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 Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?

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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 01:14

1 month is not enough for a meta to shift and i'm wondering why you think it is, people need time to test, get models, build, paint, etc... and it still takes a couple weeks to even see if a new book is worth gearing for. Also I literally gave you proof we are starting to level out b.c the meta IS CHANGING. but you "ignored it", for crying out loud nids are beating us lol.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 08:44

@amishprn86 wrote:
1 month is not enough for a meta to shift and i'm wondering why you think it is, people need time to test, get models, build, paint, etc... and it still takes a couple weeks to even see if a new book is worth gearing for. Also I literally gave you proof we are starting to level out b.c the meta IS CHANGING. but you "ignored it", for crying out loud nids are beating us lol.

Man, you cannot be more wrong. I've dialed back from this thread for a while, but this thinking is just not true.

~1.5 months ago, I said we were going to change the meta, and be a Tier1 army, having virtually no bad matchups from the current Tier1/2 meta.
~2 weeks after the book came out in, this was validated by the first string of GTs based from US/AUS events.
~1 month after the book came out, with the first supermajor (Dallas) and 5/6 DE lists in the top, this pretty much confirms it.
~Now, we wait to see how much further people have time to adapt???

In my most recent Twitch vid, I mentioned competitive gamers' mentality:
Competitive players that have experience will be able to 1. Make accurate forecasts, and 2. playtests theories 3. adjust quickly. First 2 weeks, sure, maybe some people just didn't get it, or knew how the book worked. After getting rofl-stomped the first 2 weeks? You bet people would have made changes, especially for Dallas. After Dallas? Competitive, tournament players still need to adapt?

Either these are the most incompetent players on the planet who are willing to travel, spend money on hotels, and play multiple days with no chance of victory by not adjusting a single bit to the new meta, or we're all smoking something.

Quick snip - Real life example, minor tangent but similar to what we're dealing with in this game system.
https://www.swimstrim.com/runeterra/decks-and-meta

I'm currently playing LOR, doing quite well, new exp (like the DE book) just came out and the meta has exploded with a deck currently dominating (like our tournaments). Pro players have forecasted this (kinda like what I did, Swim did for LOR), playtested counters heavily (counter-cards, then entire counter-decks i.e. tailoring 10% vs. 50% for DE matchups), and found that outside of hard-tailloring (counter-decks entirely), the meta is still being overran by Azir/Irelia (kinda like DE) sitting at 60+ WR (ours is ~70%). Will this meta change? Yes, especially if another exp gets released (i.e. Admech). But what will Riot do? Most likely hit certain card interactions that are making the deck so dominant (i.e. DE nerfs).

So this, is just a quick example from another game system that I'm currently playing through. I've done this for like 20 years, in RTS, FPS, and other TCGs. I literally do not know how to play games non-competitively. Which brings me to my point..

Real competitive gamers are extremely fast at adapting so they can win. Otherwise, playing, going to tournaments or whatever is a complete waste of time. It might have been a long time since I played some pro RTS/FPS/TCG, but this mentality has never changed for me. You must adapt quickly or you will fall behind. I used to watch replays after games I lost in SC/WC3, learned from mistakes and immediately integrate them into my next game, fighting games are the most hardcore, people literally download their opponents on the fly. It's insanely impressive.

This is the hallmark of every competitive tournament player in 40K who are actually any good. The AOW guys literally formed a playerhouse where this is all they do. This is why they are constantly the top players in the tournaments that they attend. It is no different than a pro eSports gamer house. If you're devoting this much time into the hobby that it becomes your profession, saying that these people are not adapting is a complete joke not alone insult.

I think we need to come to terms that the game of competitive 40K some of us knew before has changed, greatly. The flow of information is much greater now, there's channels dedicated to improving and getting good at the game, and players are taking it much more serious now than ever before. It's almost like an eSport now, which has had years to mature and formulate what makes one competitive gamer stand out about others.

Having worked in eSports myself and having played pro myself, the answer to this is really quite simple (and circular):
Talent is nothing without knowledge..
Knowledge is nothing without practice..
Practice is nothing without talent.

And this is why the best players are always those who are naturally gifted, surround themselves with the very best to share knowledge, and practice more than others. crap, you can say the same with virtually any sport.

Anyways, I rambled long enough, you're just plain wrong. Anyone who keeps saying WAIT AND SEE now just don't get it, and most likely never will. Whatever, I'm going back into my hole, see you guys when the Admech book leaks and I'll make another prediction vid or something, just so I can be told WAIT AND SEE again.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 12:28

I don't play 40k at a high enough level yet to be able to do it myself but I'd like to throw my agreement in anyways. I've played several other games at a very high level (most of them card games), it usually took me less than a day or two to adapt to a meta change and then maybe a week or so to refine it until it was tournament worthy. Which was tricky when something released less than a week before an event Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 13:59

HERO you're forgetting one thing, countering us is leaves them vulnerable to other lists.

Marines are what? 50% of every tournament entry? Most people don't want to change because things that counter dark eldar suck against everything else.

I've lost count of how many times I've read "but autocannons are garbage"

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 16:22

@HERO wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
1 month is not enough for a meta to shift and i'm wondering why you think it is, people need time to test, get models, build, paint, etc... and it still takes a couple weeks to even see if a new book is worth gearing for. Also I literally gave you proof we are starting to level out b.c the meta IS CHANGING. but you "ignored it", for crying out loud nids are beating us lol.

Man, you cannot be more wrong. I've dialed back from this thread for a while, but this thinking is just not true.

~1.5 months ago, I said we were going to change the meta, and be a Tier1 army, having virtually no bad matchups from the current Tier1/2 meta.
~2 weeks after the book came out in, this was validated by the first string of GTs based from US/AUS events.
~1 month after the book came out, with the first supermajor (Dallas) and 5/6 DE lists in the top, this pretty much confirms it.
~Now, we wait to see how much further people have time to adapt???

In my most recent Twitch vid, I mentioned competitive gamers' mentality:
Competitive players that have experience will be able to 1. Make accurate forecasts, and 2. playtests theories 3. adjust quickly. First 2 weeks, sure, maybe some people just didn't get it, or knew how the book worked. After getting rofl-stomped the first 2 weeks? You bet people would have made changes, especially for Dallas. After Dallas? Competitive, tournament players still need to adapt?

Either these are the most incompetent players on the planet who are willing to travel, spend money on hotels, and play multiple days with no chance of victory by not adjusting a single bit to the new meta, or we're all smoking something.

Quick snip - Real life example, minor tangent but similar to what we're dealing with in this game system.
https://www.swimstrim.com/runeterra/decks-and-meta

I'm currently playing LOR, doing quite well, new exp (like the DE book) just came out and the meta has exploded with a deck currently dominating (like our tournaments). Pro players have forecasted this (kinda like what I did, Swim did for LOR), playtested counters heavily (counter-cards, then entire counter-decks i.e. tailoring 10% vs. 50% for DE matchups), and found that outside of hard-tailloring (counter-decks entirely), the meta is still being overran by Azir/Irelia (kinda like DE) sitting at 60+ WR (ours is ~70%). Will this meta change? Yes, especially if another exp gets released (i.e. Admech). But what will Riot do? Most likely hit certain card interactions that are making the deck so dominant (i.e. DE nerfs).

So this, is just a quick example from another game system that I'm currently playing through. I've done this for like 20 years, in RTS, FPS, and other TCGs. I literally do not know how to play games non-competitively. Which brings me to my point..

Real competitive gamers are extremely fast at adapting so they can win. Otherwise, playing, going to tournaments or whatever is a complete waste of time. It might have been a long time since I played some pro RTS/FPS/TCG, but this mentality has never changed for me. You must adapt quickly or you will fall behind. I used to watch replays after games I lost in SC/WC3, learned from mistakes and immediately integrate them into my next game, fighting games are the most hardcore, people literally download their opponents on the fly. It's insanely impressive.

This is the hallmark of every competitive tournament player in 40K who are actually any good. The AOW guys literally formed a playerhouse where this is all they do. This is why they are constantly the top players in the tournaments that they attend. It is no different than a pro eSports gamer house. If you're devoting this much time into the hobby that it becomes your profession, saying that these people are not adapting is a complete joke not alone insult.

I think we need to come to terms that the game of competitive 40K some of us knew before has changed, greatly. The flow of information is much greater now, there's channels dedicated to improving and getting good at the game, and players are taking it much more serious now than ever before. It's almost like an eSport now, which has had years to mature and formulate what makes one competitive gamer stand out about others.

Having worked in eSports myself and having played pro myself, the answer to this is really quite simple (and circular):
Talent is nothing without knowledge..
Knowledge is nothing without practice..
Practice is nothing without talent.

And this is why the best players are always those who are naturally gifted, surround themselves with the very best to share knowledge, and practice more than others. crap, you can say the same with virtually any sport.

Anyways, I rambled long enough, you're just plain wrong. Anyone who keeps saying WAIT AND SEE now just don't get it, and most likely never will. Whatever, I'm going back into my hole, see you guys when the Admech book leaks and I'll make another prediction vid or something, just so I can be told WAIT AND SEE again.

This isn't Esports though, being someone that travels for GT's, practices for them, and active in the research as well (as you can see if you go through i've showed a lot of stats and events to back it up), i can tell you it doesn't move fast.

There is a perceived haste in the community b.c the top 5% of players are able to buy ... "Barrow and crap build" whole armies if they wanted too and its always being reported on, go to your local 8-16mans, 24mans, and even smaller GT's of 30-50mans and I can tell you that is not the case at all. Yes you might have a couple DE players push in a couple DT flamers, or a couple DA's push in Attack bikes and Bike Apoth, but not full army changes like you see from the top 30 players and top 5-6 teams (Art of War team for example).

Go read a large amount of post on other communities (Dakka, BolS, etc..) you'll see a LARGE amount of players are not even trying to build lists to fight us even for events, they just say "If I build for DE I can't win against Marines, DG, or Custodes, I might not fight DE so why bother losing against more popular armies" This is literally being said daily.

So No, the meta isn't shifting fast.

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Drukhari: 10k+
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 18:57

@AzraeI wrote:
HERO you're forgetting one thing, countering us is leaves them vulnerable to other lists.

Marines are what? 50% of every tournament entry? Most people don't want to change because things that counter dark eldar suck against everything else.

I've lost count of how many times I've read "but autocannons are garbage"

I am NOT forgetting this. I've said this a billion and one times either on my Twitch or somewhere on this board. The key is finding the special sauce of tailoring 10-50+% of your list to deal with what is currently dominating, and still having the amount needed to deal with marines. Previously, people might have been taking 10% of their lists to deal with DE, clearly not enough.

The armies that will succeed are the ones who:
1. Have the appropriate answers.
2. The same answers can service both DE and MEQ.
3. Can do it with the least amount of adaptation needed.

The armies that do best will fit all of the above, the ones that cannot are ones that simply will not see the top podium, assuming skill is equal. If the bulk majority of the books in the game cannot meet the above, then something is wrong with OUR army, not the books.

This conclusion is what most top players are saying.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 19:11

Quote :
This isn't Esports though, being someone that travels for GT's, practices for them, and active in the research as well (as you can see if you go through i've showed a lot of stats and events to back it up), i can tell you it doesn't move fast.

There is a perceived haste in the community b.c the top 5% of players are able to buy ... "Barrow and crap build" whole armies if they wanted too and its always being reported on, go to your local 8-16mans, 24mans, and even smaller GT's of 30-50mans and I can tell you that is not the case at all. Yes you might have a couple DE players push in a couple DT flamers, or a couple DA's push in Attack bikes and Bike Apoth, but not full army changes like you see from the top 30 players and top 5-6 teams (Art of War team for example).

Go read a large amount of post on other communities (Dakka, BolS, etc..) you'll see a LARGE amount of players are not even trying to build lists to fight us even for events, they just say "If I build for DE I can't win against Marines, DG, or Custodes, I might not fight DE so why bother losing against more popular armies" This is literally being said daily.

So No, the meta isn't shifting fast.

First, I don't give a rats ass about what I read on dakka/bols or whatever trash forum has to say about DE. Why would I care as its mostly casuals complaining and not thinking about reaching the podium? This point is extremely irrelevant to this discussion. As someone who frequents GTs and apparently does a lot of competitive research, this defense weakens your argument quite a bit, does it not? No competitive player in any game cares two crap about what the casual player says; because using the logic I previously presented, they're not in the same knowledge/talent/practice circle. True competitive players aim to win at the tournaments they go to, otherwise they're just wasting time and money. To do so, they can only do it within the circle I mentioned above to have the best chances.

Second, I am not accounting for time to paint, field and provide counters for a reason. It's because many of the top players have the resource to immediately adjust, just like whales in a TCG where money is not an entry-barrier. Just look at the AOW guys, they chase the meta and play to win, period. Money is not an option; they have literally every unit in every army or have them commissioned overnight. They understand that to win, they will offline practice with proxies as needs be, and they will do this for days leading up to an event. Resources are no longer as restricting as you think with the hobby being much larger. I know plenty of players that have gone to Dallas and later San Antonio and Lonestar that are borrowing units from players (I myself donated to a friend some painted stuff I'm not working on atm).

Lastly, you're telling me it doesn't move fast. You can keep telling me that, but unless all the top players I know are completely wrong, or the stats are completely wrong, or I take a time machine and reverse all my predictions, I believe you are the outlier. Which I'm sorry to say, exists in every game system I've been involved in. Much like the bulk majority of the people in the 40K Competitive FB group, there's going to be people who lack the three fundamentals to really take the hobby to the next level (whether funds, time, skill, whatever). I will take my chances listening to players who actually fit the criteria of a modern, competitive gamer.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 19:40

B.c its called feeling out the room, you go read what is popular to get a sense from the community, you also learn more about other armies, strategies, etc... Sure if you are a causal player this is not needed or a local with a group of friends that are used to each other, why would you? But when talking about nuances of balance, armies, meta, etc.. you kind of need too, if you are limiting your information you are limited in what might be a problem and what might not be.

To me it weakens your argument that you don't even care about learning what the community has to say.

Who cares what the top players do, they also make mistakes are are wrong time to time for meta calls. One of the AoW players is known to "only play WS's" and he went DE b.c he said "I had a better chance to win with them" but if you look at many Events WS are actually doing really well vs DE and are winning events b.c of it after swapping out just a few units. If he would have instead stayed with him WS and practice more with them and not jump on the band wagon he might have actually did just as well. Also I've seen "top players" lose round 1 and just drop out of the event after getting 4 "good event numbers" b.c they only cared about getting a better over all ITC score. Yeah a nice player to follow.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 21:23

@amishprn86 wrote:
B.c its called feeling out the room, you go read what is popular to get a sense from the community, you also learn more about other armies, strategies, etc... Sure if you are a causal player this is not needed or a local with a group of friends that are used to each other, why would you? But when talking about nuances of balance, armies, meta, etc.. you kind of need too, if you are limiting your information you are limited in what might be a problem and what might not be.

To me it weakens your argument that you don't even care about learning what the community has to say.

Who cares what the top players do, they also make mistakes are are wrong time to time for meta calls. One of the AoW players is known to "only play WS's" and he went DE b.c he said "I had a better chance to win with them" but if you look at many Events WS are actually doing really well vs DE and are winning events b.c of it after swapping out just a few units. If he would have instead stayed with him WS and practice more with them and not jump on the band wagon he might have actually did just as well. Also I've seen "top players" lose round 1 and just drop out of the event after getting 4 "good event numbers" b.c they only cared about getting a better over all ITC score. Yeah a nice player to follow.

No, I don't care what the casual community has to say. There is a distinct, and very real difference. This is why in competitive games that balance testing is conducted with pro players and not casuals.

This doesn't weaken my argument too say that the vast majority of the playerbase has no place in competitive game balance conversations. This is conducted IRL by every major eSports from RTS/MOBA/FPS/TCG. They all follow the same principles and understand the trinity of why skill, practice and knowledge is vitally important to making informed opinions. Organizations that understand this harness these players' opinions and not yours.

Does this alienate the vast majority of the community? Yes, sorry, but its true. If you want to be part of these conversations and have a direct line to developers, stop it with the fat kid left out of the team mentality. It literally gets you nowhere. You think Relic talked to randoms on the community forums instead of me and my ESL-P team for Dawn of War? You think EA talked to casuals instead of the top players in BfME about game balance? You think I talked to random dude in the crowd when I was collecting balance feedback for SC2 and Hearthstone? You think I talked to people like you for what to tech in my deck when I was on PTQ for MTG? Get real dude.

This is the same frak conversation I've had for ~25 years, in every god damn game system. That's why earlier I said If you don't get it by now, you will never get it. We will never be on the same page, I'm fine leaving it at that.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 23:04

Results don't lie

Maryland OPEN ITC Grand Tournament 2021 106 man GT
Top 5
Patrick McAneeny, White Scars - Team Battle Brothers
Jon Tulman, Death Guard - carcosa
Mark Hertel, Cult Mechanicus - Team Battle Brothers
Steven Christopher, Necrons - Lost Boys
Nick De Veaux, Drukhari - carcosa

Sean Nayden 20th place, went 3-2 lost to Admech and Sisters, Sean was using the same list from Dallas (4 DT flamers, Ynnari Incubi, 3x3 Dark reapers, and 2 Nightspinners.

2nd Place fought 2 DE players, beat 1 and lost to another, the one he lost too didn't have DT flamers
3rd Place lots to Sean.

But there were a lot of DE there, 13 DE lists. Top 10 there was 2, but also 2 Admech.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 23:12

EDIT: Looks like they messed up some numbers on the games, DG went 4th, give me an hour until they sort it out.

Different people are seeing different results in the app.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 23:22

Puh, after reading the last few pages, I am so happy, that I am only a casual gamer.
It seems to me, that some people had completely forgot, what games are for.
Having fun. Laughing. Create good memories. Not winning, no matter the cost....

Im outa this thread. See you in others, when you guys remember, what games are made for. 👋👋

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeMon May 17 2021, 01:06

@Zenotaph wrote:
Puh, after reading the last few pages, I am so happy, that I am only a casual gamer.
It seems to me, that some people had completely forgot, what games are for.
Having fun. Laughing. Create good memories. Not winning, no matter the cost....

Im outa this thread. See you in others, when you guys remember, what games are made for. 👋👋

That is every bit the elitist attitude you think you're condemning. You think YOU game the right way and people who don't game like you are wrong.

Games are for everyone. There is not a right or wrong way to do it. It's just best for both players if someone looking for casual isn't forced to play against competitive or vice versa. Having a pro-athlete show up to a pick-up game would make the players there miserable. Having a pick-up player stumble onto a pro-sports field would ruin the professional game.

Laughter, fun, and good times are the primary purpose of games FOR YOU. Don't project that into that being the primary purpose for everyone. Other people have fun playing against the best of the best, and winning at the highest level is their "good times". Neither opinion is wrong, nor should it be judged.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeMon May 17 2021, 03:35

@amishprn86 wrote:
Results don't lie

Maryland OPEN ITC Grand Tournament 2021 106 man GT
Top 5
Patrick McAneeny, White Scars - Team Battle Brothers
Jon Tulman, Death Guard - carcosa
Mark Hertel, Cult Mechanicus - Team Battle Brothers
Steven Christopher, Necrons - Lost Boys
Nick De Veaux, Drukhari - carcosa

Sean Nayden 20th place, went 3-2 lost to Admech and Sisters, Sean was using the same list from Dallas (4 DT flamers, Ynnari Incubi, 3x3 Dark reapers, and 2 Nightspinners.

2nd Place fought 2 DE players, beat 1 and lost to another, the one he lost too didn't have DT flamers
3rd Place lots to Sean.

But there were a lot of DE there, 13 DE lists. Top 10 there was 2, but also 2 Admech.

I'm not understanding the point here..

Do you mean to say that sometimes Drukhari win and sometimes they lose? Because a month ago, out of 10 GTs that occurred, Drukhari only won in 4 of them. I don't quite understand the post. They are still a Tier1 army and players are now increasing from 10% vs. DE to greater?

What would be useful data for all those players who won using armies is, what they were taking in previous events vs. now a month+ after DE has frak their way through the meta.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeMon May 17 2021, 07:58

@Zenotaph wrote:
Puh, after reading the last few pages, I am so happy, that I am only a casual gamer.
It seems to me, that some people had completely forgot, what games are for.
Having fun. Laughing. Create good memories. Not winning, no matter the cost....

Im outa this thread. See you in others, when you guys remember, what games are made for. 👋👋

Bye
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeMon May 17 2021, 12:06

Allright boys, I know we all know we are waaayyy smarter than the person we're arguing with

Let's take a deep breath, calm down, and cool it with the shade we're throwing
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeMon May 17 2021, 13:01

@sekac wrote:
That is every bit the elitist attitude you think you're condemning. You think YOU game the right way and people who don't game like you are wrong.

Games are for everyone. There is not a right or wrong way to do it. It's just best for both players if someone looking for casual isn't forced to play against competitive or vice versa. Having a pro-athlete show up to a pick-up game would make the players there miserable. Having a pick-up player stumble onto a pro-sports field would ruin the professional game.

Laughter, fun, and good times are the primary purpose of games FOR YOU. Don't project that into that being the primary purpose for everyone. Other people have fun playing against the best of the best, and winning at the highest level is their "good times". Neither opinion is wrong, nor should it be judged.

Actually, I do not condemn anybody. How could I? I admit, what I wrote, sounded a bit, well, harsh, and may have offended some.
But from my point of view, lots of people have forgotten, what made them playing Warhammer.
The excitement, when going to shop a new box, building and painting the minis, and then using it the first time.
OK, the painting part isnt exactly my favorite. Every time I pick up a brush, it feels like having 5 thumbs. Suspect

Professional gaming is, and that is just my personal opinion, a bit of an Oxymoron.
Im not so selfcentered, that I just say, it is the wrong way to play, so dont get me wrong here.
I just dont understand, what makes winning at all costs and beeing the best of the best of the best so attractive.
Sure, winning sometimes is nice, but it isnt all there is to the hobby. At least for me. Very Happy

But here, talking about competitive gaming, its more like talking serious business, rather than a hobby, we all share.
So, do I say, pro gaming is wrong? No, although I dont understand it.
Is it the wrong way for me? Oh yes! In so many ways, I dont even want to count.

Jup, I wanted to stay away, but I felt the need to clarify that. So, no hard feelings, ok? lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeMon May 17 2021, 15:31

Well, the results from this weekend do mean that you *can*, at least, build lists that counter DE lists, and also be able to beat other lists too.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeMon May 17 2021, 16:31

@krayd wrote:
Well, the results from this weekend do mean that you *can*, at least, build lists that counter DE lists, and also be able to beat other lists too.

But we all knew this, we also know that all players are not created equal. We also know that good players have bad days. That's why DE have a 70%+ WR, that will likely decline over time, especially with the rise of books, and not a 100% WR regardless of player.

I don't know why the obvious must be validated still.

Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kACcmw98UK8

^ lol, I didn't talk about this in a podcast 1.5 months ago or anything. Can't wait to see the "IG's real good vs. DE guys" one. Turns out there are natural counter to the army by design. Shocking.

Complete list of tournaments recently:
https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2021/05/16/throw-those-masks-off-time-for-warhammer-40k-tournament-results/

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeMon May 17 2021, 17:18

So, let me take a step back in hopes to be more productive as I've been cranky as F in this thread.

Here are some players I know and their techs in the list:

Sisters, already a good matchup for us:
https://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/%e2%80%8bBrandon-Grant-1st-Place-Gameology-Battle-For-LA-2021-Adepta-Sororitas.pdf

> Drop Katherine
> +Inquisitor
> +Seraphim

Inquisitor is a given here, especially since we have no psychic defense. Seraphim is just money vs. us and there's the same consistent MSU play that's good because they're cheap and effective, like us. Look at the number of sisters troops here.

Eldar, we are favored (IMO):
https://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Kyle-Parry-1st-Place-Murrieta-Invitational-GT-2021-Harlequins-Craftworlds.pdf

+Warp Spiders for infantry outside of transports
+Shadoweavers, same
+Foot Harlequins over transports

Surprised me here honestly with more foot, they're better vs. MEQ but our melee HQs and ASL Murder these kind of lists. However, the foot ones were probably played more conservatively. I really like this matchup, I think its a great matchup (50:50, very skill intensive). I've played 4 games of this so far and love it a lot.

Dark Angels, we were favored (especially vs. Deathwing):
https://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Thomas-Ogden-1st-Place-Red-River-GT-2021-Dark-Angels.pdf

+More Ravenwing over Deathwing, min Death
-Surprised there's not more Talonmasters

Basically, Deathwing is a trap, you keep doing this vs us and you'll get stomped. More Ravenwing is certainly the answer.

Chaos:
https://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Daniel-Sansone-3rd-Place-Red-River-GT-2021-Chaos-Daemons-Death-Guard-Thousand-Sons.pdf

The unholy trinity with Magnus, Morty and TS. Honestly, this one surprised me. But for DG, I've been doing and advocating for:

Nurgle Demons + PBs blocks are back, they are incredible vs us lol
3x PBC, no morty, Deathshrouds up the ass, as well as the standard good stuff heroes

Battle for LA results, just want to mention that there's not a lot of dedicated, good DE players. I'm one of them, I can't make it (new bebe keeping me down). I would have been to this one but yeah.. just can't get out of the f'n house.

ULTRAs:
https://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/John-Lennon-1st-Place-The-Cool-Place-Spring-GT-2021-Space-Marines-Ultramarines.pdf

lol, John's been talking about this weeks. Yeah, look at the shooting and the inclusion of twin ironhail ACs and accelerator ACs, on top of the standard twin Volkite. It's not like Skari and I haven't been recommending ACs for WEEKs as tech.

surprised I don't see more custodes bike captains + telemons + Mechanicus splash, that would do insanely well vs DE

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeMon May 17 2021, 18:02

Admech book is coming out in 2 weeks.  The DE win rate is starting to fall a bit (avg 68% as per 40kstats) but still too high.  This weekend showed 2 GT's that were not won by DE.  We should also see a book of rust FAQ soon.  Sisters should be hot on the heels of Admech as well.   A lot of my friends in the NOVA area have been asking for games against my DE and how to beat them, Suppressors, MM attack bikes can open stuff up.  Yes the top players that play multiple times a week adjust the the meta at lightning speed.  The rest of us pleebs who can maybe get to a GT or RTT once a month because of life stuff adjust a bit slower.  There are more pleebs than top players so there is an inherent lag in the 40k meta.  We should all be happy about this really.  You want change in the meta, who wants to play against IH again for 8 or 9 months at the end of 8th edition.  That was not fun.

I think we will continue to see the win rate fall over these next 2 months but it may not make it into sub 60% until we get a points adjustment which honestly....there is always some army sitting around 60% win rate in this game.  Sisters/Harlies have been around 56/58% since the start of 9th edition. That's just the way it is.  50% win rate for all armies is a pipe dream until GW starts doing digital releases they can update more quickly.
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeTue May 18 2021, 14:02

I think this debate kind of comes down to the age-old gaming balance question of who you balance for. Just because someone chooses to book travel and hotels for tournaments, does that give them more of an ownership in the hobby than someone who just drives to their local shop or friends house to play? That's for GW to answer, and honestly judging on how fast they've balanced things over all these years-their focus is to get people into the hobby converting them to return customers and get them involved in their local gaming community. There's more money and growth I would think in newer hobbyists than the hyper-competitive types. I'm assuming that competitive players who have been at this awhile either have most of the things they need for their army or they buy/sell armies secondhand on ebay or within their local groups to get to playing faster.

Putting my business hat on for a second, GW is probably enjoying the fact that Drukhari are getting so much notoriety since the book came out. As I pointed out in another thread, they NEEDED to do something with this book since the faction has pretty much been languishing for several years. While I don't have access to exact numbers, I'd hazard a guess that the recent sales of DE kits has probably done well enough that it's going to exceed it's 2020 sales fairly quickly.

Some people are probably just finishing up painting on some models that they got to coincide with the release and some people might still trying to get their hands on the book altogether (I noticed it's out of stock online). Not sure exactly what kind of message it sends to nerf your book so soon after its release because some internet bloggers said it was too strong (by their own standards).

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeTue May 18 2021, 14:04

still. Still. STILL talking about this.

Wow.

So glad Admech is coming out soon. Let everyone hate the robot boys for a while.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeTue May 18 2021, 17:22

This is very relevant to this thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/ne28z9/riots_opinion_of_the_current_meta/

If you read this article but replace GW with Riot, LOR with this game, Azir/Irelia with Drukhari, you have this thread, in a nutshell. Also, replace "new cards" coming up with AdMech, to protract some foresight.

HOWEVER.. watch this 1 minute segment from Swim (top player):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmrx8zmIKl8&t=12m20s

In fact, watch to the end.

The TLDR in competitive play is that a new powerful book can be seen as a virus invading the body (meta). While you might be dominant at first, the meta will fight back and build antibodies for it. It's a natural process and will lead to the eventual decrease of WR%. Another insight to take away from this talk is that certain armies don't have to have a high WR to be oppressive. Lastly, data does not speak for itself, it's still up to people to interrupt it i.e. Goonhammer. Because it's meant for people to interrupt, it can be exaggerated or molded to fit a narrative.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeWed May 19 2021, 06:34

I belive tha majority of the guys here misjudge the word "counter".

The problem with DE is that they have no countersin the way we always considered the word "counter".
When I read about "people that are writing lists that counter DE" I wounder if they realize that their "countet" here means just "having some chances about playing ad equilibrate game against DE".
THAT'S the problem with US.

When you list against DE, you're not listing something that crush us. You're just listing something that will let you have a normal balanced game against us. And MAYBE win some.games. Maybe.

While, if you list to counter an opponent, he should struggle against you. That never happrns with us.
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