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 Will AdMech steal the show from us?

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sekac
Zenotaph
CptMetal
mattblowers
Yziel
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Soulless Samurai
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toldavf
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Zenotaph
Hekatrix
Zenotaph


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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 20 2021, 15:22

Might even be worth it, to think about the treacherous deceiver WL-Trait. Just hopp right into the biggest Orkmob.

Or with a custom cult for Ld-bombing.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 20 2021, 18:33

Last weekend I had a 5 man unit of wyches kill 3 Reavers by making a whack of 6+ saves. I nearly fell over XD

But honestly I cant get rid of CoS. Those strats are JUST TOO GOOD! Every game I use the "run thru models" strat, and its SO HANDY being able to spend 2CP to either re-roll all wounds or just straight up fight again.

Thinking of transitioning over to a RSR, and will just spend the 2CP to bring Draz in a CoS Aux.

How are you guys getting around lacking Ignore OW and not being able to run thru models?
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Patayou
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 20 2021, 19:51

fisheyes wrote:


How are you guys getting around lacking Ignore OW ?

We just charge the raider first THEN the wyches
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Zenotaph
Hekatrix
Zenotaph


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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 00:07

Well, from what I read here at goonhammer, they really are on a roll.
AdMech is in every top3, top5 and top10 multiple times. The question is: Is AdMech easier to play than Drukhari?

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 01:31

Zenotaph wrote:
Well, from what I read here at goonhammer, they really are on a roll.
AdMech is in every top3, top5 and top10 multiple times. The question is: Is AdMech easier to play than Drukhari?

I don't think that they are easier to play than Drukhari.

However, AdMech have a few things that are pretty broken.

Massed Ballistarii are probably the best anti-tank unit in the game.
The Enriched Rounds strat is disgustingly powerful, particularly when used on a unit of 20 vanguard (especially when said unit of vanguard is getting character buffs).
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sekac
Wych
sekac


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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 04:25

Zenotaph wrote:
sweetbacon wrote:
 And yet.  The outcry over them has been a mere fraction of what it was over DE.  Curious....

Well, I think most people cried out, because of the Razorbus and DT Liquifier glitches in the rules.
Honestly said: Using those was kinda legit cheating. After fixing those, most voices got silent...

I understand your point and your personal feelings on the matter, but no. They were in no way "legit cheating". Overpowered? Absolutely. Broken? Yes. Abusive? Sure. But using rules that GW publishes because they did a poor job playtesting is not in any way cheating. Cheating is intentionally breaking the rules of the game to gain advantage, not using rules that Zenotaph wishes you wouldn't. 


You don't get to decide what constitutes cheating. You get to decide whether or not you want to play with people who are using rules you don't like and that's 100% okay. But saying "I don't like this, therefore people who use it are cheaters" is wrong. 


I don't like the ridiculous Ad Mech rules. That doesn't make Ad Mech players cheaters. That isn't how it works. Ad Mech absolutely needs a number of nerfs, but using unfixed Ad Mech isn't cheating just because I say so.
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Zenotaph
Hekatrix
Zenotaph


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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 12:50

Maybe I should have stated it another way. I refered to old computer game cheat codes.
They were implemented by the programmers, but only used by those, who either couldnt win normally,
or just did not want to.

And yes, its not for me to decide, what cheating is. I absolutely am with you on that.
But from my personal point of view, Tricks like pre nerf DT Liquifier and Razorbus were cheating.

I hope, I could clarify that for you. I just wrote from my very own personal sense of fairness.
All in all, no harm done. But you were right, my views arent that of all, maybe not even many. Wink

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 14:09

@zenotaph i gotta say, even if i will not call that ''cheating'', that i approve your point of view.
I know it's not cheating, but it's just common sense: when you see a rules that you know makes no senses and that it's a mistake that slipped in, but, because you're only argument is: well, it is written so......(or in some case, NOT written), it sadden me when you know that every people playing this game do have a brain and some analysis skills but will go down the rabbit hole anyway.

its as if in the driving rules, if it was'nt written that you have to stop when a pedestrian cross the street, you would pass over them and just say to the police man: show me where it is written that i CAN'T do that!!

I know my example is extreme, and i'm fully aware that you have to draw the line somewhere, and usually this line is what is written in the rules as it is, but i do get what Zenotaph tried to highlight with his argument.

And again, playing competitive and playing pretzel and beer games, you do not have the same mindset.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 14:18

Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 43ex0510

Choose your mindset? lol! lol!

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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 15:34

So... Admech nerfs tomorrow, going to be interesting how they handle it after how they "fixed" DT Liquifiers.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 15:43

Its so funny that the nerfs always comes in JUST BEFORE the release of a new Codex to allow it to shine brighter Wink
Can'T wait to see what has received the hammer! PRobably just some points increase? because in comparison to DT and Razorbus, i don't think it's that easy to nerf them......
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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 15:47

They specifically mentioned large units of skitarii and "interractions" with Ironstriders so at minimum I'd expect scaling CP cost on Stratagems.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 15:56

Yziel wrote:
They specifically mentioned large units of skitarii and "interractions" with Ironstriders so at minimum I'd expect scaling CP cost on Stratagems.

that would already be a good start since they need to do a lot of pre-game stratagem to fully have their bonus
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 16:06

Zenotaph wrote:
Well, from what I read here at goonhammer, they really are on a roll.
AdMech is in every top3, top5 and top10 multiple times. The question is: Is AdMech easier to play than Drukhari?

I do think AdMech are a lot easier to pilot than DE.

The complication comes from getting all the buffs correct (and if they mess up the average opponent wouldent even know).

The main difference (IMHO) comes from the positioning. They are MUCH more forgiving with the positioning. Buffs have infinite range with the data tether, units are durable enough that its really hard to punish being too agressive, firepower has enough range its hard to be too far.

We win and lose around our positioning. You make 2 mistakes in a game (against an oponent of similar skill) and suddenly your down 400 points.

BTW, where are you guys seeing that the AdMech nerf will happen tomorrow?
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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 16:25

Metawatch article on Warhammer Community, last paragraph.a
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 17:44

sweetbacon wrote:
Even with DT Liquifiers and the Razorbus, we would still be underdogs against the new and improved Ad Mech.  

And that's kind of the real issue. Fixing Drukhari was easy. We had 2 total broken combos. One was due to badly written core rules and was easy to errata. The other was intentional, but just a bad choice. The fix was extremely lazy but they did it and it worked. We're still very good just because we're cost effective, but that's fixable too if the want. Just raise the cost of things that are undercosted.


Ad Mech is much harder to fix. Skitarii are probably a little undercosted, but not badly.  They just become wildly undercosted when you stack all the combos on them. How do you fix that? Do you raise the points assuming they'll have ALL the combos going even though only one squad per turn can have the full stack? Or do you individually go through and re-write multiple rules so the combo stack can't be as oppressive as it is?


A simple "this rule doesn't work on Skitarii" type thing they did with DT liqs isn't a very good approach. 

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 18:42

True, but I imagine a point increase would go a long way to balancing the AdMech.

TBH, I still think we are a little too cheap. Our META lists only went up 50 points on average (2.5%). I dont think it would be the end of the world if the most META units in our army went up a few more points.

If those top table DE Tournament lists went up another 100 points I think we would finally be able to buy Hellions at GW again Razz
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 29 2021, 19:44

fisheyes wrote:
True, but I imagine a point increase would go a long way to balancing the AdMech.

TBH, I still think we are a little too cheap. Our META lists only went up 50 points on average (2.5%). I dont think it would be the end of the world if the most META units in our army went up a few more points.

If those top table DE Tournament lists went up another 100 points I think we would finally be able to buy Hellions at GW again Razz

Oh I agree. But I like the way they handled it. Fix the things that are clearly and issue first and see how it all shakes out. If we're still ahead of the curve (and we are) then make some more points adjustments (Incubi and Succubi primarily).


A points adjustment against Ad Mech would certainly help but as we've seen from tournament results this last weekend, people are winning with different list compositions, but many of the same rule stack combos.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 30 2021, 12:47

HAPPY ADMECH NERF DAY everyone!

Lets see how GW handles the Cog Boys!

EDIT:

Just came out. No point increases, at all (from what I see).

-Ironstriders lost Core
-Enriched Rounds CP went up, and now only procs on a 5+ to hit.
-Galvanic Volley now only changes it from Heavy 2 to Heavy 3 (which is pretty big)
-Lucius +1 armour save no longer stacks with light cover

Nowhere near as heavy as our nerf...

Second Edit:

-Galvanic Volley actually not a nerf. Now they shoot 60 times at 30" instead of having to move within 15" of us for 80 shots. Still can move and shoot with BS3, stationary with BS2. Just a side-grade :/

I take back all my comments about DE needing another nerf. We are fine as-is when compared to this.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 30 2021, 13:30

A buddy in our warhammer group just mentioned, we will now see more flyers in AdMech lists.
Since he is our listbuilding genius, i believe him. And those Pteraxii, or whatever, are really bad news...

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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 30 2021, 13:36

If untouched there will definitely be more fliers, they're already crazy strong.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 30 2021, 13:39

Hmm, does anyone has the PDF for me? The official WH-Com page just hates me.

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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 30 2021, 13:52

Which pdf?

Nvm didn't realize it was out
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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 30 2021, 13:55

Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 Screen11
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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 30 2021, 14:04

Ironatriders losing their fall back and shoot is pretty good for us since we can get things to tie them up with pretty easy.

Overall looks like a pretty soft touch, big infantry blobs are still great but a bit less oppressive. We'll see if it's enough.
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