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Zenotaph
Wych
Zenotaph

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PostSubject: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeFri May 07 2021, 16:56

Well, everybody is talking about the new Codex. And hell, there are lots and lots of things to talk about.
For me, the new Dex is kinda like a revelation of Drukhari, as they are meant to be: Fast&Furious...
OK, there are things to discuss, some bugs and glitches and also the usual rants.
Yesterday I read my old ones. 3rd, 5th, 7th and 8th. And one thing in particular came to my mind:
Customizing my Archon. Is it just me, or do we get fewer and fewer options with every new edition?
To be fair: Not only the Archon. And here is my point:

I really miss personalizing (is this really a word?) my HQ. No Ghostplatearmor, no Soultrap, no, well, nasty tricks.
Is this a trend in all new Codices, or is this ESE specific? And what do you guys miss?

Dont get me wrong, I dont want to rant, by no means. Its more like a nostalgic look down memory lane.

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeFri May 07 2021, 17:14

i'm fairly new to the game, so i can't go down memory lane, but indeed some customization would be more than welcome, and not just for the Archon, but the Haemonculus too (the succubus already have some custom options, not a lot, but already have some).

Now that our HQs can go with their troops in a Transport (be it a Raider or Venom), i don't think we really need options like jetpack or biker Archon anymore, but their arsenal could get some love indeed.

For my part, the only thing i truly wish for is a stratagem allowing us to disembark AFTER the actual transport made his move.....i still don't fully understand the Murderous Decent stratagem.....i mean, why would you want to disembark after the transport is being setup in the Reinforcement Step? Why not just put the units inside the transport already in reinforcement and deploy them?
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeFri May 07 2021, 19:38

What I miss the most is the fluff. The 9th edition codex was actually SMALLER than the 8th.

Back in 8th they added in the whole dysjunction/Chasm of Woe, about how the deamons were running rampant thru the dark city, and the Deldar find a "solution" that is just awesomely Deldar.

Really disapointed they did not expand on it in 9th. Barely a mention of it at all (I found one sentence referencing it in the whole book).

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeFri May 07 2021, 19:53

Jup, they really were stingy with the fluff. The least, I had expected, was the rise of Vect.
And Aurelia Malys was merely a footnote. That truely was disappointing...

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Vailex
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeFri May 07 2021, 20:02

The main reason why you see fewer options with a lot of units these days is because they want the rules to match the models. Its more of a business decision than a rules design decision. There are some exceptions with things like the older marine range and this is mainly a nod to us as we probably converted the crap out of them. But you notice all new units are locked into what is physically in the box.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeFri May 07 2021, 20:04

I know, right? I figured the fluff had been moved over to Warzone Campaign book.

I was disappointed XD
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toldavf
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toldavf

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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeFri May 07 2021, 20:49

Ah memory lane....

Lilith with an agoniser! imagine how useful she could be with some poison!

Strength 7 ap2 blast weapons on our raiders and ravagers.

Archons who were top tier melee lords and super customizable.

The night field that made me 6 inches further away (amazing melta gun defense)

Destructors the flamers of pain.

2 heavy weapons per troop choice (really miss this, I understand why its gone but still)

Wyches the ultimate tar pit.

It was a very strong book in it's day.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeSat May 08 2021, 17:59

I have a list. Just some names, but maybe someone remembers:
Asdrubael Vect
Aurelia Malys
Traevelliath Sliscus
Baron Sathonyx
Kheradruakh

The last 2 hadnt have (or so...) any surname.
But I really miss them. Erradicated, just because no one wanted to sculpt them... Sad

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeSat May 08 2021, 19:33

@Zenotaph wrote:
I have a list. Just some names, but maybe someone remembers:
Asdrubael Vect
Aurelia Malys
Traevelliath Sliscus
Baron Sathonyx
Kheradruakh

The last 2 hadnt have (or so...) any surname.
But I really miss them. Erradicated, just because no one wanted to sculpt them... Sad

Someone did. He just doesn't work for GW!

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeSat May 08 2021, 19:54

I've seen the Sathonyx, made of Resin. He truely looked great.
I also have seen the Sliscus, made by Phil Kelley. Pictures are in the Crusade of Fire supplemental book.

But thats not my point, as you obviously know.

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KiriONE
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 01:33

Laughing about when Orb of Despair went from S10 to S1 and it wasn't a typo lol

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 14:28

@Zenotaph wrote:
I've seen the Sathonyx, made of Resin. He truely looked great.
I also have seen the Sliscus, made by Phil Kelley. Pictures are in the Crusade of Fire supplemental book.

But thats not my point, as you obviously know.

Do you have any links to those?
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 16:01

I am sorry. That was years ago. I doubt, they still exist. A friend has the campaign book somewhere,
so I might get a photo of Phil Kellys Sliscus, but the Baron got totally lost, I think.

Edit: I found a picture!!!

The things we miss... Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQy_Vjg2VjLSdfQS0IxbKJ8FbSpZK_6aBjVKYbWXvR4aJHceDGF&s

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toldavf
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 16:19

This thread has made me quite melancholy about what could of been. 2 codex's and no new units designed/sculpted and some of the units we did get 2 books ago have been folded into our troops. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 30 2021, 18:09

Hmm, did anyone miss the Soultrap? I really would like to have it again. Not the Strat. The equipment.
Kill the enemy Charakter or Monster = double your strenght. Or later: every LP taken = +1 S.
It was a great item to have. Oh, and it was the left hand item on the miniature, before it was revamped.
Revamped btw in more than one meaning. The new one looks like a daylight vamp. Ready to fit in his coffin...

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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 30 2021, 20:25

Honestly, never used the Soul Trap.

My favourite unit from 7th was the Dark Artesian. Haemonculus, talos and a cronos all in one unit, that generally deep striked right next to the enemy. So hard to kill.

But the main thing I miss is the lack of Strategems. They have made the game so complex, its hard to know what the other guy can do. Back in 8th, there were only a few decent ones in each faction, now there are a dozen. So difficult to keep track of...
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 30 2021, 20:40

You never played 3rd to 5th edition? Oh boy! There were pages with universal special rules,
like nightvision, eternal warrior, fall back, move through cover, use cover, ignore wounds, etc etc etc.
Then almost every Codex had its own special rules not found in the BRB. Then there were the templates.
Lets just say between 3rd and 9th they streamlined the rules and then made the game different complex. Razz

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toldavf
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 30 2021, 22:28

Eternal warrior was one of the worst rules ever added. It Made people overly reliant on characters to win.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 30 2021, 23:18

And Asdrubael Vect didnt have it. I lost count of the times he got insta killed after twelve or thirteen times.
One should think, a 240pts single Charakter would have it, beeing the big boss and all, but no!!! Not him. Drazhar did.

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toldavf
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 01 2021, 01:52

@Zenotaph wrote:
And Asdrubael Vect didnt have it. I lost count of the times he got insta killed after twelve or thirteen times.
One should think, a 240pts single Charakter would have it, beeing the big boss and all, but no!!! Not him. Drazhar did.

I have to say that the system of larger wound pools and multi damage guns are just plain better than lascannons and lasguns doing the same damage.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 02 2021, 09:37

I do miss biker Archons, though I accept that the lore has changed since, but now think that at the very least there should be Reaver of Hellion HQ choices. Succubus bikers make sense.
Yeah, in the end it comes down to customizing HQs to me. I miss having the options to make my leader my own.
I also miss the Decapitator. I've loved him since 3e, and really want him back.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 02 2021, 15:34

Add me to the list of people who miss being able to properly customise HQs. Partially because I miss the personalisation factor but also because I miss being able to make HQs that could fulfil different roles.

For example, back in 7th I liked having a Blaster Archon leading a squad of Trueborn. Maybe he'd get out and do some melee at some point but in the meantime he'd just add a BS7 Blaster.

Likewise, in 5th through to 7th I'd often use a Haemonculus with a Hexrifle and take pot-shots at enemy characters. Was he amazing? No, because the Hexrifle was a crap weapon. But he wasn't very expensive and I enjoyed having that option.

Another thing I liked was, back in 5th, having 2-3 of the Mini-Haemonculi, each with either a one-shot weapon or just a liquifier gun, and spreading them around my other squads. It gave that squad FNP from the get-go whilst also adding some flexibility.

But now we're basically stuck with the same role for every HQ. Want a Succubus? She has to be melee (and can't have a Reaver Jetbike or Skyboard, nor buff Beasts in any way). Okay. Want a Haemonculus? He has to be melee - no more sniping or even firing a flamer at the enemy. Want an Archon? Guess what, he has to be melee, too. Boy, what a thrilling lineup of characters.  

On a similar note, I also miss our army feeling like a single, cohesive force. For example, I much preferred being able to attach a Haemonculus being able to buff any squad - not just specifically Coven ones (I also much preferred characters joining squads, rather than all being aura-buffbots but that's not really a DE problem).

This goes with the whole customisation problem because it means our options end up being much more restricted than those of other armies. e.g. we might have more Warlord Traits overall but our individual HQs only get 3 base choices (Strife supplement notwithstanding), whereas other races' HQs have 6 base. It's a similar story with artefacts. There are 11 base artefacts available to a Canoness, whilst an Archon gets to pick from just 4. Even if you include the Master artefact, that's still less than half of what the Canoness gets. And even with his Master artefact, the poor Haemonculus still has only 4 to choose from.

Similarly, an Archon has just one Master pathway with a single rule that only helps a single build (that being melee). Contrast that with the SoB equivalent, where a Canoness has 6 different Master paths to choose from, each benefitting different builds or playstyles.

What I'm getting at is that, intentionally or not, the manner in which our book has been split seems to be significantly reducing our options, relative to other books. If we had more stuff to begin with it might not be as noticeable but with 3 generic HQs, all now locked into a single subfaction and all basically locked into the same playstyle, I find myself really feeling the lack of choice on offer.

I'm sure some people here prefer the current format but I'd much prefer we went back to working as a single army.

***

As for special characters, I'm of the opinion that I'd much prefer we got some more generic HQs before getting back our special characters. Partially because a pet peeve of mine is when a particular type of HQ only exists as a Special Character.

I like The Decapitator but I don't want him to be the sole option for anyone wanting a Mandrake HQ. Same goes for Baron Sathonyx - I like the guy but he shouldn't be the sole option for anyone wanting a mobile/skyboard HQ. IMO there's already too much focus on special characters in 40k without locking certain armies or playstyles behind them (same reason I hate the Ynnari rules).

In terms of past editions, I do agree that Vect not having Eternal Warrior was a little absurd. But then, I was equally surprised that he was just using a regular Shadowfield. I'd think his would at least become a 4++ or something when it failed. Neutral

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 02 2021, 17:57

Hexrifle in 5th was cool. Do 1 damage with it and hope your opponent throws a bad dice against bis lifepoint value.

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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 02 2021, 19:10

@Zenotaph wrote:
Hexrifle in 5th was cool. Do 1 damage with it and hope your opponent throws a bad dice against bis lifepoint value.

Yeah, the odds of it actually working weren't great but the idea was fun and it let a backfield Haemonculus to contribute to the battle while holding an objective or whatever.

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PostSubject: Re: The things we miss...   The things we miss... I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 02 2021, 19:37

And it was absolutely hillarious, when it worked on the real big guys like a Trygon... lol!

I remember my first 1000pts match against a good friends craftworlds eldar. 5th Codex was just released.
It took me less than half an hour to completely table him. I still dont know, who was the more surprised.

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