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 A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters

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toldavf
Hellion
toldavf

Posts : 53
Join date : 2021-05-05

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PostSubject: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeWed May 19 2021, 21:47

Not honestly a group of units I have ever experimented with, I don't play wych cult and even if I did I think bikes and hellions would be more tempting, that said lets take a look.

The beast master
Our only solo none hq weights in at a modest 40 points, slower and with fewer attacks than a helliarch they aren't amazing in combat, that said they are intended to be taken to keep your beast units in the fight and improve their effectiveness. You can apply a warlord trait to them and you do have access to a few relics, but most of the good stuff is locked to succubi. About the best one you can pick up is treacherous deceiver, throw him into a blob of orks and watch them murder them selves on the thorn damage.

Razorwing flocks
Small weak and cheap, they just do so little for that they are. They are quick sorta but when you reach the enemy you can't kill what you find there. Some have said that they make a good unit to hold objectives but for my money 5 wrack would do a better job.

Khymerae
3 strength 5 attacks, -1 AP and a 5+ invun. Offensively they make a solid 2nd turn charge and will scythe through small units of medium infantry. They are cheap but not tough so they won't survive most units attacking them. All in all they hit slightly harder than a similar sized unit of wyches while being slightly more resilient, a good supporting unit but they are not a mainstay unit.

Clawed Fiends
Now we are talking str and toughness 5, 5 attacks -2 ap and damage 2. Very punchy melee with the ability to survive light counter fire after they cream their target. As long as one model in the unit is down a wound then the unit benefits from +1 attack which is a nice touch. All in all they are pretty solid, advance will let them keep pace with the raider and they are a good candidate for webway portal.

Beasts are what they are, melee units in an army that has plenty of melee options you need to have a specific job in mind for them when you choose them.

Next time Mandrakes!
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Zenotaph
Wych
Zenotaph

Posts : 648
Join date : 2014-04-22
Location : Munich/Bavaria

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PostSubject: Re: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeWed May 19 2021, 22:13

Well, that is a question! Why and since when can a Beastmaster use tolerated ambition and has access to relics?
I know, he can, because battlescribe says so, but there is nothing about it in the Codex.

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toldavf
Hellion
toldavf

Posts : 53
Join date : 2021-05-05

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PostSubject: Re: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeWed May 19 2021, 22:37

@Zenotaph wrote:
Well, that is a question! Why and since when can a Beastmaster use tolerated ambition and has access to relics?
I know, he can, because battlescribe says so, but there is nothing about it in the Codex.

Might well be a rules mistake on my part, still new still learning.
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

Posts : 7558
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Location : London

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PostSubject: Re: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeWed May 19 2021, 23:43

The relics and Tolerated Ambition are available to DRUKHARI CHARACTERS, which the Beastmaster is. He could also be your Warlord should you so wish.

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Zenotaph
Wych
Zenotaph

Posts : 648
Join date : 2014-04-22
Location : Munich/Bavaria

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PostSubject: Re: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeWed May 19 2021, 23:59

@Count Adhemar wrote:
The relics and Tolerated Ambition are available to DRUKHARI CHARACTERS, which the Beastmaster is. He could also be your Warlord should you so wish.
Urgh... Head -> Table!!
OK, my bad. Thx for enlightening me. lol!

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sekac
Wych
sekac

Posts : 592
Join date : 2017-06-03

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PostSubject: Re: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeThu May 20 2021, 00:25

Beasts are an excellent choice....if you want to take a friendly list for games with friends. I love beasts, they just aren't worth the cost.

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commandersasha
Sybarite
commandersasha

Posts : 401
Join date : 2012-12-26
Location : Wimbledon, London

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PostSubject: Re: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeThu May 20 2021, 14:31

I feel like you have completely missed the point on Beastmasters and Beasts, so as a fan of them, here are my thoughts!
My 2K list has 7 Flocks and 5 Fiends, in my Coven. The coven always wastes its Fast Attack slots, and Beasts don't get obsessions, so you would never put them in a Cult.

My Seagulls Of Doom always deploy front and centre of my zone, with the Beastmaster just behind, then the Fiends wrapped round. If I go first, everyone advances. If I go second, and an enemy is within 20", The birds Move and Charge, the BM Advances, and casts Advance and Charge on the Fiends so they keep up.

The seagulls tie up a LOT of CC units, unless there are lots of D6 Damage weapons, although their buckets of attack dice rarely do anything.
The Fiends hit hard, really hard.

And by the end of turn 2, there is usually nothing left but the stench of burnt fur and feathers!
But in the meantime they have riven a gap in my opponent's army, he has wasted a lot of his firepower on cooking chicken, and my other "proper" units have zoomed around and started wolfpacking or abandoning plodding Eradicators with an empty table half, denying them targets.

So, in terms of what the units actually do:

Beastmasters are just the tax you pay for the Beasts. Bury her in the cluster, she is just the buff unit. In the VERY unlikely event she survives, run her away and park her out of sight on an objective, or Deploying Scrambers, Line Breaking etc.

Razorwings are a great denial and tarpit unit. Spread out they cover a huge footprint to deny Scout deployment or Deep Strike, or clustered they are still a big shield wall for the Fiends, and maybe even proper DE units.

Fiends are scary, and will do a surprising amount of damage; don't forget the extra attacks when the pack smells the blood of their own.

Khymerae don't work for me: too fragile for their limited damage output, and too slow to have a useful third roll.

Lastly, why oh why can't GW give us a Monster in this slot??? A CC only Carnifex, Squiggoth, Dragon, Hell Pit Abomination etc? Imagine how many of us would be buying premium Age Of Sigmar models if we could run it as a Rancor!
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False Son
Sybarite
False Son

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Join date : 2012-12-23

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PostSubject: Re: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeThu May 20 2021, 18:55

@commandersasha wrote:

Beastmasters are just the tax you pay for the Beasts. Bury her in the cluster, she is just the buff unit. In the VERY unlikely event she survives, run her away and park her out of sight on an objective, or Deploying Scrambers, Line Breaking etc.

Beastmasters get a bad rap. The biggest problem with them is that they are Cult units that have to be in the same detachment as Blades for Hire units. Unless you are playing a Realspace Raid army, in which case this becomes a possible asset by way of Black Heart. In a triple Patrol format you are forced to either compete with the excellent Cult units, or be placed in another Patrol and give up the Beastmaster's Obsession.

Otherwise, the Beastmaster is a sleeper. I use it with Animus Vitae and Splintermind. But, i've seen people propose some odd combinations like Cursed Blade, Traitor's Embrace and Treacherous Deceiver to turn into a flying suicide bomber, which is strangely worded to actually give the Beastmaster a 4+ invulnerable.

Quote :
Fiends are scary, and will do a surprising amount of damage; don't forget the extra attacks when the pack smells the blood of their own.

They got a sidegrade by losing a wound, but now the whole unit gets +1 for any model having lost a wound.

Quote :
Khymerae don't work for me: too fragile for their limited damage output, and too slow to have a useful third roll.

The problem is the base size. Not sure how many of you actually have Khymerae models in hand. They have the same size base as a Grot or Clawed Fiend, while being slightly better than a Wych model. They take up a huge footprint, making it hard to bring numbers against the enemy. They aren't tough, particularly fast, and are not cheap enough to spam. Also, Daemons, just in case that's a factor. Such a shame. Seems they are taking the slot traditionally held by Mandrakes for sweet looking models that are not well supported by the rules.

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Zenotaph
Wych
Zenotaph

Posts : 648
Join date : 2014-04-22
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeThu May 20 2021, 19:22

In 5th, the Kymerae were really descent. Fast, furious and they had a 4++. Its a shame, they are almost out of commision.

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commandersasha
Sybarite
commandersasha

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PostSubject: Re: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeThu May 20 2021, 20:19

Birds are tarpits. Fiends are offense. Khymerae needed a different role, so maybe they should have had 16" movement, 4++ but no real offense, to make them a super-survivable fleet unit.
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toldavf
Hellion
toldavf

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PostSubject: Re: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeThu May 20 2021, 20:37

@False Son wrote:


Otherwise, the Beastmaster is a sleeper.  I use it with Animus Vitae and Splintermind.  But, i've seen people propose some odd combinations like Cursed Blade, Traitor's Embrace and Treacherous Deceiver to turn into a flying suicide bomber, which is strangely worded to actually give the Beastmaster a 4+ invulnerable.  


Traitors embrace is locked to succubus for just that reason, a 40point model you can throw under a the bus for massive damage is too good.

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False Son
Sybarite
False Son

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PostSubject: Re: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeThu May 20 2021, 21:14

@toldavf wrote:
@False Son wrote:


Otherwise, the Beastmaster is a sleeper.  I use it with Animus Vitae and Splintermind.  But, i've seen people propose some odd combinations like Cursed Blade, Traitor's Embrace and Treacherous Deceiver to turn into a flying suicide bomber, which is strangely worded to actually give the Beastmaster a 4+ invulnerable.  


Traitors embrace is locked to succubus for just that reason, a 40point model you can throw under a the bus for massive damage is too good.

Triptych Whip being locked to Succubus for the same reason, i imagine.

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toldavf
Hellion
toldavf

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PostSubject: Re: A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters   A returning players opinions on our units; Beasts and masters I_icon_minitimeThu May 20 2021, 21:22

@False Son wrote:
@toldavf wrote:
@False Son wrote:


Otherwise, the Beastmaster is a sleeper.  I use it with Animus Vitae and Splintermind.  But, i've seen people propose some odd combinations like Cursed Blade, Traitor's Embrace and Treacherous Deceiver to turn into a flying suicide bomber, which is strangely worded to actually give the Beastmaster a 4+ invulnerable.  


Traitors embrace is locked to succubus for just that reason, a 40point model you can throw under a the bus for massive damage is too good.

Triptych Whip being locked to Succubus for the same reason, i imagine.

For sure a quick silver fighter, triptych whip BM would be a beast for 40 points. easily able to out fight any solo he encountered.
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