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 New Codizes and what we think about them

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Zenotaph
Marrath
Sarcron
Barking Agatha
Cerve
The Strange Dark One
Yziel
Some_Call_Me_Tim
krayd
Deckard_2049
toldavf
sweetbacon
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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 15 2021, 09:23

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Kalmah wrote:
in a way, for my part, i'm ok with that IF (and only if) they can do it properly.
If this can lead to something à-la rock-paper-scissor than i'm fine with that because this will lead to something close to a balance.
But to reach this point is a colossal task and sadly, seeing how they are doing their rules, i'm far from being convinced that they'll ever be able to reach that quality level.......



I mean, even if you don't have a myriad of rerolls, you can still get:
Roll shots --> Roll hits --> roll wounds --> roll damage --> roll armour/invulnerable saves --> roll FNP saves

Little OT:

Wait, you roll armour/inv before rolling damage.

End OT.
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Zenotaph
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Zenotaph


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 17 2021, 18:57

News from the front. Additional rules for Tyranids...

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 17 2021, 19:53

SNAP!

Care to post a link?
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Zenotaph
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Zenotaph


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 17 2021, 19:57

Already there. Click 'Front'... Wink

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 17 2021, 21:11

Speaking of bad match ups:

I played a little Crusade game with a Poison Tongue kabal v. Snakebite Beast Snaggas.

You know how the Poison Tongue obsession is that splinter weapons (and agonisers) wound on a 3+?
Well... all snakebites can only be wounded on a 4+, so forget about that.

And you know how the other part of the Poison Tongue obsession is that they take Attrition tests at -1?
Oh, they don't take atrittion tests.

Also, they move 10" and can run and charge when they waagh. On a 44' x 30' table there is no avoiding that charge. And they will chew through whatever you put in their way. They will drop Raiders like they're nothing. Talos? No. Grotesques? No. Kabalites... you can imagine. At 25 Power Level you don't have the units to spare. The game was pretty much over on turn Two.

So I dunno... maybe charge them first? The Succubus did make short work of them before she fell to their boss. They're pretty tough though, and their boss is a beast. The riding squig alone does 3 Mortal Wounds every time it rolls a 6. I'm not saying it's impossible, but with the little band I had of one Raider, one Venom, 10 Kabalites, my Archon and my Succubus, I had no chance.

Ah, but we desperately needed to be nerfed, didn't we? Those Raiders were faaar too efficient, they really needed to go up in points AND power level. They were just too good, weren't they? It's not as if two ordinary boyz on squigs can just charge them and turn them into scrap, is it?

Yeah, I'm still sore about that.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 17 2021, 22:11

@Barking Agatha wrote:
And you know how the other part of the Poison Tongue obsession is that they take Attrition tests at -1?
    Oh, they don't take atrittion tests.

Is this a beast snagga rule? I know orks just never count as below half strength on their attrition tests...
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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 17 2021, 23:15

New tyranid rules preview is really something nice. Tyranids were my first army, and they've been on the shelf for a little while now. The extra synapse focus is really nice and fluffy but also an actually unique mechanic that I really look forward to. Maybe tyranids are finally getting the love they need

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 18 2021, 12:53

@Barking Agatha wrote:
Speaking of bad match ups:

I played a little Crusade game with a Poison Tongue kabal v. Snakebite Beast Snaggas.

You know how the Poison Tongue obsession is that splinter weapons (and agonisers) wound on a 3+?
    Well... all snakebites can only be wounded on a 4+, so forget about that.

And you know how the other part of the Poison Tongue obsession is that they take Attrition tests at -1?
    Oh, they don't take atrittion tests.

Also, they move 10" and can run and charge when they waagh. On a 44' x 30' table there is no avoiding that charge. And they will chew through whatever you put in their way.  They will drop Raiders like they're nothing. Talos? No. Grotesques? No. Kabalites... you can imagine. At 25 Power Level you don't have the units to spare. The game was pretty much over on turn Two.

So I dunno... maybe charge them first? The Succubus did make short work of them before she fell to their boss. They're pretty tough though, and their boss is a beast. The riding squig alone does 3 Mortal Wounds every time it rolls a 6. I'm not saying it's impossible, but with the little band I had of one Raider, one Venom, 10 Kabalites, my Archon and my Succubus, I had no chance.

Ah, but we desperately needed to be nerfed, didn't we? Those Raiders were faaar too efficient, they really needed to go up in points AND power level. They were just too good, weren't they? It's not as if two ordinary boyz on squigs can just charge them and turn them into scrap, is it?

Yeah, I'm still sore about that.

You sure about the attrition test? I thought Orks were pretty weak to moral in general.

What was moving that 10"? I imagine it was the Storm Boys, who are FA and therefore dont get ObSec. They are also not that great at punching our Raiders (the Goffs are real good at it though).

I have only got 1 game into the Orks, and it was my opponents first try at the codex. My strategy (at 2k points) was to sit at the very back of my deployment zone and shoot all the heavy stuff with OR Lances. On Turn 3 he was in middle field, and I charged into his HQ castle and took out most of it (Draz, Succubus, 2x5 Incubi, 10 Wracks). Left the Master Archon, 5 incubi and 5 wyches in transports for the second wave.

In general, I found that shredder scourges, and wyches were the real MVP. Lances are definately required to take out his tanks/riders/bikes/etc. Incubi were also great, and Draz was an Allstar as always.

If I were to design a list at lower point costs, I would probably base it around 2-3 raiders, some wyches and incubi, backed up by Draz and a unit of shredder scourges.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 18 2021, 17:17

@fisheyes wrote:
You sure about the attrition test? I thought Orks were pretty weak to moral in general.

So I was told.

@fisheyes wrote:
What was moving that 10"?

The new ones that ride on squigs.

@fisheyes wrote:
I imagine it was the Storm Boys, who are FA and therefore dont get ObSec. They are also not that great at punching our Raiders (the Goffs are real good at it though).

Each basic ork-on-a-squig gets about 10 attacks when they waagh. With their boss around, those 10 attacks will hit on a 2+. Half of those attacks wound a Raider on 4+, and the other half wound it on a 3+ and do 2 damage. That's not great at punching our Raiders?

@fisheyes wrote:
I have only got 1 game into the Orks, and it was my opponents first try at the codex. My strategy (at 2k points) was to sit at the very back of my deployment zone and shoot all the heavy stuff with OR Lances. On Turn 3 he was in middle field, and I charged into his HQ castle and took out most of it (Draz, Succubus, 2x5 Incubi, 10 Wracks). Left the Master Archon, 5 incubi and 5 wyches in transports for the second wave.

In general, I found that shredder scourges, and wyches were the real MVP. Lances are definately required to take out his tanks/riders/bikes/etc. Incubi were also great, and Draz was an Allstar as always.

If I were to design a list at lower point costs, I would probably base it around 2-3 raiders, some wyches and incubi, backed up by Draz and a unit of shredder scourges.

The board is only 30 inches wide. Yes, I set up as far back as possible, but that is still only 24 inches away from them, and they are NOT slow.

Also, since we got that nerf Raiders are Power Level 6 and Drazhar is Power Level 8. Two Raiders and Drazhar would be 20 PL. Where are you getting the points for all of those Wyches, Scourges, and Incubi?

Bleh. What really bugged me though is that their rules make Poison Tongue completely useless. It just doesn't seem right that there's a whole army that can go, 'Oh, your special rules don't work on me.'

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 18 2021, 17:57

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
You sure about the attrition test? I thought Orks were pretty weak to moral in general.

So I was told.

@fisheyes wrote:
What was moving that 10"?

The new ones that ride on squigs.

@fisheyes wrote:
I imagine it was the Storm Boys, who are FA and therefore dont get ObSec. They are also not that great at punching our Raiders (the Goffs are real good at it though).

Each basic ork-on-a-squig gets about 10 attacks when they waagh. With their boss around, those 10 attacks will hit on a 2+. Half of those attacks wound a Raider on 4+, and the other half wound it on a 3+ and do 2 damage. That's not great at punching our Raiders?

They have 7 attacks on the charge (with Waaagh). It looks like you must have played against Goffs, otherwise their attacks are str 5 D1, or S6 D2. No matter what though, only 2 attacks can be the S7 D2, so definitely not half.


I dunno. It sounds like your opponent was either cheating a lot, didn't bother to read their book when they clearly don't have the rules memorized, or your mis-remembering some things (or some combination of the three). Orks are for sure a rough matchup in crusade where speed=victory, but not nearly as bad as you experienced. 


-They're Ld 6 and not immune to morale/combat attrition
-They have only 2 D2 attacks (though can generate additional on a 6, if Goffs).
-They don't have 10 attacks.


That said, 4 PL for 3 squighog boyz is absurd. One PL more than 5 wyches for more than double the wounds, more speed, more attacks, more strength, more toughness. There is no reason those should be anything less than 6 PL.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 18 2021, 18:42

My mistake. Yes, those Squig Riders are one of the best units in their codex. 25 pts each I believe, and they do hit pretty hard.

They are also incredibly fragile. They got decent Toughness and a few Wounds, but no armor to speak of. They also lack Infantry keyword, so no running thru walls or getting Light Cover.

In my game I targeted them with Lances and Incubi. Both were able to make a nice mess of things Wink

As for low point games/ Power Level play, I honestly dont have much experience. Power Level is a very different game than points, with different optimal builds to maximize value. My advise is based on point costs, not Power Levels, so you may need to read between the lines.

As others have said, its possible your opponent made a few mistakes. Very easy to happen, especially when playing a new Codex or not a Competitive player who practices multiple times each week.

Best of luck figuring it out, and let us know what works for you with Power Levels in mind. I am curious to see what works so I know in the future!
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 18 2021, 20:36

Talking about Orkz! Here are some newz about the new book.

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 18 2021, 23:37

@sekac wrote:
They have 7 attacks on the charge (with Waaagh). It looks like you must have played against Goffs, otherwise their attacks are str 5 D1, or S6 D2. No matter what though, only 2 attacks can be the S7 D2, so definitely not half.

-They're Ld 6 and not immune to morale/combat attrition
-They have only 2 D2 attacks (though can generate additional on a 6, if Goffs).
-They don't have 10 attacks.[/color]

You're right. I have the Ork codex with me (I stole it from my friend... don't worry, I'll give it back).

Squighog Boyz are 25 points each and have 3 Attacks. When they waaagh, their Attacks characteristic is increased to 4.

Saddlegit Weapons give them an additional attack: 5 Attacks at S3, Ap-1, D1

Squighog Jaws give them 2 extra attacks: S6, Ap-1, D2

They have WS 3+, but because they have the Beast Snagga Rule and they are targeting a Vehicle, they hit on 2+. And because they are Snakebites and they have the Squig keyword, they wound at +1.

So, 5 chances to wound a Raider on a 5+, and 2 chances to wound it on a 3+ and do 2 damage.

I do think that maybe my friend used the Saddlegit Weapons as if they were Strength (User) rather than S3 (I may be wrong, and he didn't). Either way, all of those dice rolls hitting on 2+ and wounding at +1, I don't fancy my Raider's chances.

Also looking at the Codex, Mob Rule only says that they are never considered under half strenght, not that they never take Attrition tests or that they ignore all modifiers, so yeah that would've made some diff.

@fisheyes wrote:
My mistake. Yes, those Squig Riders are one of the best units in their codex. 25 pts each I believe, and they do hit pretty hard.

They are also incredibly fragile. They got decent Toughness and a few Wounds, but no armor to speak of. They also lack Infantry keyword, so no running thru walls or getting Light Cover.

They are T6, 3 Wounds each, 4+ save, and (being Snakebites) they all have the equivalent of Transhuman Cheatology all the time, so fragile they are not. Sure, if you had a little space to run around in, and more than two small units to shoot them with, you could probably wear them down, but that is not the case here.

It wasn't a total loss: My Archon ended up with a battle scar that is a mixed curse (she loses Power from Pain, but all damage against her is halved). And she gained enough experience so that next time she can be upgraded to Splintered Genius, and the next time after that the Kabalites can be upgraded to Trueborn. Plus the Succubus did kill a lot of them, which shows that they will go down if you can hit them before they hit you.

Look at it this way: 25 PL works out to about 500 points. Your opponent's list is:

Patrol Detachment
1 x Beastboss on squigosaur
2 x 6 Squighog boyz
1 x 10 Gretchin

Your list also has to be a Patrol Detachment, and about 500 points. What do you take?

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 19 2021, 01:31

@Barking Agatha wrote:
Look at it this way: 25 PL works out to about 500 points. Your opponent's list is:

Patrol Detachment
1 x  Beastboss on squigosaur
2 x 6 Squighog boyz
1 x 10 Gretchin

Your list also has to be a Patrol Detachment, and about 500 points. What do you take?

Succubus (Comp Edge/Trip Whip)
Succubus (Precision Blows/Dark Lotus Toxin/Razorflails)
5 x Wyches
5 x Incubi
5 x Mandrakes
5 x Shredder Scourges
Raider (Dark Lance)

Is it really that problematic if Raiders get destroyed easily by something in close combat? We've got plenty of melee units that can do actual work there.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 19 2021, 04:18

@Burnage wrote:


Is it really that problematic if Raiders get destroyed easily by something in close combat? We've got plenty of melee units that can do actual work there.

I guess it's a problem if the raiders are getting destroyed AND completely surrounded.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 19 2021, 06:20

How are Venoms this edition?

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 19 2021, 08:06

@Marrath wrote:
How are Venoms this edition?

They're fine but not amazing. Raiders however are really good so venoms are kind of shoved out rather than struggling on their own. 


The army works great when popping melee units out of transports and using the extra 3" to launch into combat. We also attack best in waves, sending in a few units at a time knowing they'll die on your opponent's turn, then sending in the next wave.


Unfortunately, venoms don't fit that style well. With only transport capacity 6, they can hold at most 2 threats (unless just stacking characters in it) when Raiders can hold 3. So they don't play the wave game as well and they're not cheap enough to compensate by bringing more of them. You'd have to buy 9 venoms to save enough points to run a 10th one. They also are just little triangles when it comes to disembarking. A raider parked sideways can give units a lot more flexibility and range when they jump out.


So there are only 3 real reasons to run venoms right now:
1) Those are the models you own/have painted.
2) You value the ability to hide them out of LoS.
3) You feel like you have enough anti-tank elsewhere and you value the poison.

Or, I guess, option 4 is because you just wanna run them, and thats cool too.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 19 2021, 11:45

Their flickerfields are a nice bonus, though...

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 19 2021, 12:46

@Burnage has the right idea. I would go something along those lines for a 25PL list.

Venoms are also easier to hide, and slightly faster. Flickerfield can be nice too, if you dont have Dense terrain nearby to abuse.

When Venoms are run in a Poison Tongue they have the ability to put out some hurt (armor save depending). Plus redeploy (if you want to spend all your CP)

But I dont run any Venoms, just Raiders at this time.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 19 2021, 20:46

@Burnage wrote:

Succubus (Comp Edge/Trip Whip)
Succubus (Precision Blows/Dark Lotus Toxin/Razorflails)
5 x Wyches
5 x Incubi
5 x Mandrakes
5 x Shredder Scourges
Raider (Dark Lance)

Nice! But what would your Crusade Roster look like then? And how would you recruit for Adeptus Mechanicus, Death Guard, or Salamanders? (Those being the others in the Crusade).

@fisheyes wrote:
When Venoms are run in a Poison Tongue they have the ability to put out some hurt (armor save depending). Plus redeploy (if you want to spend all your CP)

Those were my thoughts too, but Snakebites counter it just by being Snakebites. I'd be better off with anything else, but you can't change those choices during a Crusade.

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 20 2021, 16:25

Here is the summary oft the new FAQ. Be'lakor seems to be the big looser...

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 23 2021, 23:40

New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 ZTuJJmpkj2raqHSZ

Looks like Black Templars have access to long range flamers. Oh, and they stick them on Primaris...

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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 24 2021, 12:37

Cool looking weapon. Not OP by any means, but AP2 in Tac Doc will be pretty nice.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 24 2021, 14:18

one point though............a flamer that spit farer than a pistol.........i mean........does it make senses? Those pistols would really need an upgrade in the range department IMHO :/
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 24 2021, 17:20

"Does it make sense"

This is a phrase that should never come up in a 40k discussion Wink
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