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Count Adhemar
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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 19:42

Moved from original thread as it turned into a rules debate - Count Adhemar

Ah, interesting. Though had I known that at the time, the outcome would have been similar. He didnt kill my troops on the point until his second turn, so he would still have failed to get obsec, and his troops would have battered against my archon's shadowfield and likely been slaughtered in his fight phase anyway. Unless he fell back, but that would have taken them in the wrong direction.

I will remember though. Though, was that in the FAQ? The ability says I need to be in engagement range of a unit at the end of the fight phase, which after consolidation, I was.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 19:53

@albions-angel wrote:
Ah, interesting. Though had I known that at the time, the outcome would have been similar. He didnt kill my troops on the point until his second turn, so he would still have failed to get obsec, and his troops would have battered against my archon's shadowfield and likely been slaughtered in his fight phase anyway. Unless he fell back, but that would have taken them in the wrong direction.

I will remember though. Though, was that in the FAQ? The ability says I need to be in engagement range of a unit at the end of the fight phase, which after consolidation, I was.

Yeah, that was my understanding too. The ability specifically says "if this model is in engagement range of any enemy units it can fight again"

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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 22:58

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@albions-angel wrote:
Ah, interesting. Though had I known that at the time, the outcome would have been similar. He didnt kill my troops on the point until his second turn, so he would still have failed to get obsec, and his troops would have battered against my archon's shadowfield and likely been slaughtered in his fight phase anyway. Unless he fell back, but that would have taken them in the wrong direction.

I will remember though. Though, was that in the FAQ? The ability says I need to be in engagement range of a unit at the end of the fight phase, which after consolidation, I was.

Yeah, that was my understanding too. The ability specifically says "if this model is in engagement range of any enemy units it can fight again"

You can fight again as you meet the requirements for the ability, however you cannot make any attacks as per the fight phase rules there are no eligible targets.

page 230 core rules: • If the attacking unit made a charge move this turn, its models can
only target units it declared a charge against this turn, or units
that performed a Heroic Intervention this turn.

So if you Declare a charge in the charge phase those targets are the only eligible units you can target in the fight phase unless your opponent Heroics into you.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 09:32

Good point. Just checked the rare rules section and it confirms what you have said.

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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 11:19

So, you charge a 5 man squad, kill it, consolidate and cant fight again, because you only charged that one single unit?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 12:06

@Zenotaph wrote:
So, you charge a 5 man squad, kill it, consolidate and cant fight again, because you only charged that one single unit?

Essentially, yes.

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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 12:17

Fight twice abilities Screen10

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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 12:44

Fight twice abilities 4K9r8qW1GxtFqNBQpFycjgUiv3oQrL2cAjraOQue-vVRzk0PXRRJgYjd1olrgv-U_e2WXEuL1oT8cXRNQMPTj33RL5rQy5fohkeh66EQxgcC_BP9QbQtJ_Men-oHnVjjnzxN3npkiBLfn5Au8ANqKV23qXTrv1XXKvXBT5RkXA_VadMdbd7Wnud1zIBf_NExWdlkS8jtZn5NedOQduBtEsz6J3Ocp6ph8zyTNZ3rQNmQr9FvkWcfYrFGUckW45fAfg14v5budmxq8B8LeJurpg1n38aul0_mJDsJcEGu_OznKnm3X9uFb93d8jIuvue0wMn__48d35NPS1yAL6dzFVrFvjLA4qFtpZBIQi-KAZKcrEArqiBWNfmSI2tBaQANLumeu1TNkzLTcjEoZ1Stmf5fyukpoF6XBKdClzKl6eeWsBS4ZieTl4Dt34KGCXZA-WHsHLqVfknRuNfYaoGz9-ry5safT5oPSYPAwKy4nknCRseF1WxcLimLiRG3l1y7mSrcA0gbpY5Xhvl9k5wnlX_jTQAMwDfU7W29zCbskka8ciU6I6L1Kq0VVZPrAKcgXavktwMQK8MFfp_1IDQL6YcXw7ryks4ERS0o1nPxoKQHapbCa2DvRSEhzMFB9bxs1_elKnEtqYiWnmUMBy9neoRWDJnLT4gfBcK-O7vVd5Yv8gANGQFpVmJJSoZs_TOZqHBM9oeXQa1BnwbrgKrDSx8=w688-h472-no?authuser=0

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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 12:50

Is it just me, or is anybody else seeing a contradiction here?

Edit: I agree, with attacking only the charged unit until it is finished.
After that, you should be able to fight against another Unit within Engagement range.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 12:55

@Zenotaph wrote:
Is it just me, or is anybody else seeing a contradiction here?

Edit: I agree, with attacking only the charged unit until it is finished.
After that, you should be able to fight against another Unit within Engagement range.

I agree, and that's how I thought it worked but the rare rules section seems to say otherwise.

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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 13:01

On the other side, you cant fight a unit that was destroyed. Well, sometimes I really want to, especially Repentias...
So, it seems to me, that wasnt intended, was it? Is it just bad spelling?

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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 13:32

Fight twice abilities Screen11

I just found that here!

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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 14:44

The first pic you posted was the fight phase overview, giving a general description of everything that happens during the phase including everything that effects both players. They right these sections in a weird non standard (academic?) way. Normally it should be Overview - Specifics (Rules) - Summary, but they seem to combine the Overview and the Summary together before the rules which just leads to confusion because you are summarizing the rules before you say what the rules are.

The big takeaway from this is that they need to hire Technical writers and or editors to finalize their rules.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 14:56

Apologies to @albions-angel for derailing his thread!

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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 14:56

But in the enemies fight phase, when I flattened a unit and then reconsolidated in Engagement Range of another unit,
Then I can fight again. After all, no charge declared, but within range. Or am I missing something?

Edit:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Apologies to @albions-angel for derailing his thread!
My apologies as well! But you have to admit, its an interesting topic.

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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 15:27

It does make the archon fight twice ability (which is specifically a "fight at the end of the phase" ability) extremely niche. Outside of a couple of armies, archons are pretty good at wiping out whatever they fight in one set of attacks.

But I cant argue with the rules. Thats what it says. I will have a chat with my friends and see how they want to run this (its not like we are using tournament rules after all!).

And even before it was moved, I dont see this as a derailment. Point of order was made for how I used the rules as laid out in the battle report. Seems natural to carry it on until we are all comfortable with it. Its what forums are for after all. Also seems sensible to move it over to here.
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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 19:07

I could see the Archon fight twice being ok/decent on most game, but knocking it out of the park in a couple. Gravis armor is a prime example of two fights being necessary to ensure the unit is dead.

And heroic intervention is handy.
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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 14:45

@Zenotaph wrote:
But in the enemies fight phase, when I flattened a unit and then reconsolidated in Engagement Range of another unit,
Then I can fight again. After all, no charge declared, but within range. Or am I missing something?

You would be correct, which is why charging into us with our plethora of fight last effects is so terrifying. You really want to shoot us to death.
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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeFri May 21 2021, 14:00

Hello. found this post and thought maybe someone can help me with a related question.

What about a super archon with Splintered Genius & Ancient Evil?
it says that he can fight again in the end of the fight phase, but ancient says the target unit can't fight until everyone else has fought.

which one supersedes the other?
thanks

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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeFri May 21 2021, 17:01

@LSK wrote:
Hello. found this post and thought maybe someone can help me with a related question.

What about a super archon with Splintered Genius & Ancient Evil?
it says that he can fight again in the end of the fight phase, but ancient says the target unit can't fight until everyone else has fought.

which one supersedes the other?
thanks

The Archon fights at the End of the Phase so he would strike after the unit he made ineligible to fight until others have fought.

Note that ineligible to fight rules do not actually change the timing of when they attack, simply the timing relative to your attackers. For instance, say your Cult of strife wyches (with always strike first) are engaged in combat with a unit and another enemy unit charges in, and your Archon heroically intervenes and marks the chargers to fight after. The order of attacks would be:

1) wyches (always strike first)
2) Archon (first non-charging unit of inactive player)
3) Chargers (always strike first, but not eligible until DE units are done)
4) Other unit engaged with wyches (first non-charging unitnof active player)
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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeSat May 22 2021, 06:55

@sekac wrote:

1) wyches (always strike first)
2) Archon (first non-charging unit of inactive player)
3) Chargers (always strike first, but not eligible until DE units are done)
4) Other unit engaged with wyches (first non-charging unitnof active player)

thank you sekac

and
5) then Archon again (splintered genius) in the very end of the fight phase.
correct?

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PostSubject: Re: Fight twice abilities   Fight twice abilities I_icon_minitimeSat May 22 2021, 11:15

And 1) is a Cult of Stryfe Obsession, not a Wych specific special rule.

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