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 New Codizes and what we think about them

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Zenotaph
Marrath
Sarcron
Barking Agatha
Cerve
The Strange Dark One
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Some_Call_Me_Tim
krayd
Deckard_2049
toldavf
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fisheyes
Klaivex
fisheyes


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 18:49

All interesting and cool stuff. But how many points? ....

This will hopefully shake up the AdMech meta. I dont think they have any more psykic defence than us?
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Kalmah
Wych
Kalmah


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 19:17

now the thing i want to see is what will happen to our spell casting ability?
How will they replace the loss of our ''free'' smite?
My guts are telling me that we (GK and TS) will be able to cast all of our spell multiple of time but every time with a higher warp charge.
At least this is what i hope for lol..........fingers crossed but i would'nt bet too much on that Wink
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fisheyes
Klaivex
fisheyes


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 19:24

Who is this "our"?

We kill psykers on site (or worse). Cant allow another dysjunction in the dark city.

If someone in your kabal is manifesting Smites, I think a visit to the Supreme Overlord is in order.... Wink

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Zenotaph
Hekatrix
Zenotaph


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 19:55

Best way to smite someone is massive Dark Light fire... Twisted Evil

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toldavf
Hellion
toldavf


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 22:00

The new dreadknight looks bonkers btw, it's sword is crazy.
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Zenotaph
Hekatrix
Zenotaph


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 22:17

Jup, but lets wait how much points per Babycarrier they want. Maybe its not worth it...

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toldavf
Hellion
toldavf


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 22:42

@Zenotaph wrote:
Jup, but lets wait how much points per Babycarrier they want. Maybe its not worth it...

120ish base i think
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Zenotaph
Hekatrix
Zenotaph


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 23:09

Plus weaponry? And optional Grandmaster...

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Soulless Samurai
Incubi
Soulless Samurai


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 23:52

@fisheyes wrote:
Who is this "our"?

We kill psykers on site (or worse). Cant allow another dysjunction in the dark city.

If someone in your kabal is manifesting Smites, I think a visit to the Supreme Overlord is in order.... Wink

Archon - 'We have no need for these vile psykers! Why, our arcane technology more than makes up for their pathetic abilities!'

The Archon's arcane technology:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X2ALG9iGPg

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fisheyes
Klaivex
fisheyes


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 06 2021, 12:13

Lol.

It will be hard to ballance these psykic armies. If they dont have enough MW generation they will fail. If they have too much it will break the game worse than AdMech (because there is little to no defence in many cases).

But we will see tomorrow!
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Kalmah
Wych
Kalmah


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 06 2021, 13:50

no no! you don't get it!
You should know it by now, Drukhari are never doing what you think they are doing!

If i'm getting friendly with the Disciples of Tzeentch is for one simple reason: i want to befriend Tzeentch itself by offering him what he can't refuse (domination over his 3 brothers) so that as the master of magic he allow us to use our long forbidden power again without attracting the attention of Slaanesh.
Now i will need some time to gather all the information i need, but know that if i do that is to allow us to rule the galaxy again!!!!!! Twisted Evil
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Soulless Samurai
Incubi
Soulless Samurai


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 06 2021, 15:40

@fisheyes wrote:
Lol.

It will be hard to ballance these psykic armies. If they dont have enough MW generation they will fail. If they have too much it will break the game worse than AdMech (because there is little to no defence in many cases).

But we will see tomorrow!

With regard to Mortal Wounds, we seem to be seeing a trend whereby more and more armies are gaining 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds abilities.

I bring this up because I'm increasingly scratching my head as to why Mortal Wounds are even in the game.

I thought they were a dubious enough mechanic in 8th but now that we're seeing army-wide invulnerable saves that only work against Mortal Wounds, it just feels like we're adding more and more complexity but still no actual depth. Neutral

I don't know, maybe I just miss psychic powers having different shooting (or even melee) profiles, rather than just having 14,836 different ways to deal d3 Mortal Wounds. Razz

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Zenotaph
Hekatrix
Zenotaph


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 06 2021, 16:23

And we got some News about Thousand Sons...
Scarabs and Rubrics gain a wound, All is Dust is ok. Seems solid, I think...

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Kalmah
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Kalmah


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 06 2021, 17:10

Today i'm seriously overjoyed by the reveal
Nothing is insane, the all is dust stays the same, Termi +1W +1A
But when you start to take into account the Stratagems, the Spells, the cabal rituals and the pacts, there seems to be so many combination available to do some broken stuff!
Like the pact +1S on ranged and after that do the 2cp strat +1WR on flamers.....damn!

The new stats for the Khopesh are so good when taking into account the new stats and possibilities.
The Soul Reaper canon is getting better.......definitely the Termis will be all star players in this codex!

And the best part of that, we only scratched the surface!!! so many things i want to see in the new TS codex Smile


Last edited by Kalmah on Fri Aug 06 2021, 17:25; edited 2 times in total
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Kalmah
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Kalmah


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 06 2021, 17:19

but seriously, i'm a little bit concerned with the, i think, low power level the GK seems to get........
Their stratagems seems overpriced again and still no real diversity for them and still no real firepower.
In melee they're gonna be good, but i don't know if this will be sufficient enough.


For the TS, my 2$ prediction: if something breaks the game, i think this will be the Cabalistic rituals!
For every games, every time you include an additional resource that nobody else have access to and nobody can interact with, this lead to some serious disbalance in games (looking at the energy mechanic in MTG).
The best part of it is that i can use it in reaction to what you are doing: you want to deny my spell? i say no you can't!!! I don't have to do it in prevision of what you will be doing and thats a big game changer
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toldavf
Hellion
toldavf


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 06 2021, 19:52

+1 save vs damage 1 and cover stacking in TS, guess that will be nerfed in the first patch +1 save marines ftw, also if you role out damage 2 weapons they can spend cp to nerf you back to one and get that sweet save.

TS termies with 0+ armour saves, -1 damage even if their invun is only 5+ they will almost never use it thanks to all that armour.
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The Strange Dark One
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The Strange Dark One


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 06 2021, 23:47

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
Lol.

It will be hard to ballance these psykic armies. If they dont have enough MW generation they will fail. If they have too much it will break the game worse than AdMech (because there is little to no defence in many cases).

But we will see tomorrow!

With regard to Mortal Wounds, we seem to be seeing a trend whereby more and more armies are gaining 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds abilities.

I bring this up because I'm increasingly scratching my head as to why Mortal Wounds are even in the game.

I thought they were a dubious enough mechanic in 8th but now that we're seeing army-wide invulnerable saves that only work against Mortal Wounds, it just feels like we're adding more and more complexity but still no actual depth. Neutral

I don't know, maybe I just miss psychic powers having different shooting (or even melee) profiles, rather than just having 14,836 different ways to deal d3 Mortal Wounds. Razz

Game mechanics are only as good as their implementation and from a high-level perspective, Mortal Wounds make a lot of sense. They are the only counters to invul saves and as a bonus, they deal with high armor targets too.

The biggest problem is the forced asymmetry of GW and that they apparently want to have an exception to every rule. This doesn't make the game more fun and adds unnecessary complexity and balancing constrains. It's much easier to make armies distinct by giving them a crapton of special rules instead of giving them signature playstyles. To be fair, this also takes considerable skill to do properly and I'm not naive enough to believe that GW is capable of such a thing.

In a way, I liked 40k the most during the Index times. Everybody was on the same power level, the game was streamlined. You knew what you could expect and there were just enough special rules to feel their impact and keep them all in your mind. Sure, a little more depth would have been nice and I'm very happy about our obsessions. But with how the feature creep is going, this is not a sustainable model.

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Soulless Samurai
Incubi
Soulless Samurai


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 08 2021, 13:58

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

Game mechanics are only as good as their implementation and from a high-level perspective, Mortal Wounds make a lot of sense. They are the only counters to invul saves and as a bonus, they deal with high armor targets too.

But this is also what creates a major problem - how do you appropriately cost and balance a weapon that inflicts the same number of wounds against a 50pt Guardsman squad and a ~600pt Imperial Knight?

It was a lazy solution to a problem that never should have existed in the first place.

Also, as we're seeing, you just end up with the constant one-upmanship. Armour saves are negated by AP, so units have invulnerable saves. But then you have Mortal Wounds that negate armour and Invulnerable saves, but then you have special saves that work against Mortal Wounds, and now we even have weapons that ignore Armour saves, Invulnerable saves and FNP saves.  



On a more minor level, surely I can't be the only one who finds the whole concept of Mortal Wounds to be both unintuitive and un-thematic?

"Oh no, my Platoon Commander has been mortally wounded! "Now he can only be mortally wounded three more times before he dies!"  Neutral

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Zenotaph
Hekatrix
Zenotaph


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 08 2021, 14:28

Here is the Goonhammer TS review. Looks good to me.
The Helldrake seems to be the big winner.

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Zenotaph
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Zenotaph


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 08 2021, 18:02

And here is the Grey Knight review. I think, TS are the winners.

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fisheyes
Klaivex
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 09 2021, 12:54

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:

Game mechanics are only as good as their implementation and from a high-level perspective, Mortal Wounds make a lot of sense. They are the only counters to invul saves and as a bonus, they deal with high armor targets too.

But this is also what creates a major problem - how do you appropriately cost and balance a weapon that inflicts the same number of wounds against a 50pt Guardsman squad and a ~600pt Imperial Knight?

It was a lazy solution to a problem that never should have existed in the first place.

Also, as we're seeing, you just end up with the constant one-upmanship. Armour saves are negated by AP, so units have invulnerable saves. But then you have Mortal Wounds that negate armour and Invulnerable saves, but then you have special saves that work against Mortal Wounds, and now we even have weapons that ignore Armour saves, Invulnerable saves and FNP saves.  



On a more minor level, surely I can't be the only one who finds the whole concept of Mortal Wounds to be both unintuitive and un-thematic?

"Oh no, my Platoon Commander has been mortally wounded! "Now he can only be mortally wounded three more times before he dies!"  Neutral

This.

I know exactly how this went at GW:

Increase weapon damage output > add in FNP saves > increase damage output > add in Invulnerable saves > add in damage D weapons > replace damage D weapons with MWs > Profit.
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Kalmah
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Kalmah


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 09 2021, 14:04

in a way, for my part, i'm ok with that IF (and only if) they can do it properly.
If this can lead to something à-la rock-paper-scissor than i'm fine with that because this will lead to something close to a balance.
But to reach this point is a colossal task and sadly, seeing how they are doing their rules, i'm far from being convinced that they'll ever be able to reach that quality level.......
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 09 2021, 16:40

@Kalmah wrote:
in a way, for my part, i'm ok with that IF (and only if) they can do it properly.
If this can lead to something à-la rock-paper-scissor than i'm fine with that because this will lead to something close to a balance.
But to reach this point is a colossal task and sadly, seeing how they are doing their rules, i'm far from being convinced that they'll ever be able to reach that quality level.......

The issue for me is that all these different saves add a lot of complexity but almost no depth.

You could maybe make an argument that there's a bit of depth in the list-building phase (either in terms of what anti-save weapons you have or in choosing a subfaction that gives you a better save) but once everything is on the table their saves are generally fixed. So all you really end up with is an awful lot of dice rolling and not a lot actually happening.

I mean, even if you don't have a myriad of rerolls, you can still get:
Roll shots --> Roll hits --> roll wounds --> roll damage --> roll armour/invulnerable saves --> roll FNP saves

Or if you're really unlucky:
Roll shots --> Roll hits --> reroll 1s --> roll wounds --> reroll 1s --> separate 6s --> roll damage for normal wounds --> roll armour/invulnerable saves for normal wounds --> reroll 1s --> roll FNP saves for normal wounds --> roll armour/invulnerable saves for special 6s-to-wound effect --> reroll 1s --> roll FNP saves for special 6s-to-wound effect

Given that most other games can usually resolve attacks with just a couple of rolls, this seems rather excessive. Razz

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Kalmah
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Kalmah


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 09 2021, 17:26

lol about the complexity without depth, we're on the same page Wink
i agree that at certain point, like the example you gave with the rerolls, the exploding 6's etc...

it's not an interesting level of complexity......complex does not mean you will lose count every time or for sure you will forget one rule there and there just because you're not a professional player who knows every codex. The complexity should lie in the strategies to use.

Chess i think is one of the most complex game ever, but the rules fit in one page and everything do one action at a time :/
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Zenotaph
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Zenotaph


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PostSubject: Re: New Codizes and what we think about them   New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 13 2021, 14:04

New Codizes and what we think about them - Page 6 MfxBgHoOOLFPTl2r

Well, the last two will be something Imperial and something Xenos.
Traitor Legions will see new Books next year.

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