Meanwhile, the Starweaver puts out 6 S6 AP-1 D2 shots. In other words, the Starweaver has the same number of shots and a very similar profile . . . except that it's superior against almost every target.

But Venoms are meant to be cheap and largely expendable, right? So obviously it will have the advantage when it comes to cost.

Well, a Venom with that loadout will set you back 85pts. Meanwhile, the vastly superior Starweaver costs a whopping 80pts.

Neutral

(And yes, I think I've made this comparison before but it's not like it's become any less relevant. If anything, the current similarities in transport capacities, defensive profiles and weapons make it easier than ever to appreciate the massive discrepancies between these units.)


I could also compare 2 Skyweavers with Haywire to 5 Scourges with Haywire.

The Scourges have a total of 5 wounds with S3 T3 and a 4+/5++ save.

The Skyweavers have a total of 6 wounds with S3 T4 and a 4+/4++ save. Also, hit rolls against them can't be rerolled, attackers have -1 to hit them in melee.

The Scourges average 8 Haywire shots while the Skyweavers only get 6. However, the Skyweavers can move and fire their weapons with no penalties, whilst the Scourges are BS4+ if you moved or deep struck them. So if the Scourges moved at all then they'll average the exact same number of hits.

What's more, the Skyweavers also bring 8 melee attacks with WS3+ S5 AP-2 D2 melee weapons, as well as the ability to both Advance and charge as well dive out of combat and still shoot/charge without penalty.

Lastly, unlike Scourges, Skyweavers get the full benefits of their subfaction.

The Skyweavers cost 110pts - just 10pts more than the Scourges.


Now, I like Harlequins and I have no objections to them getting cool stuff. What I find frustrating is when their stuff not only outclasses any comparable units we have but doesn't even appear to pay any significant price for their bonuses (in the comparison above, the Starweaver is actually cheaper than the Venom in spite of being objectively superior from every angle).

I'll freely admit, too, to being envious of some of their other rules. Pivotal Roles, for example, really help flesh out what would otherwise be a very thin selection of characters. Similarly their core rules, like Rising Crescendo, really help to solidify their themes. Ignoring terrain, advancing and charging, being able to jump out of combat without penalty make them feel like they're dancing around the battlefield.

Compare that to our own 'your melee weapons get an extra point of AP if you roll a 6 to wound'.

I don't know, quite apart from any discussion of power, it just seems like very different levels of effort and flavour to me. tongue

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 17:36

i think you'Re making a fair comparison, especially for the Venom vs Starweaver.
Recently, everything is clearly undescosted (looking at you T'au).
I don't mind new codex giving incredible never seen before abilities, but for god sakes, make them pay the proper points cost!
Firewarrior squad being the same point cost than our humble Kabalites? seriously?
I get it the superior technology and perfect gun line, but come on!
Now, if the Tyrannids Leaks are to be true, they'll receive the same treatment and pay 8pts per models with FAR superior firepower and abilities than what we have.

Now that every guns that come out is literally S5 AP-1, i could'nt care less about our "fabulous" ability to wound every non-vehicle on 4+ knowing that EVERYTHING now do that except they can wound vehicles (T8) on 5+ with a little bit of AP.

ok we will wound big monster on 4+, but they have saves of 2+........so who cares?

I know this game is not to kill everything on sight and we are still good at board control, but playing hide and seek have never been my intention when i started playing this game.

I still think that our Cult and Coven subfactions are still in the game, but the Kabal is almost laughable IMHO
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 01 2022, 19:44

Kalmah wrote:

[...]
I still think that our Cult and Coven subfactions are still in the game, but the Kabal is almost laughable IMHO

Haven't they always been superfluous?

I like them most but they have not been good for a long time.
That's why I'm testing to switch Kabalites with Corsairs.

Soulless Samurai wrote:
Burnage wrote:
Arguments are being made that 9th edition Harlequins might be the most broken faction competitive 40k has ever seen - Voidweaver spam in the Light Saedath just flat out doesn't have any bad match-ups despite releasing into a meta that already featured two or three absurdly strong factions. Fully expecting an emergency nerf to them.

Turns out combining "can only be hit on 4+ with no rerolls" with a 4++ and free rerolls to your saves leads to a truly obnoxious level of durability. That's before getting into how dirt cheap they are and how their offense is anti-GEQ, anti-MEQ and anti-tank.

Well, a Venom with that loadout will set you back 85pts. Meanwhile, the vastly superior Starweaver costs a whopping 80pts.
[...]
The Skyweavers cost 110pts - just 10pts more than the Scourges.


[...]

They are even cheaper than us?? They will definitely get emergency point increases after they sold a mountain of chequered models!

You think they will nerf Corsairs, too?
I don't want to convert my stuff just to get shot in the knee...

Archon_91 wrote:
Once again we see here the truely believable claim that all codex were balanced at the same time ... honestly probably the best way for GW to do this is write and release all codecies at once then watch the meta unfold and change stuff then instead one piece at a time and knee-jerk nerfing stuff that is actually balanced or weak against the next codex before it was nerfed

True, but then they would miss out on money. And we cannot allow that! /sarcasm

I think the should even release the rules for free, without fluff.
They could still sell the books.

sekac wrote:
CptMetal wrote:
sekac wrote:
You don't see how accusing every single competive player of being an abuser could be perceived as an insult?


If I called you an abuser, would you take that as a compliment? 

Good that I did not do this.
 
Again, you and I would have no issue whatsoever if you didn't begin with that sentence that I perceive as an insult. You've offered no alternate explanation to what that sentence meant and I can't fathom an alternate meaning that isn't an insult.


The only thing you have said is you didn't insult me. You don't get to decide that. But you could de-escalate it if you put even a tiny amount of effort into it.

It is not my job to talk that way you don't perceive something as an insult, only to not insult someone directly (like calling you names directly or stuff). I did not insult you, because I neither called you out, nor did I said something wrong.
Not to insult you, I really mean no harm by this, but you're incredible thin skinned for someone accustomed to the internet.

Of course not all tournament players abuse the rules but you do have to do that or play a broken army to play at the top tables.
Like the banning of multiple demon princes because tournament players were abusing the rules to basically build an 'only princes'-army.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 02 2022, 01:00

CptMetal wrote:
It is not my job to talk that way you don't perceive something as an insult, only to not insult someone directly (like calling you names directly or stuff). I did not insult you, because I neither called you out, nor did I said something wrong.
Not to insult you, I really mean no harm by this, but you're incredible thin skinned for someone accustomed to the internet.



Sigh. Again, you haven't hurt my feelings. An insult is an insult regardless of whether or not it does emotional damage. 


Let's reverse roles.


If you were talking about casual play and I came in with "I don't care about the 'I must abuse my inexperienced friends' casual games, so start talking about competitive 40k instead", would you assume I'm engaging in good faith? 


Of course not. While I never directly stated in this hypothetical that you, specifically, want to take advantage of inexperienced players, the implication is quite strong as I'm talking only to one casual payer and making a sweeping generalization about casual players. 


But to be totally clear so as to avoid another rabbit hole, I do not assume that about you. I have met "casual" players with that attitude but I know they're every bit as rare as the actually abusive people at tournaments. Both stereotypes are largely just the boogeyman of players who only really experience one side of the hobby or the other.


You chose to make a generalization about tournament players. You chose to add no nuance that could possibly clue me in that I'm an exception to your otherwise universal insult.


And when I reacted, you chose to escalate it and make it personal with "Do I care that I hurt your feelings? No." 


You could have clarified your point, but it was more important to you to escalate the situation.


You initiated the interaction with me, you initiated the insults, you initiated going personal. 


I don’t know you. I couldn't possibly know your feelings or the un-typed thoughts in your head. That's why I don't presume to know them and tell you what your feelings are. I will only react to what I see you type. If it looks like you're being insulting, I'm going to react to you as if you're the kind of person who likes insulting people. 


It's not your job, but it 100% is your responsibility to attempt to be clear so as not to derail topics with pointless drama. If you refuse to be accountable for the way you come across to people, I guarantee you'll continue to create these situations.


At any rate, I'll leave this alone no matter what. At risk of further agitating the mods, the only reason I've pursued this is I think a resolution is better off for the community, and certainly for this thread. 


I don’t have anything against you, and I have no reason to hold a grudge in the future, I just hope you consider how you come across before hitting send next time. Not because you should worry about hurt feelings, but souring an otherwise productive conversation.


Last edited by sekac on Sat Apr 02 2022, 01:13; edited 1 time in total
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 02 2022, 01:12

Chaps, I enjoy a good argument as much as the next man, but I don't think continuing this one is going to prove especially fruitful either to the discussion at hand or to relations between members here.

Clearly the reasonable and mature way to settle this is with a covert war of assassins, machinations, schemes within schemes and court-politics. Wink

CptMetal wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:
Burnage wrote:
Arguments are being made that 9th edition Harlequins might be the most broken faction competitive 40k has ever seen - Voidweaver spam in the Light Saedath just flat out doesn't have any bad match-ups despite releasing into a meta that already featured two or three absurdly strong factions. Fully expecting an emergency nerf to them.

Turns out combining "can only be hit on 4+ with no rerolls" with a 4++ and free rerolls to your saves leads to a truly obnoxious level of durability. That's before getting into how dirt cheap they are and how their offense is anti-GEQ, anti-MEQ and anti-tank.

Well, a Venom with that loadout will set you back 85pts. Meanwhile, the vastly superior Starweaver costs a whopping 80pts.
[...]
The Skyweavers cost 110pts - just 10pts more than the Scourges.


[...]

They are even cheaper than us?? They will definitely get emergency point increases after they sold a mountain of chequered models!

You think they will nerf Corsairs, too?
I don't want to convert my stuff just to get shot in the knee...

I mean, it's GW so it's hard to say. Though I'd be surprised if Corsairs were hit particularly hard. Their basic weapons seem impressive compared to ours, but they're the exact same models that bog-standard Guardians are using right now. Really, the only noteworthy weapon Corsairs bring is the 1-per-10 Wraithcannon. It's a nice weapon to be sure but I'm doubtful that it makes them overpowered (especially given that they can neither fill out mandatory slots not benefit from faction or subfaction bonuses).

I haven't got a crystal ball, so don't take my word as gospel, but they certainly wouldn't seem high on a list of units in need of a severe nerf.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 02 2022, 06:16

Soulless Samurai wrote:

I mean, it's GW so it's hard to say. Though I'd be surprised if Corsairs were hit particularly hard. Their basic weapons seem impressive compared to ours, but they're the exact same models that bog-standard Guardians are using right now. Really, the only noteworthy weapon Corsairs bring is the 1-per-10 Wraithcannon. It's a nice weapon to be sure but I'm doubtful that it makes them overpowered (especially given that they can neither fill out mandatory slots not benefit from faction or subfaction bonuses).

I haven't got a crystal ball, so don't take my word as gospel, but they certainly wouldn't seem high on a list of units in need of a severe nerf.

I think it is not only the portable wraith cannon but their special rules buffing the humble shuriken rifle that is making them good. At least I guess so.

A friend of mine is very interested in the new Tyranid rules and.. holy cow!
Have you guys seen that new heavy three anti tank weapon?
Why is GW giving out weapons like that like candy?
Tau have a D D6+3 weapon, Tyranids have D6+4 and we have the humble dark Lance...
To be fair, we can take a huge amount of it.

sekac wrote:

You initiated the interaction with me, you initiated the insults, you initiated going personal. 

I did not initiated the contract, I was talking about tournaments in general and you can crap talk casual games as much as you want. It's a free country and I don't feel attacked. Now let's stop this before the others are bothered by one of us posting a wall of text again and again.

I still value your input in terms of the dark kin and their weakling Brothers and sisters.
Anybody got predictions about the bugs?
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 02 2022, 09:40

Well, I fully, completely and absolute agree to what Soulless Samurai said.
Its a bit of a shame, what GW did to us.
Now, the old DT Liquifier spam doesnt look so badly like cheating anymore...

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 02 2022, 12:18

CptMetal wrote:
You think they will nerf Corsairs, too?
I don't want to convert my stuff just to get shot in the knee...

Corsairs aren't in danger of a nerf at all IMO. The worst you might see is +5 points thrown on the Wayseeker if using them as a command point battery becomes commonplace (and it doesn't look like it will yet).

The psyker combined with the auto-wounding makes them interesting to me but they're certainly not worryingly strong.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 02 2022, 12:45

CptMetal wrote:

I think it is not only the portable wraith cannon but their special rules buffing the humble shuriken rifle that is making them good. At least I guess so.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, their rule is actually not too dissimilar from one of the Custom Craftworld traits that gives the same effect to all Shuriken weapons if fired within 12" of their target. So not quite as strong but works on a lot more units, plus it's not all-consuming so they can take a second trait alongside it.


CptMetal wrote:

A friend of mine is very interested in the new Tyranid rules and.. holy cow!
Have you guys seen that new heavy three anti tank weapon?
Why is GW giving out weapons like that like candy?
Tau have a D D6+3 weapon, Tyranids have D6+4 and we have the humble dark Lance...
To be fair, we can take a huge amount of it.

In fact, Tau have a d3+6 plus 3 mortal wounds weapon that ignores invulnerable saves.

Also, the Tyranid weapon you're referencing is S14! Anyone feel we chose the wrong research path? I'm sure darklight is cool and everything but it seems far less effective than just firing chunks of metal really really fast. Razz


Though, all joking aside, I don't actually mind the current Dark Lance profile. I think it's adequate for purpose. What bothers me is the profile of Blasters and Blast Pistols. These are meant to be more portable weapons with the same attack profile as the Dark Lance, yet both are currently inferior in terms of damage. I know we can take quite a few of them (though probably not as many as we used to, given the changes to Trueborn) but that's the whole point - we're meant to take a lot of them to make up for the fact that we don't have any super-weapons like D-Cannons or rail-guns, nor squads of fire-dragons or wraithguard other units that can completely devastate almost any armoured target.

There's also the fact that a lot of units can't take Dark Lances or suffer penalties for using them on the move (which is a bit of a pain for an ostensibly mobile army).

I'm wondering if this was an issue due to our book being released early. I'm sure a lot of people would have been horrified at all our Blasters and such going to d3+3 damage. But, if our book had been released after Eldar, Tau etc., do you think anyone would have even raised an eyebrow?


CptMetal wrote:

Anybody got predictions about the bugs?

Well, given that the codex was leaked almost in its entirety a few weeks ago, I can probably make some very accurate predictions as to what it will contain. Very Happy

Though if you mean in terms of the meta or tournament scene, I'm afraid I've no idea.

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