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 Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?

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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 13:54

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Prizes from the Dark City does not normally allow you to pick the Obsession Relics, only Artefacts of Cruelty. Realspace Raid gets explicit permission to do so but, other than that, you can only take one by having your Warlord with that obsession.

Where does it say that only RSR gets explicit rules saying this? The example is not a rule that says only RSR can do it, it is an example that the stratagem can be used to take Obsession relics.

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 14:27

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Prizes from the Dark City does not normally allow you to pick the Obsession Relics, only Artefacts of Cruelty. Realspace Raid gets explicit permission to do so but, other than that, you can only take one by having your Warlord with that obsession.

Where does it say that only RSR gets explicit rules saying this? The example is not a rule that says only RSR can do it, it is an example that the stratagem can be used to take Obsession relics.

The question should be, where does it say you can take an obsession relic? Pg53 says you can take the associated relic if, and only if, your warlord is from the relevant faction. Pg49 adds to that by saying that in a RSR detachment you can take the associated relic for your Haem and Succubus' faction even though your warlord is not from those factions.

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 14:39

I was gonna say, every tournament list I've seen is patrols with multiple succubus taking multiple CoS relics which should be illegal by this interpretation unless the book of Rust has different wording.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 15:09

As far as I can tell the discrepancy is due to the fact our obsessions are separated off into their own sections and include the WL trait, strat and relics in there rather than in any other book where all the relics are together with a <Subfaction Only Relic> tag. That leads me to believe they intended us to be able to purchase obsession relics with the dark prizes but there was crossed wires as to where to select them from page wise, since in every other instance of relics selecting they're all handled together, generic and faction specific.
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 15:27

@Gizamaluke wrote:
I was gonna say, every tournament list I've seen is patrols with multiple succubus taking multiple CoS relics which should be illegal by this interpretation unless the book of Rust has different wording.

Cult of Strife relics are slightly different in that they are explicitly called out as being Artefacts of Cruelty. You can therefore use Prizes from the Dark City with them.

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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 19:08

If it was intended for you to take Obsession relics why point out that you can do it specifically for you Warlord and RSR, there would be 0 reason to do so if everything was just Relics.

And yes the supplement things specifically say that they are Artefacts of Cruelty.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 19:33

Because if they wanted to stop me using my Obsession relics in patrols they should have;
A. Made it completely clear by saying "You may not take obsession relics for any Character whom is not the Warlord of your Detachment."
B. Made our characters decent enough to stand on their own feet without needing relics and WL traits to compare with other armies.
I dont think they had some intention to limit our use of Obsession based relics, why would they and then allow multiple CoS relics in the Book of Rust with different wording?
RAW you may be right, it doesn't look like we can use any relics other than those on the 2 pages of Artefacts of Cruelty but why punish yourself further if tournaments aren't going to enforce it, it isn't broken and it only makes list building even more difficult for us?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 20:03

@Gizamaluke wrote:
RAW you may be right, it doesn't look like we can use any relics other than those on the 2 pages of Artefacts of Cruelty but why punish yourself further if tournaments aren't going to enforce it

Erm...

Attention ACO Participants (and Reece Robbins and Kicker Kalozdi)
If you are building your army with a NON - REAL SPACE RAID YOU MAY NOT USE Prizes of the Dark City to take a relic that is not associated with your Warlords <Homunculus Coven>, <Kabul> or <Wych Cult>.
Aka if you take Drazhar as your Warlord in a <cult of strife> detachment you can not take a Cult of Strife Repic with Prizes of the Dark City.
If you use a Real Space Raid detachment you can but only in the Real Space Raid detachment.
We have seen this problem across many lists today and we are giving you a chance to adjust your list.
This is our ruling on this. You are being allowed to change your list with a warning Aka little to no penalty to make it legal. If you do not take this chance to adjust your list you will be subject to normal penalties at event.
We are emailing EVERY Drukari player. If this does not effect you you can ignore this.
You have 24 hours (until 10pm EST June 9, 2021) from the time this is sent to adjust your list. All list will be locked from view for other players until Thursday afternoon. Please email ME ( email is found in the player pack) with your list in plain text in body of email or Facebook message me with it and am will upload ASAP.
We felt this was the fairest way to allow everyone to have a good time.
Thank you,
Legion Brian Horton

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Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 YhBv3Wk
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 20:08

Oh! Interesting. Well let's hope they clear it up in the FAQ as it seems unnecessarily restrictive.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 20:48

Is this sarcasm? Or is it for real?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 21:39

That was taken from a post on the competitive 40k FB page and there was a follow up comment from Reece Robbins (FLG/ITC head honcho) that they had discussed this with GW at the 'highest possible level' and that was the intent of the rule.

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 22:01

I just had to ask. No offence meant. Wink

To be on the safe side: FLG/ITC means Frontline gaming/international tournament circuit?
Or at least something in that direction...

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 22:09

Yup

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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 22:33

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't make a big difference at the top right, since people are taking double cos succs with rust relics, djinnblade/helm of spite and drazhar. Just seems like a silly ruling imo for people who want to play different subfactions and have their characters be useful.
Previously I'd play Blackheart Writ Archon, 12 Flensing Haemy and a Cursed Suicide bomber Succ but now I'd have to choose only 1 of the above.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 23:14

PT Archon: Soulheim
DC Haemonculus: Poisoners Ampule
CB Succubus: Triptych Whip

Works out fine. No rule violation for me! cheers cheers cheers

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 11 2021, 14:16

finally a clear interpretation! Huge thanks @Count Adhemar
I was already using it the way it was meant to be, so i'm all good with it Smile
thanks again for your time all!
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 11 2021, 17:49

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Attention ACO Participants (and Reece Robbins and Kicker Kalozdi)
If you are building your army with a NON - REAL SPACE RAID YOU MAY NOT USE Prizes of the Dark City to take a relic that is not associated with your Warlords <Homunculus Coven>, <Kabul> or <Wych Cult>.  
Aka if you take Drazhar as your Warlord in a <cult of strife> detachment you can not take a Cult of Strife Repic with Prizes of the Dark City.  
If you use a Real Space Raid detachment you can but only in the Real Space Raid detachment.
We have seen this problem across many lists today and we are giving you a chance to adjust your list.  
This is our ruling on this.  You are being allowed to change your list with a warning Aka little to no penalty to make it legal.  If you do not take this chance to adjust your list you will be subject to normal penalties at event.
We are emailing EVERY Drukari player.  If this does not effect you you can ignore this.
You have 24 hours (until 10pm EST June 9, 2021) from the time this is sent to adjust your list.   All list will be locked from view for other players until Thursday afternoon.  Please email ME ( email is found in the player pack) with your list in plain text in body of email or Facebook message me with it and am will upload ASAP.  
We felt this was the fairest way to allow everyone to have a good time.
Thank you,
Legion Brian Horton

While I'm glad that players are given a consistent message when it comes to list design, this ruling seems arbitrary. It is neither the RAW interpretation nor a reasonable RAI interpretation.

1) Disallowing Writ of the Living Muse when you have a succubus for a warlord makes sense. The obsession specific relics are referred to as relics, not artifacts of cruelty so this is justified as RAW

2) Disallowing Book of Rust artifacts of cruelty is not a RAW interpretation. It seems to me like the TOs are looking for a soft nerf of Book of Rust, but there is factually no conflict with how Prizes from the Dark City works.

3) Allowing relics associated with the master HQs using Prizes of the Dark City is the opposite of RAW. If obsession-specific relics can't be taken because they are relics not artifacts of cruelty, then why are the master relics (which are also not artifacts of cruelty) allowed?

Two opposite conclusions in one rules interpretation supports the idea that this is primarily a ruling for balance, not trying to get the rule right. Whoever they talked to at GW who told them that's how the rule was intended is lying to them.

"No no, we totally meant for Prizes of the Dark City to disallow relics because they aren't artifacts of cruelty. But we also meant for it to disallow artifacts of cruelty from the Book of Rust, we just called them artifacts of cruelty...uhh...accidentally. Oh yeah, and we also meant for it to allow the master relics even though they are relics, not artifacts of cruelty. Yep, we totally thought through all that and intended it that way"

Sure you did, GW. Sure you did.

Moreover, the ACO message is badly worded as well and a literal interpretation is absurdly restrictive to the point where you can only use PotDC in very specific cases: where you have 2 HQs of the same sub-faction in a patrol and one has a generic artifacts of cruelty (say the Helm of Spite) and you use PotDC to get the obsession-specifc relic that matches your WL's obsession.

By saying "YOU MAY NOT USE Prizes of the Dark City to take a relic that is not associated with your Warlords <Homunculus Coven>, <Kabul> or <Wych Cult>" then even generic artifacts of cruelty are not allowed. None of those are associated with any Coven, Kabal, or Cult. So the only way you can gain access to those relics is to have them on a character who is your WL or in the same detachment as your WL. Then you can use PotDC to get only the obsession-specific relic for your WL's obsession (i.e. it can ONLY be used to unlock Writ of the Living Muse if your WL is Black Heart). I don’t think that's how they intended it, but that's how they've worded it for ACO.

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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 12 2021, 05:42

To your 3rd point Master Archons (and the others) can take their specific relics because it says so under their entry:

"You can give a MASTER ARCHON model with this Kabalite Diversion the Soulhelm Relic, instead of giving them an Artefact of Cruelty Relic."

For example while the Obsession ones follow this rule:

"Each Kabal, Wych Cult or Haemonculus Coven has an associated Relic. If your army is led by a <KABAL> WARLORD, <WYCH CULT> WARLORD or <HAEMONCULUS COVEN> WARLORD model from one of the Kabals, Wych Cults or Haemonculus Covens named in this section, you can select this Relic instead of Artefacts of Cruelty."

The restriction isn't on the extra relic stratagem the restriction is only the warlord's Obsession Relic can be taken. You don't have to take it on the warlord and as far as I can understand kit you can use Prizes of the Dark City to take it if you didn't pick it for your starting relic.


The Cult of Strife ruling is simply wrong from what I can read.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 12 2021, 08:36

@Yziel wrote:


The restriction isn't on the extra relic stratagem the restriction is only the warlord's Obsession Relic can be taken. You don't have to take it on the warlord and as far as I can understand kit you can use Prizes of the Dark City to take it if you didn't pick it for your starting relic.

I understand your logic, but by this interpretation the Drukhari book can never, ever play Prizes from the Dark City twice, despite the stratagem explicitly saying so.

If you can only ever use Prizes to unlock your warlord's <sub-faction> relic, and there is only one relic per <sub-faction>, then the text about using it multiple times shouldn't exist. It simply cannot be done. There is absolutely no way it was intended to have meaningless text.

Just follow the text on the stratagem:

"...if your warlord has the Drukhari keyword. Select one Drukhari character model from your army and give them an artifact of cruelty."

The implied "and despite the second half of this stratagem saying you can play it twice, you actually can't play it twice because there's another implied sentence saying that you can't take an artifact of cruelty not of your warlord's obsession and each obsession only has one sooo...." interpretation is absurd.

There's just no way that was the intent.
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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 12 2021, 09:50

Now you're just using moon logic and not reading what is written. When you use the stratagem (which is only restricted in uses based on game size. You are allowed to take an Artifact of Cruelty, when you do that a bunch of instances of other rules that dictate that when you pick an Artifact of Cruelty you may instead do something else goes into effect. It's not more complicated than that, you simply have to qualify for the replacement effects (such as having a Master Archon).

The wording for Obsession relics is "you can" which is an offered choice and not a forced replacement effect.

If you put the texts together into a single page and read it it might be easier for you? It's prety ABC when you do.
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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 12 2021, 10:59

I'm typing on my phone but if you would like I can rewrite the following entirely in book exerpts when I get home of it makes things clearer.

When you have the option of taking a Relic in the section starting on page 74, refered to as Artifact of Cruelty you may:

If the character chosen for the Relic is a Cult of Strife character they may instead pick one from pg 85 of Book of Rust as per pg 84 and p85 BoR.

If the Character is a Master A/S/H they may instead take their specific Relic as specified on pg 50 or 51 of the codex.

If the character has the same Obsession as the Warlord they may take the Obsession Relic (unless already taken) as per page 53 of the codex.

It doesn't matter if it's your base Relic or Prizes of the Dark City since all of the Relics have rules themselves dictating when you can take them instead of Prizes from the Dark City. All you need to do is meet the qualifying restrictions such as having the correct weapon.

These are all voluntary replacement effects and are not mandatory.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 12 2021, 15:35

@Yziel wrote:
Now you're just using moon logic and not reading what is written.

I'm reading what you wrote. What you wrote matches the ACO interpretation. You said the restriction is "only the Warlord's obsession can be taken". Only means you don't have a choice between several artifacts of cruelty. The generic relics do not fit the description of "only your Warlord's obsession". Neither do the Master Relics fit the description of "only your Warlord's obsession". So according to this interpretation, the only way to get either a master relic or a generic artifact of cruelty would be to take that as the free relic either on your WL or on someone in his detachment. Then you can play Prizes of the Dark City only to unlock the WL's obsession specific relic. Since each obsessession only has 1 relic, then the stratagem would have no effect if played twice.

That isn't moon logic, it is the only possible conclusion one can reach if the restriction is "only the relic of the Warlord's obsession may be taken". But that restriction is printed nowhere.

All that page 53 says on the matter is "If your army is led by a <Kabal> Warlord, <Wych Cult> Warlord, or <Haemonculus Coven> Warlord model from one of the Kabals, Wych Cults or Haemonculus Convens named in this section, you can select this Relic instead of those on pages 74-75."

It gives you an additional option when selecting a relic, it doesn't limit you to only choosing a relic of your Warlord's obsession.
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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 13 2021, 16:00

That is not what I wrote though I wrote that only the Warlord's Obsession Relic may be taken, none of the other Obsession Relics.

The only parts in the rulebook that allow you to take the Obession Relics is Page 53 and Page 49 none of them in a any way restrict Prizes of the Dark City.

You've come to a conclusion that is not supported anywhere in the rulebook and I have no idea how you arrived there.

The only thing restricting Prizes of the Dark City from being used is the size of the game.

@sekac wrote:

All that page 53 says on the matter is "If your army is led by a <Kabal> Warlord, <Wych Cult> Warlord, or <Haemonculus Coven> Warlord model from one of the Kabals, Wych Cults or Haemonculus Convens named in this section, you can select this Relic instead of those on pages 74-75."

It gives you an additional option when selecting a relic, it doesn't limit you to only choosing a relic of your Warlord's obsession.
Yes that is exactly what I said. It allows you to take the Obsession Relic instead on another relic and apart from the Realspace Raiders section it's the only part in the book that allows you to take an Obsession Relic, and it has to be the one belonging to the Warlord's Obsession.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 13 2021, 21:05

You know you're playing a GW game when the rules require a flowchart to understand. Rolling Eyes

So if I'm using the 3-patrol method of army construction, I'm not allowed to take any sub-subfaction specific relic, even if I'm using the associated sub-subfaction? RAW, it looks like this is correct but seriously, whoever thought this was a good idea deserves to have a cactus inserted into them.

I don't even get it. It's such a petty and unnecessary rule - especially for a faction that's already had its wargear and HQ section stripped to the bone. What problem is this even supposed to solve? Neutral


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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 14 2021, 20:16

@Yziel wrote:
You've come to a conclusion that is not supported anywhere in the rulebook and I have no idea how you arrived there.

I think you're confused about where I stand on this. You first responded to my criticism of the ACO ruling. My issue is specifically this sentence:

Quote :
If you are building your army with a NON - REAL SPACE RAID YOU MAY NOT USE Prizes of the Dark City to take a relic that is not associated with your Warlords <Homunculus Coven>, <Kabul> or <Wych Cult>.

The way they phrased it means Prizes of the Dark City can only ever be used to get your warlord's obsession relic. No other options. No generic artifacts of cruelty because those are not associated with your warlord's obsession. No master relics because those are not associated with your warlord's obsession. Is that my conclusion? No. That's what they wrote.

If they instead said something like "If you are building your army with a NON - REAL SPACE RAID YOU MAY NOT USE Prizes of the Dark City to take a relic that is associated with any obsesseion other than your warlord's <Haemonculus Coven>, <Kabal> or <Wych Cult>." then things would be different.

They probably meant for it to work how my reworded version reads, but again, that's not what they wrote. They phrased it so badly that if someone wanted to take a Drukhari army to ACO, they'd have to have a RAW/RAI debate about that ruling before settling on a list.

When you first replied to me, you made the same mistake they did. You phrased it in a way that suggests the additional relic can only come from your Warlord's obsession. You have since clarified that isn't your interpretation of it. I think overall, we agree.
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Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? - Page 2 Empty
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THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

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