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 A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos

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duckduckgoose
Burnage
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toldavf
Hellion
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PostSubject: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 22:47

Named after the titans of old our monstrous heavy supports are certainly very interesting units. Lets take a look...

Chronos pain engine
Relatively cheap for its stat block it's a great starting block, for just a few more points you can have access to a great flamer and a good blast weapon. Having 1d6 hits and then 1d6 shots both at str5 and -2 save with a possibility to jump up to damage 2 is great damage.

In melee they are a very interesting unit, as a buff bot they allow nearby core/character units to re-roll 1's to wound which is a very solid buff and since they are core it applies to them too!.

The spirit-leech tentacles are where things really become interesting though and they are what allow the Chronos to do it's real job. For every model the Chronos kills in melee you can heal a core unit within 6 inches or if the unit has no undamaged models you can return a model to life. If taken cheaply a 210 point unit can stay in the fight a long time against anything that isn't wielding lots of power fists or the equivalent. Things that will struggle to wound them will never kill them in melee and at toughness 6, 3+ armour a 6+invun and +5 fnp that's a big list of things.

They also have their own stratagem which lets a unit nearby units jump right to level 5 power from pain for the rest of the battle. That's a really serious buff!.

The Talos
Our dreadnaught analog, it's kind of versatile it has access to allot of different load outs. It's hard hitting if somewhat inaccurate luckily all of its guns come in banks of 2(well except the stinger pod). Depending on what you want it to kill a Talos can be given a loadout to match.

Vehicles/monsters the heat lance or haywire blaster are good options with the heat lance being the most reliable. Splinter cannons are good vs MEQ and stinger pods let you advance and spray light infantry.

In melee you come with 2 macro scalpels for 7 attacks and MEQ slaying madness with options to swap one or both for other weapons. The gauntlet lets you hit tougher targets like gravis or vehicles you loose some attacks but get a good return in damage for it I think, nobody likes the threat of damage 3 vs their most expensive models. In the same slot you can instead slot the chain flail a weapon that lets you double up your attacks, it doesn't have the same hitting power as the other melee options here but it does allow for a unit of Talos to throw out 30 strength 6 attacks which is kinda scary throw enough of that at a brick wall and it will stick. The last weapon options are the twin liquefier gun you are all aware of (DT madness) even without DT its still great, and the ichor injector a personal favorite d3 mortal wounds on a hit, even though you can only make 1 attack with it it hits on 2+ after turn 3 or if you are dark creed with a trophy raider near by.

So coven synergy wise there's allot of obsessions that buff both monsters, dark creed helps with accuracy and for 3 cp you can ignore look out sir, 6 heat lances at a character is scary, and the Chronos shooting can just put him out with weight of fire. The coven of twelves bonus ap help make wounds stick.

As for other covens artists of flesh can force your opponent to allocate their lascannons to your Talos/Chronos rather than their other lighter guns, even power fists loose allot of their hitting power. Experimental creations add one to the strength of both models which is a good general purpose buff. Master tortures' lets them reroll to wound for free in melee and my favorite spliterblades, Double hits on 6's works really well with the ichor injector 2d3 mortals is pretty rough.

Both units really preform in their roles very well, it's interesting how well they designed they are if I wasn't planning of running full kabal/BFH they would defiantly be allot of fun to field.

Those are all my thoughts on these units for now, things might become more interesting if coven gets an expansion.

Next up the Ravager.
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Padaxes
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 13 2021, 17:11

I'm taking a unit of three Talos for a small friendly tournament that will contain Death guard, Primaris and Aeldari, can't decide on my loadout though, I'm currently leaning towards chainflails and ichor injector with heat lances. Prophets of Flesh. Thoughts?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 13 2021, 20:08

The big thing you're missing with Cronos is how effective Dark Technomancers makes their shooting. S5 with a possibility of D2 is one thing, +1 to wound with a reliable D2 and the possibility of D3 makes them really strong. They're not quite as efficient as Wracks with Liquifiers were pre-nerf, but it's still a serious boost for them.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 13 2021, 20:17

DT Wracks were waaaaaay beyond efficient. Im glad, that time is over...

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duckduckgoose
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 14 2021, 06:23

@Burnage wrote:
The big thing you're missing with Cronos is how effective Dark Technomancers makes their shooting. S5 with a possibility of D2 is one thing, +1 to wound with a reliable D2 and the possibility of D3 makes them really strong. They're not quite as efficient as Wracks with Liquifiers were pre-nerf, but it's still a serious boost for them.

I agree DT cronos as strong, but they don’t go up to damage 3 on 6’s to wound. The weapon goes up to damage 2 on 6’s to wound, it’s not a flat +1 damage. buff, so if everything is already damage 2 then it doesn’t work. That’s how I read the rule though.

I generally run a unit of 3 though. They are a decent fire magnet, and also a threat, especially if you can get them within 12”. Their pain siphon ability is kinda meh, just cause their melee sucks so they rarely kill anything in melee. But with DT it means you never wound on less than a 5+, so you can threaten even high toughness units. And against hordes or MEQ they are deadly
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 14 2021, 09:04

@duckduckgoose wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
The big thing you're missing with Cronos is how effective Dark Technomancers makes their shooting. S5 with a possibility of D2 is one thing, +1 to wound with a reliable D2 and the possibility of D3 makes them really strong. They're not quite as efficient as Wracks with Liquifiers were pre-nerf, but it's still a serious boost for them.

I agree DT cronos as strong, but they don’t go up to damage 3 on 6’s to wound. The weapon goes up to damage 2 on 6’s to wound, it’s not a flat +1 damage. buff, so if everything is already damage 2 then it doesn’t work. That’s how I read the rule though.

When you activate DT, you give +1 to wound and +1 to damage to the enhanced weapon until the end of the phase - so if you roll a 6 to wound, the damage of the Cronos' weapon is a flat 2, and then you add the +1 damage modifier from DT which is still present. I don't think that's a misinterpretation of the wording but I'll admit that there's not exactly been an explicit FAQ to clarify this.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 14 2021, 12:30

@Burage is correct, DT gives you a flat +1 to damage. Doesnt matter if your damage profile is 1, 2, 3+D3, etc.

Chronos are certainly very powerful in the DT Coven. There is a reason that they are in many top lists.

However, IMO Talos dont benefit as much. Their BS4 really hurts, since they cant really land enough shots to make it worthwile. Chronos get their flamers to auto hit, bypassing their poor BS.

PoF Talos are interesting, but I wouldent pick that Coven if you are primarily Talos based. PoF are really great when your running Wracks and Haemonculus. The "mini-transhuman" works on weapons with S7 and lower, and those same weapons are generally already wounding you on 4s. There are certainly some edge cases that it affects (poison 2+, or +1 to wound abilities), but those are not present in every match. The ability to regain 1 wound is nice, but again not really strong enough to build around.

The current theory is that Talos are best in a Artists of the Flesh detatchment (-1 damage). They are awesome when those pesky plasma 2 damage weapons are suddenly half effective.

What does the rest of your list look like? That would affect our advice.
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duckduckgoose
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 14 2021, 15:14

Spirit siphon reads:

Each time an attack is made with this weapon, that attack automatically hits the target. Each time an attack is made with this weapon, on an unmodified wound roll of 6, that attack has a Damage characteristic of 2.

So to me that mean DT doesn’t boost to D 3 on 6s. Spirit vortex is the same, but it doesn’t auto hit. Though now that I’m reading it again, I see your point. If it’s base D 2 and DT gives plus one then maybe it does go to D 3…
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 14 2021, 15:40

It 100% goes to damage 3.

Doesnt mean you need to play that way. If your playing in your buddies garage, no need to go hyper competitive.

But expect to see this if your in a Competitive Tournament setting.

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duckduckgoose
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 14 2021, 15:42

Thanks for the clarification!
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Wrack_Enthusiast
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 14 2021, 18:15

I intend on running two units of three Talos pain engines by the time I'm done with my army. They're such great models. I'm glad their coolness is reflected on the table. That ichor injector they have is disgusting, but in the best possible way.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 15 2021, 16:16

Oh ya. Plus they have that sweet Fly keyword, which allows for some fun interactions (it allows you to MOVE over buildings and models, but you cannot CHARGE over buildings).

I ran some rough numbers to see if the humble Talos could punch an AdMech plane out of the sky (because of that sweet Fly keyword). Unfortunately even in the best scenario a Talos is doing less than 6 wounds of damage, so I would not recommend relying on that strategy.
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Padaxes
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 19 2021, 12:47

@fisheyes wrote:
@Burage is correct, DT gives you a flat +1 to damage. Doesnt matter if your damage profile is 1, 2, 3+D3, etc.

Chronos are certainly very powerful in the DT Coven. There is a reason that they are in many top lists.

However, IMO Talos dont benefit as much. Their BS4 really hurts, since they cant really land enough shots to make it worthwile. Chronos get their flamers to auto hit, bypassing their poor BS.

PoF Talos are interesting, but I wouldent pick that Coven if you are primarily Talos based. PoF are really great when your running Wracks and Haemonculus. The "mini-transhuman" works on weapons with S7 and lower, and those same weapons are generally already wounding you on 4s. There are certainly some edge cases that it affects (poison 2+, or +1 to wound abilities), but those are not present in every match. The ability to regain 1 wound is nice, but again not really strong enough to build around.

The current theory is that Talos are best in a Artists of the Flesh detatchment (-1 damage). They are awesome when those pesky plasma 2 damage weapons are suddenly half effective.

What does the rest of your list look like? That would affect our advice.

Im taking a realspace raid with 10 Trueborn, 10 wracks, 10 wyches. 2 x 5 Incubi, 10 hellions , 6 reavers, 5 haywire scourges, a ravager and 3 raiders. Using Obsidean Rose kabal and Cursed Blade. Haemonculus gets helm of spite, Soulhelm for the Archon and Triptych whip, -3 cps as I using aliance of agony too.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 19 2021, 15:15

No Bloodbribes and Haemoxytes?

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Padaxes
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeYesterday at 09:35

@Zenotaph wrote:
No Bloodbribes and Haemoxytes?

No I couldn't get them in within the points.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeYesterday at 13:03

Hmmm, IMHO Helm of Spite is a trap. Most psykic reliant armies have +1 to cast and other abilities to make their powers incredibly hard to deny. We are honestly better off just relying on the 5+ FNP and going more into the killy aspect of our army.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos   A returning players oppions on our units; Talos/Chronos I_icon_minitimeYesterday at 15:50

I tried it once. I wouldnt say, its completely useless, but its at least mostly useless.
I think, when giving your Haemi a relic, try the Nightmare Doll, or the Animus Vitae.

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