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 Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat May 08 2021, 00:11

@HERO wrote:

Basically now, with DE on the top of the meta, I wonder how much people have adjusted their list to meet the new menace.

0
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At least from what I've read online. Any suggestion get's shot down with "NOOOO THEY ARE TOO OP IT WON'T WORK!!"

I find it really amusing. That we as the true kin have to give the slave races tips on how to beat us because otherwise it would be too easy for us.

Maybe I was wrong ciritquing this book for the lack of flavour.

No other codex as of yet had me feeling so much like a Dark Eldar.
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KiriONE
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat May 08 2021, 02:36

@HERO wrote:
Yup. Did you have a chance to check out the last podcast vid I did on Twitch?

Basically now, with DE on the top of the meta, I wonder how much people have adjusted their list to meet the new menace. They can't complain about not being able to reach the podium if they're not preparing whole-heartedly. What I mean by this is, is it 10% of their list changed? If they're getting their ass beat, I think its time to reach out to 25/50/75% and see what happens.

I don't think the latter extremes have been done yet. I would love to see what a 50% tailored vs. DE list look like competitively. I would love to play against it as well.

I did, easily one of the fairer assessments of Drukhari as a whole, I especially appreciated the walk down memory lane over how a faction which has been pretty underwhelming for most of existence has really run afoul with people after being out with an update for a short time.

I agree about the list tailoring not yet seeing a full cycle of testing, I mean these DE lists we're talking about are still mostly T3 single wound models with average saves riding in transports. No monsters, psyker abilities, not really a whole lot of aura shenanigans. Just a lot of troops with good threat ranges in T6 transports. Surely someone can figure out how to deal with this?

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat May 08 2021, 03:22

@KiriONE wrote:
I agree about the list tailoring not yet seeing a full cycle of testing, I mean these DE lists we're talking about are still mostly T3 single wound models with average saves riding in transports. No monsters, psyker abilities, not really a whole lot of aura shenanigans. Just a lot of troops with good threat ranges in T6 transports. Surely someone can figure out how to deal with this?
The bigger issue will be, if someone wants to figure it out. Crying for excessive nerfs is much easier, after all...

Damn, I rant over rants... Suspect

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat May 08 2021, 20:17

I am really sorry about this, but I have to say it.
The Razorflail Succubus, using the book of rust is just plain cheating.
As for DT Liquifiers: it is so close to cheating, it might be.
How can you guys be happy, winning with that?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat May 08 2021, 22:46

@Zenotaph wrote:
I am really sorry about this, but I have to say it.
The Razorflail Succubus, using the book of rust is just plain cheating.
As for DT Liquifiers: it is so close to cheating, it might be.  
How can you guys be happy, winning with that?

Im not using either of them, my list stayed mostly the same and I'm winning maybe 10-15% more of my games, but I also had a better "tool kit" list in general (A better TAC list) a lot of the things that i used to use got nerf and buff at the same time so I didn't gain anything, but I did gain was slightly better incubi and now I have Hellions which are really good.

My wyches even with the +1 to attacks actually got worst, b.c I want to play out of CoS for the good stratagem but wych weapons took such a bit hit it is equal lost to gains, also I was playing Ynnari DE which boosted the wyches even more than new DE b.c we lose PFP going Ynnari now, old Ynnari DE Wyches not only had tailored wyches weapons (I took 3 units, 1x10 with 3 HG's, 1x10 with 3 Razorflails, and 1x10 with 3 Sharnets) it was +1atks on HG's +1Str on RF's, and +2" on Shardnets. I got Strike first and +1 to hit, I also got PFP which game me a 6+++ and re-roll charges, Ynnari let you run and charge with 1 unit, having each unit do a job and do it better was better than what we have now, the 3 Incubi for Ynnari was almost as good as new incubi, i still got fight first and +1 to hit, but now with new Incubi its higher damage, so its a net for me. The worst part is I lost the Yncarne.

My list was something like this for most games
8th list:
 

My new lists are like this, not exact points going off memory over the last few games, I change it up every game a unit or 2 to keep it fresh.

9th style lists:
 

As you can see, same type of theme ish. No beast (though I do like them, just no 5++/6+++ makes me not want them but they can run and charge now) so no Beasts, no Yncarne and Hellions with Drazhar (Drazhar was great in 8th but didn't fit Ynnari well)

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 00:28

I see your point. But that doesnt mean, my, well, how to put this... accusation isnt right on spot.
First: The very special Succubus using BoR rules. It is a Cheat. Really. Just try it.
Next is DT liquifiers: the fluff says, the Haemonculi are using their more unstable creations to do more damage,
Ignoring, or maybe even enjoying their henchmen using it. Really? The only ones enjoying it are?

I see a glitch.

I am really sorry, but that just doesnt look right. From my point of view: with a Codex this strong, we should not use bugs and cheats to win. We have all the good stuff, we can win every Match fair and square.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 00:38

Razorbus I agree is a glitch and needs to be FAQd out of existence asap. DT liquifiers I just cannot see in the same way though. GW intentionally changed DT from 1s to wound causing mortals, to 1s to hit. If they did so without realising that many Coven units had weapons that do not require hit rolls then they have no place being involved in a codex for this faction. If the playtesters also somehow missed that interaction they are also incompetent (and knowing who some of the playtesters are I find that very hard to believe). I have to believe that it was intentional.

On the above basis, I will happily run DT liquifiers until such time as they are changed (and we have already had a FAQ for the codex, so GW have had a chance). I will not however play the Razorbus.

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 02:31

So DT Liquifier spam was intentional? Using a weapons profile upgrade without the consequences?

By the way: I really like the term: Razorbus. Very Happy
Is it ok for you, if I use that?

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 05:00

@Zenotaph wrote:
So DT Liquifier spam was intentional? Using a weapons profile upgrade without the consequences?

Well, one consequence is that you have to take an all consuming obsession to get access to it. One that doesn't give anything else, like additional resilience. Im guessing that, if it was intentional, it's because it is something that seems less harmful on paper than in practice.  On its surface, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal - it's a 12" range weapon only available to wracks and talos. It only becomes an issue when you put a bunch of them in a raider, advance it across the table and hose down enemy units on turn 1. I am guessing that they might not have anticipated that.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 11:02

Tabletop Tactics (Spider and Chef) have now put up a Faction Focus video discussing the power level of the codex:



Pretty much everything in there I agree with and indeed it matches with most of the suggestions I put in this thread a few days back (+10 points on Raiders, switch DL and DC points, drop SC by 5 points, make liquifiers 1/unit on Wracks, points bump for the Succubus and Drazhar).

The only things I disagree with are:

Not being able to put, say, Cult, units in a, say, Kabal transport. I think that's fine and really don't want to see us pigeon-holed into having to keep our three sub-factions effectively as completely separate armies.

Removing the Incubi keyword from Drazhar. This may mess with other rules interactions at some point and a more elegant solution would be to alter the Archon and Drazhar's auras to affect CORE INCUBI only. Removes the auras from Drazhar but does nothing else unintended and also means they match most other auras in the game.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 11:32

I don't get why people are so bothered about the mixing of subfactions.

I've read so many times already that "marines would be broken if that was possible".
Except that there is a marine chapter that has three different sub factions in one army. Dark Angels.

I think most of it stems from people not knowing or not understanding how these faction rules interact. Hell even most Dark Eldar players didn't understand it when the codex initially dropped.

The one thing I'm concerned about is, that all those pt increases won't be enough. I have the feeling that a lot of players have convinced themselves that by increasing the raider by 10 pts, (+DT, Razorbus changes) everything will be fine and they don't have to adapt to the current meta. And then we will experience a salt storm the world has never seen before.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 13:02

@Zenotaph wrote:
So DT Liquifier spam was intentional?


Yes.

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toldavf
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 13:34

@AzraeI wrote:

The one thing I'm concerned about is, that all those pt increases won't be enough. I have the feeling that a lot of players have convinced themselves that by increasing the raider by 10 pts, (+DT, Razorbus changes) everything will be fine and they don't have to adapt to the current meta. And then we will experience a salt storm the world has never seen before.

10 points per raider over the average army is what 50-60 points? So slightly more than one msu? Cant see that doing much to our hitting power.

Though take my opinion with a grain of salt I've yet to play and am still learning.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 13:44

@toldavf wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:

The one thing I'm concerned about is, that all those pt increases won't be enough. I have the feeling that a lot of players have convinced themselves that by increasing the raider by 10 pts, (+DT, Razorbus changes) everything will be fine and they don't have to adapt to the current meta. And then we will experience a salt storm the world has never seen before.

10 points per raider over the average army is what 50-60 points? So slightly more than one msu? Cant see that doing much to our hitting power.

Though take my opinion with a grain of salt I've yet to play and am still learning.

Looking at the winning lists, a lot of "our hitting power" comes from few select units that hit way above their pay-grade. This includes DT, Drazhar and the Razoredge Succubus which skew the power level of a codex that has otherwise very good internal balance.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 13:46

@toldavf wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:

The one thing I'm concerned about is, that all those pt increases won't be enough. I have the feeling that a lot of players have convinced themselves that by increasing the raider by 10 pts, (+DT, Razorbus changes) everything will be fine and they don't have to adapt to the current meta. And then we will experience a salt storm the world has never seen before.

10 points per raider over the average army is what 50-60 points? So slightly more than one msu? Cant see that doing much to our hitting power.

Though take my opinion with a grain of salt I've yet to play and am still learning.
It doesnt. We are in a situation, where we can choose between very cheap units with tremendous hitting power.
And stuffing them in fast open topped T6 transports, that really can hit something, is what makes Drukhari so dangerous.

I dont see a big change, when our Raiders get a bit more expensive, but hey, if it makes others happy: So be it...

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 14:47

@toldavf wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:

The one thing I'm concerned about is, that all those pt increases won't be enough. I have the feeling that a lot of players have convinced themselves that by increasing the raider by 10 pts, (+DT, Razorbus changes) everything will be fine and they don't have to adapt to the current meta. And then we will experience a salt storm the world has never seen before.

10 points per raider over the average army is what 50-60 points? So slightly more than one msu? Cant see that doing much to our hitting power.

Though take my opinion with a grain of salt I've yet to play and am still learning.

The combined changes that TT were suggesting would add up to about 120 points (ish) in most lists. I think that would make a dent in our win rate and with the new codexes coming out shortly I'd be happy to see how it panned out.

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toldavf
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 15:00

@Count Adhemar wrote:

The combined changes that TT were suggesting would add up to about 120 points (ish) in most lists. I think that would make a dent in our win rate and with the new codexes coming out shortly I'd be happy to see how it panned out.

Time will tell as they say. Any eta on the first round of nerfs?
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun May 09 2021, 15:30

@toldavf wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

The combined changes that TT were suggesting would add up to about 120 points (ish) in most lists. I think that would make a dent in our win rate and with the new codexes coming out shortly I'd be happy to see how it panned out.

Time will tell as they say. Any eta on the first round of nerfs?

Will probably take some time

GW have (seemingly) stopped listeing to the whining of the community

Marines and necrons had no big changes as far as i know
Besides the now still useless canoptek reanimator and the nightbringer
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 10 2021, 02:44

@AzraeI wrote:
@toldavf wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

The combined changes that TT were suggesting would add up to about 120 points (ish) in most lists. I think that would make a dent in our win rate and with the new codexes coming out shortly I'd be happy to see how it panned out.

Time will tell as they say. Any eta on the first round of nerfs?

Will probably take some time

GW have (seemingly) stopped listeing to the whining of the community

Marines and necrons had no big changes as far as i know
Besides the now still useless canoptek reanimator and the nightbringer

The canoptek reanimator is actually decent now though at its new point cost. It has even made appearances in a few necron lists that have done well in tournaments. One list I recall had 3 squads of 20 necron warriors and 2 canoptek reanimators.

But yeah, will have to wait and see what GW do. I think its possible we see nerfs really soon when they release the book of rust faq. Might be why it has not had a faq posted yet for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 10 2021, 04:20

Any word on how well Drukhari did in this weekend's round of tourneys?
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 10 2021, 05:20

Last thing I heard was: Wait for the next bunch of Codices will not work. We need to nerf Drukhari now.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 10 2021, 11:32

@krayd wrote:
Any word on how well Drukhari did in this weekend's round of tourneys?

I didn't look but some say we did really bad, 2 top out of 10 events. I asked for event names but no answer yet. I also want to know if they are 12man or 24 or 40+ etc.. b.c anything under a 20man doesn't count to me (mostly b.c its just a local club event where most people know each other and everyone knows the big fish of the group or everyone knows everyone else's list so its not really balanced, too much list tailoring).

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 10 2021, 16:15

@amishprn86 wrote:
@krayd wrote:
Any word on how well Drukhari did in this weekend's round of tourneys?

I didn't look but some say we did really bad, 2 top out of 10 events. I asked for event names but no answer yet. I also want to know if they are 12man or 24 or 40+ etc.. b.c anything under a 20man doesn't count to me (mostly b.c its just a local club event where most people know each other and everyone knows the big fish of the group or everyone knows everyone else's list so its not really balanced, too much list tailoring).

My information reflects this. We did poorly over the weekend.

I managed to get in 2 competitive games over the weekend, managed to loose both with my full DT build (13 liquifiers, plus the kitchen sink). Blood Angles player beat me 70-60 and brought a standard pre-DE list. Just played well and won on points. Second player was a Tzeench player who stomped me 90-60.

I really dont think we are OP. Yes were powerful, but I feel that our innitial win rate was people not understanding the army yet. We are absolutely beatable, you just cant play against DE the same way you would play against Salamanders.

No nerfs required IMHO.

8th edition codexes are in a hard place. That is not our fault or responsibility.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 10 2021, 18:25

@fisheyes wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@krayd wrote:
Any word on how well Drukhari did in this weekend's round of tourneys?

I didn't look but some say we did really bad, 2 top out of 10 events. I asked for event names but no answer yet. I also want to know if they are 12man or 24 or 40+ etc.. b.c anything under a 20man doesn't count to me (mostly b.c its just a local club event where most people know each other and everyone knows the big fish of the group or everyone knows everyone else's list so its not really balanced, too much list tailoring).

My information reflects this. We did poorly over the weekend.

I managed to get in 2 competitive games over the weekend, managed to loose both with my full DT build (13 liquifiers, plus the kitchen sink). Blood Angles player beat me 70-60 and brought a standard pre-DE list. Just played well and won on points. Second player was a Tzeench player who stomped me 90-60.

I really dont think we are OP. Yes were powerful, but I feel that our innitial win rate was people not understanding the army yet. We are absolutely beatable, you just cant play against DE the same way you would play against Salamanders.

No nerfs required IMHO.

8th edition codexes are in a hard place. That is not our fault or responsibility.

Tell me about this Tzeentch list though Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 10 2021, 19:03

Went to a 22 man tournament.
Beat Death Guard, Tau and Tzeentch demon bomb / horde.

Toughest game was against the Tau.
(I don't take strife or do those razorflail shenanigans, so no denying overwatch)

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Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?
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THE DARK CITY :: 

GENERAL DRUKHARI DISCUSSION

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