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 Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?

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Kalmah
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amishprn86
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Count Adhemar
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Kalmah
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Kalmah

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PostSubject: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeFri May 21 2021, 14:07

If i remember correctly someone already asked this question, but can't find the topic again.....

so to put it simply: does every relics from our codex are Artifacts of Cruelty?
Does the Soulhelm (as an example) is an artifact of cruelty?
Does the Soulseeker is an artifact of cruelty?

I ask because of the Prizes from the Dark City stratagem who stipulates you can choose an artifact of cruelty.....

Thanks for clarifying Smile
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeFri May 21 2021, 16:39

All of the Drukhari relics are called 'Artefacts of Cruelty'. Its just what they are called.
I guess, the SM relics have a different title.

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeFri May 21 2021, 17:21

cool! thanks! i was'nt sure and i wanted to be sure to be legal Smile
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeFri May 21 2021, 18:38

The obsession-specific relics are not described as artefacts of cruelty.

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeFri May 21 2021, 19:26

ok thats what i thought after playing a little bit in the App........sadly we have to be really careful with the Prizes from the Dark City stratagem.
A huge thanks for clarifying @Count Adhemar Smile
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeSat May 22 2021, 11:12

@Count Adhemar wrote:
The obsession-specific relics are not described as artefacts of cruelty.
They are in Battlescribe. Wink

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeSat May 22 2021, 14:17

@Zenotaph wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
The obsession-specific relics are not described as artefacts of cruelty.
They are in Battlescribe. Wink

Battlescribe doesn't trump a GW codex though.

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Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? YhBv3Wk
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeSat May 22 2021, 14:18

I have not seen anyone play it otherwise though. It is interesting that it is worded that way.

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MangerDark
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 08 2021, 11:07

@Count Adhemar wrote:
The obsession-specific relics are not described as artefacts of cruelty.

Just to back this interpretation up with something approaching scripture, from Page 50 of the English Language Codex: "You can give a Master Archon model with this Kabalite Diversion the Soulhelm Relic instead of giving them an Artefact of Cruelty Relic." Similar text exists for the other two Master HQs. This suggests that certainly the Master relics are not Artefacts of Cruelty.

Coming in against that interpretation is a passage on page 53 specifically allowing a Haemonculus and a Succubus to take their respective Obession-related relics in an example of a Realspace Raid, even using Prizes from the Dark City. Well, I suppose it doesn't go against the question of whether or not they're Artefacts of Cruelty, but it does partially answer the question of whether or not they're covered by Prizes from the Dark City. [s]If someone at a tournament wanted to argue that a Realspace Raid was a special case, and you couldn't do that with Raiding Forces or any other kind of structure, then I could sign on to that.[/s] (EDIT: It is, see below.)

Although, taking this to its logical conclusion, Prizes from the Dark City wouldn't be valid for Crusade Relics, which seems a little pointless. Then again, if you're doing a Crusade with some friends (what are friends?) then maybe we just forget ever having this conversation and do the sensible thing.


Last edited by MangerDark on Tue Jun 08 2021, 12:54; edited 1 time in total
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 08 2021, 12:03

My current understanding is that the Artifacts are only the genaric relics from the main Codex. If you want faction locked Relics (like CoS), your warlord needs to be from that faction.

Ive been proven wrong before, but this appears to be the RAI, and how I will continue playing it.

We got a big buff being able to take mixed detatchments without breaking our Obsessions. Lets not get greedy here (although greed is totally fluffy for an Archon ;P )
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MangerDark
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 08 2021, 12:53

I'm being soft, because I've been looking at the wrong section. From Page 49 of the English Language Codex: "As well as gaining Drukhari Obsessions for each <Kabal> <Wych Cult> and <Haemonculus Coven> unit in a Realspace Raid Detachment (see page 53,) you can also select the associated Kabal, Wych Cult and Haemonculus Coven Relics for the units in that detachment even though your Warlord is not from a Wych Cult or a Haemonculus Coven."

tl;dr: you're right, but RSR is a special case.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 08 2021, 23:49

Pg66 of our codex shows you can use the stratagem to take obsession relics.

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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 09 2021, 00:36

You mean the example for a Realspace Raid? Yup, he got Writ of the living Muse and Traitors embrace.
So it seems legit to me.

Edit: I just gave RSR a try with Battlescribe. No chance...

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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 09 2021, 06:55

@amishprn86 wrote:
Pg66 of our codex shows you can use the stratagem to take obsession relics.

That page is an example detailing an example of a Realspace Raid. I still think that the passage I quoted from Pg 49 means that you can't do it with Raiding Forces using a strict reading of the rules.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 09 2021, 12:48

@MangerDark wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Pg66 of our codex shows you can use the stratagem to take obsession relics.

That page is an example detailing an example of a Realspace Raid. I still think that the passage I quoted from Pg 49 means that you can't do it with Raiding Forces using a strict reading of the rules.

Thats not how that works, its the wording on the Stratagem they are asking about.

We have a clear example that shows we can.

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MangerDark
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 09 2021, 13:15

I agree that you can do it in a Realspace Raid, there are two examples presented in the codex of people using sub-faction specific relics that don't correspond to the Warlord's subfaction in a Realspace Raid.

The Strategem says "select one Drukhari Character and give them one Artefact of Cruelty" and the only relics in the book that are clearly marked as Artefacts of Cruelty are the relics on pages 74 and 75.

If you're asking whether Artefacts of Cruelty extends to any relic in book, I would say that it ought to. It's how I'd play it if it were up to me, but it's not clear, and the only situation where the subfaction specific relics are clearly allowed when it doesn't match the Warlord's own subfaction is in a Realspace Raid. Taking this strict interpretation prevent you from using Prizes from the Dark City to give a non-Warlord character a Crusade Relic, which doesn't seem right.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 09 2021, 20:23

@MangerDark wrote:
I agree that you can do it in a Realspace Raid, there are two examples presented in the codex of people using sub-faction specific relics that don't correspond to the Warlord's subfaction in a Realspace Raid.

The Strategem says "select one Drukhari Character and give them one Artefact of Cruelty" and the only relics in the book that are clearly marked as Artefacts of Cruelty are the relics on pages 74 and 75.

If you're asking whether Artefacts of Cruelty extends to any relic in book, I would say that it ought to. It's how I'd play it if it were up to me, but it's not clear, and the only situation where the subfaction specific relics are clearly allowed when it doesn't match the Warlord's own subfaction is in a Realspace Raid. Taking this strict interpretation prevent you from using Prizes from the Dark City to give a non-Warlord character a Crusade Relic, which doesn't seem right.

The example in the book literally says they took the stratagem to give an Obsession relic to an HQ. So it is clear.

EDIT: B.c I'm guessing you didn't actually read pg66 here is the example

Because the detachment is a Realspace Raid, Alex has given the MASTER SUCCUBUS unit the Cult of the Cursed Blade's Relic (instead of only being able to select the Writ of the Living Muse because a KABAL OF THE BLACK HEART model is the WARLORD, or one of the Artefacts of Cruelty listed on pages 74-75).

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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 11:40

I don't think you two are disagreeing that you can do it in a RSR which is what that example says. Since it starts with " Beacause the detachment is a Realspace Raid" it really does nothing to support you being able to do that in a Raiding Force. Especially since it clearly separated Artifacts of Cruelty and other Relics even in that example.

In the example they don't even use the stratagem to take an Obessession Relic except for on their Warlord, they were specifically taking the base relic on the Succubus.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 11:52

@Yziel wrote:
I don't think you two are disagreeing that you can do it in a RSR which is what that example says. Since it starts with " Beacause the detachment is a Realspace Raid" it really does nothing to support you being able to do that in a Raiding Force. Especially since it clearly separated Artifacts of Cruelty and other Relics even in that example.

In the example they don't even use the stratagem to take an Obessession Relic except for on their Warlord, they were specifically taking the base relic on the Succubus.


That makes no sense at all, the wording on the stratagem doesn't change b.c its RSR vs Raiding Force.

This is an example using it for an Obsession relic that isn't called Artefacts of Cruelty, the detachment doesn't change that, RSR just allows you to actually use stratagems equally the same as any normal detachment would.

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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 12:06

Yes because the Warlord is always allowed to take a Relic from their Obesession instead of on page 74-75 regardless of how they get it as per page 53.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 12:30

Prizes from the Dark City does not normally allow you to pick the Obsession Relics, only Artefacts of Cruelty. Realspace Raid gets explicit permission to do so but, other than that, you can only take one by having your Warlord with that obsession.

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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 12:38

If it wasn't for the example I wouldn't be sure the wording actually allowed RSR detachments using the strat to pick Obsession Relics but it's clearly intended by the example.

It's an exception to the normal rule regardless and non-RSR can only take Obsession relics on the Warlord.
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Gizamaluke
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 12:46

How is it being interpreted at tournaments? Has anyone actually had their list questioned because they've used the stratagem to get a 2nd Obsession locked relic? Im just catching up on the situation
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 13:05

I've not seen a tournament list that's had multiple in non-RSR so that's not too helpful. I'd be pretty surprised if a TO ruled against the written rules in this case since intent seems pretty obvious.

Why even make an exception for Warlords and RSR if anyone could do it?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty?   Every relic from our codex is an Artifact of Cruelty? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10 2021, 13:51

@Gizamaluke wrote:
How is it being interpreted at tournaments? Has anyone actually had their list questioned because they've used the stratagem to get a 2nd Obsession locked relic? Im just catching up on the situation

No one takes RSR for tournaments and many are taking 4 WL/relics multiple CoS relics.

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