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 Will AdMech steal the show from us?

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sekac
Zenotaph
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Zenotaph
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 30 2021, 16:56

Thanks.

Hmm, heavy3 or rapid2? Depending on the table this could hurt a lot. A real lot...

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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 30 2021, 20:36

In the long run this will actually end up being bad for Ad Mech once GW realizes they didn’t go far enough to tone them down the first time.  I think it’s going to be another Iron Hands situation where the next round of nerfs are going to be much more heavy handed.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 31 2021, 00:32

sweetbacon wrote:
In the long run this will actually end up being bad for Ad Mech once GW realizes they didn’t go far enough to tone them down the first time.  I think it’s going to be another Iron Hands situation where the next round of nerfs are going to be much more heavy handed.

There's also a lot of stuff in the Ad Mech book that hasn't even been scrutinised properly yet which is very, very powerful. I was pretty shocked today when I looked closely at the Stratoraptor datasheet for the first time and realised it's the same price as a Razorwing except more durable and with substantially heavier firepower.


Last edited by Burnage on Sat Jul 31 2021, 13:26; edited 1 time in total
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 31 2021, 01:17

Dont forget: more manuverable. 90° before and after moving.

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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 01 2021, 02:50

I think Sean Nayden getting second at the Lone Star Open AFTER dropping Drukhari is more of a stealer than Admech.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03 2021, 18:01

Apparently last weekend AdMech had a 77% win rate.

Worse than Dark Eldar ever were.

I assume that is pre-"nerf", but IDK.

Starting to lose a few people from my Competitive gaming group over the current state of AdMech (and DE if I am being honest).

I really hope they give us another round of nerfs soon. Otherwise I may be bringing out my Guard for Fluff Only matches.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03 2021, 18:18

Why not play ESE fluffwise? Just for fun?

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 00:03

fisheyes wrote:
Apparently last weekend AdMech had a 77% win rate.

Worse than Dark Eldar ever were.

I assume that is pre-"nerf", but IDK.

Starting to lose a few people from my Competitive gaming group over the current state of AdMech (and DE if I am being honest).

I really hope they give us another round of nerfs soon. Otherwise I may be bringing out my Guard for Fluff Only matches.

The balance of the game feels so completely borked right now. Any faction stuck with an 8th edition Codex (outside of maybe Harlequins) is going to have a hell of a hard time versus almost any 9th ed one, especially the stronger recent releases.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 00:50

But it was the same with 8th. Every Kodex army could easily defeat every Index army.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 01:18

Zenotaph wrote:
But it was the same with 8th. Every Kodex army could easily defeat every Index army.

I'm possibly wearing rose-tinted glasses but I didn't think the disparity was this substantial. The statline differences in 9th are having more of an effect than the existence of stratagems and bonus rules did in 8th.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 02:07

You think, its the statlines, that makes AdMech so dangerous? Or Drukhari?
Lets see... Without special rules a wych has what? S3, T3, 1W, 3A, Ld7 and 6+.
Not very frightening, when you ask me. But undoubtedly one of the best units, we have.
But give it a 4++ in CC, no escape special rule, drugs, obsession and a load of strats, all in a fast Raider.
Now we are talking dangerous and frightening. Same with AdMech. One Skitarii is a joke.
But 20 of them, with half a dozen of stacked buffs?

So, is it the difference in statlines? Or strats and special rules?
Or maybe I got your whole post wrong. scratch

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 02:59

The statlines of many units and pieces of wargear have been substantially buffed since 8th edition. Marines are 2 wounds. Orks are T5. We get D3+3 damage Dark Lances and Wyches with 3 base attacks and -1 AP. Etc., etc.

Yes, obviously adding on strats and whatever the hell it is that Ad Mech do are what's making things so powerful. But at a fundamental level a Chaos Space Marine is going to be struggling versus a loyalist equivalent when they've still only got one wound, over a year into this edition.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 03:52

I gotta say that i agree with @Burnage
an 8th codex vs a 9th codex played by players with the same skill level will be almost futile.

luckily the pace at which the codices are being released seems to have been accelerated, so hopefully those bad-feeling moment will be a thing of the past soon Wink........until the release of a second SM codex!!!!!!!
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 15:16

Zenotaph wrote:
You think, its the statlines, that makes AdMech so dangerous? Or Drukhari?
Lets see... Without special rules a wych has what? S3, T3, 1W, 3A, Ld7 and 6+.
Not very frightening, when you ask me. But undoubtedly one of the best units, we have.
But give it a 4++ in CC, no escape special rule, drugs, obsession and a load of strats, all in a fast Raider.
Now we are talking dangerous and frightening. Same with AdMech. One Skitarii is a joke.
But 20 of them, with half a dozen of stacked buffs?

So, is it the difference in statlines? Or strats and special rules?
Or maybe I got your whole post wrong. scratch

My theory is that its the stats/abilities for the point costs.

The stats or abilities or weapons would be total garbage if you doubled the cost of the unit. I think there is a happy medium where you just put some tax on the "top" choices to bring them down to the rest of the game.

At this point, my idea would be to have a faction ranking, where some factions get extra points (like Tau and Imperial Guard) and some factions get less points (like us and AdMech). Probably balanced around the Marine/Necron power level.

If we bring a 1800 point list to a game vs Tyranids bringing 2200 point list (for a "2000 point"/Strike Force game), suddenly the game becomes an actual challenge.

The absolute point values would need to be determined by brains smarter than mine, but I really think this is the fix right now.

I played a Competitive game against a DG player last weekend, and the guy literally quit the game shortly after. I feel really bad about it...
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 15:33

The thing i'm wondering, and i don't know if there is numbers for that: as of late, people playing their game, be it competitive or not, does the winner wins with a ridiculous margin or the games are usually pretty close?

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 15:50

Im seeing a lot of Tourneys scoring matches based on the DIFFERENTIAL between the two armies. Which is supposed to stop people from going "hey, I really need an extra 2VPs this game. It doesnt affect the outcome, can we just say I scored an extra Engage/etc point?"

The result seems to be a lot of one sided games.

So far most of my games are determined by end of Turn 3 (when playing Dark Eldar). I got in a game of IG vs IG last weekend, and it was super tight to the very end. The most fun I have had in a while...
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 17:51

I think this is where it really hurts.
to win or to lose is the name of the game, in every game this is the outcome.
But the thing is, every time the winner wins one sided games, the loser is always pissed off.
Now if the thing repeats on and on, and you see that it is useless to play games until you receive your new codex, this is when people start jumping off the boat.

@fisheyes .........stupid question: what are the IG
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 18:03

Imperial Guard. Nowadays called Astra Militarum...

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 19:50

Yup, Imperial Guard.

Not sure why they changed it to Astra Militarum, since it shares the acronym with Adeptus Mechanicus. So many confusing conversations talking about "AM" XD

But playing old codex vs itself was a lot of fun. Reasonably balanced, with a lot of back-and-forth.

Very different to playing current DE (except when your playing against another DE army, or a super good player piloting their chosen list)
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 22:18

fisheyes wrote:
Yup, Imperial Guard.

Not sure why they changed it to Astra Militarum, since it shares the acronym with Adeptus Mechanicus. So many confusing conversations talking about "AM" XD

Same reason they dropped Dark Eldar for Drukhari, Space Marines for Adeptus Antares, etc. 


So they could copyright the name. Imperial Guard is not a name unique to GW and so it cannot be copywritten.
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04 2021, 23:14

And Dark Eldar, Eldar and Space Marines arent unique either? I wonder where those are also used... Suspect

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 00:10

Zenotaph wrote:
And Dark Eldar, Eldar and Space Marines arent unique either? I wonder where those are also used... Suspect

Eldar is a word Tolkien uses for some group of elves but I don't know more beyond that since I've not read anything beyond LotR and the Hobbit. The word has been used to mean elves in fantasy since.


Space Marines has been used in sci-fi fiction since the 1930s and Robert A Heinlein used it several times. Starship Troopers (published in 1959) is credited with the current concept of power armored warriors that GW absolutely stole from him. A while back 6th or 7th edition they tried to copyright the phrase but they lost in court due to the fact that it has been used many times by many authors for at least 70 years.


Their loss in court began their wave of re-branding everything into something they could control. They own "orks" but not "orcs", which is why they're now called "Orruks" in AoS.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 08:55

Always makes me laugh that GW cobbled together their setting and background by shamelessly and blatantly stealing from the ideas of others (Moorcock, Herbert, Heinlein, Tolkein to name but a few) and then tried to claim it as their own unique IP and get all idignant about anyone trying to do to them what they'd done to others.

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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 12:04

sekac wrote:
Zenotaph wrote:
And Dark Eldar, Eldar and Space Marines arent unique either? I wonder where those are also used... Suspect

Eldar is a word Tolkien uses for some group of elves but I don't know more beyond that since I've not read anything beyond LotR and the Hobbit. The word has been used to mean elves in fantasy since.


Space Marines has been used in sci-fi fiction since the 1930s and Robert A Heinlein used it several times. Starship Troopers (published in 1959) is credited with the current concept of power armored warriors that GW absolutely stole from him. A while back 6th or 7th edition they tried to copyright the phrase but they lost in court due to the fact that it has been used many times by many authors for at least 70 years.


Their loss in court began their wave of re-branding everything into something they could control. They own "orks" but not "orcs", which is why they're now called "Orruks" in AoS.

They can own 'Ork'?
I doubt it, since that is the German spelling of 'orc'.
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PostSubject: Re: Will AdMech steal the show from us?   Will AdMech steal the show from us? - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 05 2021, 12:22

sekac wrote:
fisheyes wrote:
Yup, Imperial Guard.

Not sure why they changed it to Astra Militarum, since it shares the acronym with Adeptus Mechanicus. So many confusing conversations talking about "AM" XD

Same reason they dropped Dark Eldar for Drukhari, Space Marines for Adeptus Antares, etc. 


So they could copyright the name. Imperial Guard is not a name unique to GW and so it cannot be copywritten.

I mean they didnt have to use the acronym "AM" on two different factions. There are 675 combinations of two letter acronyms possible, why not "AB" or "AZ", etc.

I would be just as happy with "Astra Guardarius" or some such Razz
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