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 Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force?

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sekac
Wych
sekac

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Join date : 2017-06-03

Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force? Empty
PostSubject: Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force?   Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force? I_icon_minitimeTue May 18 2021, 05:18

So I wanted to create the most competitive list I could for when I play in tournaments but I just can't bring myself to net-deck. Moreover, I just like the Realspace Raiders detachment conceptually. So I wanted to start there and see what it offers. But first, here's the list John Lennon used at the Dallas GT as a point of comparison:

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [16 PL, 260pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Obsession: Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder

+ HQ +
->Succubus [4 PL, 75pts]: Competitive Edge, Dark Lotus Toxin, Razorflails, Warlord. Show Stealer (Strife): Show Stealer

+ Troops +
->Wyches [3 PL, 50pts]: 3 - Hypex (Combat Drug). Hekatrix: Hekatarii Blade, Splinter Pistol. 4x Wych
->Wyches [3 PL, 50pts]: 3 - Hypex (Combat Drug). Hekatrix: Hekatarii Blade, Splinter Pistol. 4x Wych
->Wyches [6 PL, 85pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug). Hekatrix: Agoniser, Splinter Pistol, Stratagem: Hekatrix of the Crucibael, Morvaine’s Agonizer. 7x Wych: 7x Hekatarii Blade, 7x Plasma Grenades, 7x Splinter Pistol

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [23 PL, 470pts, -2CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]

Obsession. *Custom Coven*: Dark Technomancers (All-Consuming)

+ HQ +
->Drazhar [7 PL, 135pts]

+ Troops +
->Wracks [3 PL, 60pts]. Acothyst: Liquifier Gun, Wrack Blade. Wrack w/ Special Weapon: Liquifier Gun. 3x Wracks: 3x Wrack Blade
->Wracks [3 PL, 60pts]. Acothyst: Liquifier Gun, Wrack Blade. Wrack w/ Special Weapon: Liquifier Gun. 3x Wracks: 3x Wrack Blade
->Wracks [3 PL, 60pts]. Acothyst: Liquifier Gun, Wrack Blade. Wrack w/ Special Weapon: Liquifier Gun. 3x Wracks: 3x Wrack Blade

+ Elites +
->Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]. 4x Incubi: 4x Klaive. Klaivex: Demiklaives
->Mandrakes [3 PL, 75pts]. 4x Mandrake: 4x Baleblast, 4x Glimmersteel Blade. Nightfiend

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [77 PL, 1,267pts, -4CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]

Obsession: Kabal of the Black Heart: Thirst for Power

+ No Force Org Slot +
->Court of the Archon [10 PL, 136pts]. Sslyth. Sslyth. Sslyth. Sslyth. Ur-Ghul. Ur-Ghul. Ur-Ghul. Ur-Ghul
->Court of the Archon [10 PL, 136pts]. Sslyth. Sslyth. Sslyth. Sslyth. Ur-Ghul. Ur-Ghul. Ur-Ghul. Ur-Ghul

+ HQ +
->Archon [4 PL, 65pts, -1CP]: Ancient Evil, Power sword, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition, The Helm of Spite
->Archon [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Blast Pistol, Hatred Eternal, Huskblade, Overlord, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition, The Djin Blade. Splintered Genius (Black Heart): Splintered Genius

+ Troops +
->Kabalite Trueborn [8 PL, 135pts]. 6x Kabalite Trueborn: 6x Splinter Rifle. Kabalite Trueborn w/ Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance. Kabalite Trueborn w/ Special Weapon: Blaster. Kabalite Trueborn w/ Special Weapon: Blaster. Trueborn Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
->Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle. Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
->Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle. Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Elites +
->Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]. 4x Incubi: 4x Klaive. Klaivex: Demiklaives

+ Dedicated Transport +
->Raider [5 PL, 90pts]: Dark Lance, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
->Raider [5 PL, 95pts]: Dark Lance, Splinter racks
->Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Dark Lance
->Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Dark Lance
->Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Dark Lance
->Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Dark Lance

++ Total: [116 PL, -6CP, 1,997pts] ++


This list has been pretty well dissected at this point, so there's not much more analysis I need to offer. It has all the best features of our book all rolled into one list. The core assumption of the list is 3x patrols is better than the Realspace Raiders for one reason alone: it gives more CP. However, when you spend 3CP on relics and 2CP on WL traits you're down to only 9 when the battle starts.

It relies on 2x Court of the Archon and the Trueborn to deliver an easy 10-15 points from the WWSWF secondary objective. My issue with this is twofold: if someone has the tools to deal with a court, then this list is forced to either hide both court units, or choose a backup secondary. Either way, your choices are dictated by the opponent.


With all that said, I incorporated all of the same elements, but sacrificed a little redundancy for flexibility and a couple CP for more built-in efficiency. Here's the list:


++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [97 PL, 10CP, 1,757pts] ++

Obsession: Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder, Kabal of the Black Heart: Thirst for Power, Realspace Raid
. *Custom Coven*: Dark Technomancers (All-Consuming)

+ Stratagems +

Stratagem: Alliance of Agony [-1CP]
Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City [-1CP]

+ No Force Org Slot +

Court of the Archon [10 PL, 136pts]
. 4x Sslyth
. 4x Ur-Ghul

+ HQ +

Archon [5 PL, 80pts]: Ancient Evil, Overlord, Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade, Warlord, Writ of the Living Muse
. Splintered Genius (Black Heart): Splintered Genius

Haemonculus [4 PL, 80pts]: Master Artisan, Stratagem: Alliance of Agony WLT

Succubus [3 PL, 60pts]: 1 - Adrenalight (Combat Drug), Precision Blows, Stratagem: Alliance of Agony WLT, The Triptych Whip
. Agoniser & Archite Glaive

+ Troops +

Kabalite Trueborn [8 PL, 135pts]
. 6x Kabalite Trueborn: 6x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn w/ Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. 2x Kabalite Trueborn w/ Special Weapon: Blaster
. Trueborn Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Wracks [3 PL, 60pts]
. Acothyst: Liquifier Gun, Wrack Blade
. Wrack w/ Special Weapon: Liquifier Gun
. 3x Wracks: 3x Wrack Blade
Wracks [3 PL, 60pts]
. Acothyst: Liquifier Gun, Wrack Blade
. Wrack w/ Special Weapon: Liquifier Gun
. 3x Wracks: 3x Wrack Blade
Wracks [3 PL, 60pts]
. Acothyst: Liquifier Gun, Wrack Blade
. Wrack w/ Special Weapon: Liquifier Gun
. 3x Wracks: 3x Wrack Blade
Wracks [3 PL, 60pts]
. Acothyst: Liquifier Gun, Wrack Blade
. Wrack w/ Special Weapon: Liquifier Gun
. 3x Wracks: 3x Wrack Blade

Wyches [3 PL, 55pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)
. Hekatrix: Power sword, Splinter Pistol
. 4x Wych: 4x Hekatarii Blade, 4x Plasma Grenades, 4x Splinter Pistol

+ Elites +

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Incubi: 4x Klaive
. Klaivex: Demiklaives
Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Incubi: 4x Klaive
. Klaivex: Demiklaives

Mandrakes [3 PL, 75pts]
. 4x Mandrake: 4x Baleblast, 4x Glimmersteel Blade
. Nightfiend
Mandrakes [3 PL, 75pts]
. 4x Mandrake: 4x Baleblast, 4x Glimmersteel Blade
. Nightfiend

+ Fast Attack +

Scourges [8 PL, 156pts]
. 3x Scourge w/ shardcarbine: 3x Plasma Grenades, 3x Shardcarbine
. 4x Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

Scourges [5 PL, 60pts]
. 4x Scourge w/ shardcarbine: 4x Plasma Grenades, 4x Shardcarbine
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Dark Lance, Kabal
Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Dark Lance, Kabal
Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Dark Lance, Kabal
Raider [5 PL, 95pts]: Coven, Disintegrator Cannon, Grisly Trophies
Raider [5 PL, 95pts]: Coven, Disintegrator Cannon, Grisly Trophies

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [13 PL, -3CP, 240pts] ++

Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]

Obsession: Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder (Restricted)

+ HQ +

Drazhar [7 PL, 135pts]

+ Troops +

Wyches [6 PL, -1CP, 105pts]: 2 - Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)
. Hekatrix: Agoniser, Morvaines's Agoniser, Splinter Pistol, Stratagem: Hekatrix of the Crucibael
. 9x Wych: 9x Hekatarii Blade, 9x Plasma Grenades, 9x Splinter Pistol

++ Total: [110 PL, 7CP, 1,997pts] ++

There's a lot to take in here so I'll highlight the differences and why I made the choices I did.

What you lose from the meta list:
-Djinn Blade Archon
-2nd Court of the Archon
-2 Squads of 5 Kabalites
-3 Wyches
-1 Raider
-2 CP

What you gain from the change:
-Tanky Haemonculus
-8 Scourges with 4 Dark Lances
-Squad of DT wracks
-5 more mandrakes
-5 naked scourges
-Re-roll 1s to hit aura for all core units
-Re-roll 1s to wound aura for all Blades for Hire units

The only downgrade in those 2 lists is the swap from the beatstick Archon to the Haemonculus.

In the mirror match, I'd expect list 2 to win at least 7/10 games, if not 8/10. It has the first list outclassed in several areas. Basically, whoever loses their Raiders first is going to be at a big disadvantage. List 2 is better at killing Raiders than list 1. It's spike is much higher and it's average is higher too. List 1 has no answer for the scourges because it can only really deal with infantry in combat, or by exposing the Trueborn (which is a bad idea).

Which brings me to secondary objectives. If both lists take WWSWF, then they have Trueborn and 1 Court in common. List 1 has second court and list 2 has the scourges. List 2 also has several answers for the court. Disintegrators are the most efficient way to deal with them, and grisly trophies expose their main weakness, leadership. They're only Ld 7, and grislies drop them to 5. Killing 2-3 of them makes them very likely to fail and lose multi-wound models. To preserve secondary points, hiding them and just playing with points down. Meanwhile, scourges and stay away from the fray and still project their influence onto the battle.

Beyond that, list 2 is better setup for both Deploy Scramblers and Engage on All Fronts due to having faster infantry and with deep strike options.

This list just has a lot more synergies and a more adaptive playstyle. Need to leverage Incubi? Grisly Trophies makes their tormentors much better and the Writ makes them as punchy as can be. Also Drazhar is Blades for Hire, so the Writ affects him, it's like having half of Hatred Eternal. Need to leverage wyches? Archon gives them re-roll 1s to hit, and the succubus gives them re-roll 1s to wound. Need to leverage wracks? Send 2 Raiders full with a Haemonculus to make them T5 when the raider inevitably pops.

If they ever FAQ out the 14 CP from triple patrols, list 2 is just flat-out better.

Let me know what you think!
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fisheyes
Incubi
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force?   Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force? I_icon_minitimeTue May 18 2021, 13:59

I like troops in our codex. Yes, you are able to fit more DT wracks, but it does cost you a lot of our competitively priced Obsec units.

The re-rolls just didnt affect much in the 2 games I played with RSR, but that could have been my inexperience (first 2 games I played with the new codex).

Why dont you take it for a spin a few times and let us know? Codex is only a month old, Im sure there are still gems in there people have not yet discovered.
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Fremen
Hellion
Fremen

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PostSubject: Re: Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force?   Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force? I_icon_minitimeTue May 18 2021, 16:42

Can someone explain how this trick with Court and WWSWF works?

_________________
Mood? What has mood to do with it? You fight when the necessity arises — no matter the mood! Mood's a thing for cattle or making love or playing the baliset. It's not for fighting.


Last edited by Fremen on Tue May 18 2021, 16:48; edited 1 time in total
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HERO
Hekatrix
HERO

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PostSubject: Re: Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force?   Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force? I_icon_minitimeTue May 18 2021, 16:46

In my games, you have combats going on all over the place and contesting objectives. The aura is great, but it hardly comes into play since you only get one of him.

I really like the extra CP that 3P gives, but I can definitely see RSR as an option. Most likely they will take the nerfbat to DT Wracks, then maybe then will POF Vexator masks or DC shenningans get some competitive limelight.

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force?   Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force? I_icon_minitimeTue May 18 2021, 16:57

@Fremen wrote:
Can someone explain how this trick with Court and WWSWF works?
I suppose with Trick, you mean using the Court to score with WWSWF?

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HERO
Hekatrix
HERO

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PostSubject: Re: Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force?   Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force? I_icon_minitimeTue May 18 2021, 16:59

Btw @sekac Smile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOzgPrtVEfQ

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Fremen
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Fremen

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PostSubject: Re: Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force?   Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force? I_icon_minitimeTue May 18 2021, 17:01

@Zenotaph wrote:
@Fremen wrote:
Can someone explain how this trick with Court and WWSWF works?
I suppose with Trick, you mean using the Court to score with WWSWF?

Just like that? I thought there was someting more behind it ;P

_________________
Mood? What has mood to do with it? You fight when the necessity arises — no matter the mood! Mood's a thing for cattle or making love or playing the baliset. It's not for fighting.
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sekac
Wych
sekac

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PostSubject: Re: Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force?   Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force? I_icon_minitimeTue May 18 2021, 17:45

@Fremen wrote:
@Zenotaph wrote:
@Fremen wrote:
Can someone explain how this trick with Court and WWSWF works?
I suppose with Trick, you mean using the Court to score with WWSWF?

Just like that? I thought there was someting more behind it ;P

Nope, it's just a toolbox unit. Hard to shift, can soak smite, doesn't need to engage but is pretty effective when it does. Hard counter to Incubi in the mirror match. But I just don't like the idea of hiding both squads if someone does have a counter to them. Scourges can hang out of most threat ranges and still affect the battlefield.

@HERO wrote:
In my games, you have combats going on all over the place and contesting objectives. The aura is great, but it hardly comes into play since you only get one of him.

I really like the extra CP that 3P gives, but I can definitely see RSR as an option. Most likely they will take the nerfbat to DT Wracks, then maybe then will POF Vexator masks or DC shenningans get some competitive limelight.

You might be right about the aura, more testing is needed. But if I find it unnecessary, I can drop it and go up to 8 CP, only 1 less than the 3 patrols. I still think the PfP boost to mandrakes and Incubi, as well as re-roll 1s to hit aura being more useful depending on opponent and game state. That's a lot to gain for 1 CP.
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Zenotaph
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force?   Is Realspace Raiders better than the meta Raiding Force? I_icon_minitimeWed May 19 2021, 10:42

@Fremen wrote:
@Zenotaph wrote:
@Fremen wrote:
Can someone explain how this trick with Court and WWSWF works?
I suppose with Trick, you mean using the Court to score with WWSWF?

Just like that? I thought there was someting more behind it ;P

You'll find your answer here! Very Happy

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