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 Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 14:17

just a small suggestion that came to my mind reading your comments all: Raiders seems to be the thing that glue everything together and bring us in a ''broken'' position.
Be it for DT or CoS, its the Raiders that makes it work a little bit too much
But all those ''broken'' lists all seem to use like 5-6 Raiders

Why not just apply the rule of 3 for transport??
I know this will change a lot of your gameplay, but that would solve a lot.
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 15:47

Oh boy. Really? Rule of 3 for Drukhari Raiders? Because they do exactly, what they are supposed to?
What is next? Only one squad Wyches per Cult Detachement?

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 16:04

@Kalmah wrote:


Why not just apply the rule of 3 for transport??
I know this will change a lot of your gameplay, but that would solve a lot.

Okay, now I think that you might be a plant. Razz

Do you even Dark Eldar? Razz
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 16:29

@Kalmah wrote:
Why not just apply the rule of 3 for transport??
I know this will change a lot of your gameplay, but that would solve a lot.

In a faction that is literally built around transports, limiting that faction to 3 transports is pretty much the same as squatting them. Just no.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 16:49

@Kalmah wrote:
just a small suggestion that came to my mind reading your comments all: Raiders seems to be the thing that glue everything together and bring us in a ''broken'' position.
Be it for DT or CoS, its the Raiders that makes it work a little bit too much
But all those ''broken'' lists all seem to use like 5-6 Raiders

Why not just apply the rule of 3 for transport??
I know this will change a lot of your gameplay, but that would solve a lot.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 17:05

@SERAFF wrote:

The antitank potential of the meta today is just weak bc there are not too many proper targets across the lists.
If people bring their meltas and d3+3 cannons back, you will find out that your "undercosted" raider is made of paper and the passengers are dead on the ground.

Mmm actually those kind of guns is what we face better than the rest. They bring few shots, and we have both more wounds and invuln saves.

Raiders are great against meltas and similar shots. While they suffer against spam of S7 high AP D2/3.

If a SM will bring 9 Multimelta attack bikes you would say that it is a terrifying antitank potential. They kills something like 3 Raiders. 4 if you are lucky. But now you have spent a lot of points that will die badly because the DE player is in the best position for charges.

And all of this works only in a flat board. I'm not into it.
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 17:06

@Kalmah wrote:
just a small suggestion that came to my mind reading your comments all: Raiders seems to be the thing that glue everything together and bring us in a ''broken'' position.
Be it for DT or CoS, its the Raiders that makes it work a little bit too much
But all those ''broken'' lists all seem to use like 5-6 Raiders

Why not just apply the rule of 3 for transport??
I know this will change a lot of your gameplay, but that would solve a lot.


I agree with the first part, but the rule of three would kill this faction's flavour Smile

They just need to be 100-105 points each.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 17:30

ok ok ok i get it Wink my idea was really bad!
But hey! it was just a small idea in my head that popped after reading your comments.
But just to clarify, what i was suggesting is that you could have 3x Raiders and 3x Venom, not 3x transport as a whole.........but i know you won't like it anyway Wink

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 19:48

@Cerve wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Zenotaph wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
So going from T5 to T6 isn't a buff.
I've read this several times, but I still dont understand. Its like your words just dont make any sense. Suspect

In 8th we could already have T6 vehicles with Coven, DT was already really strong and the meta from PA release, not only could we get T6 Raiders but also T6 Venoms if we wanted too. My tournament list was full of T6 Raiders (10 actually) so going from T6 to.... T6 is not different.

Also you could instead go BH and get a FnP of 6+++ on them which is equal to +1T for the most part (better vs higher and lower str but worst vs equal) Against Str 4 and 7+ the FnP is actually better. Overall BH vehicles got less survivable and Coven are equal.


Dude, that worked only within an Haemi, there's all the difference of the world here.

And if you don't get that 11 carrier potential IS a value of toughness overall that means you don't have a full view of the strongness of this Codex in this edition. You give T6 and 10 ablative wounds to THREE units instead of two, and we are a talking about a package that you can fit in list like 6-8x times. It's not like you have to kill a single Raider, is that with T6 ALWAYS, on every boat you deploy, with 14"+ movement with fly...well, that's another story for real.

The change between 10 and 11 IS a value of tougness, because where you usually have to pay 1 Trasport for 1 unit, or max 2 of them, Drukhari can field 3 blender-units, all of three super good, at the cost of a single undercosted transport. Can you see the math in there? That means you have MORE transport tougness and capability/blender potential together than every other Codex in this game. We have usually between 3 and 4 characters, and we have a lot of 5 mensquad size, everyone of these guys are a massive blenders. Drazhar, Succubi, kitted Archons, Incubi, Wracks, and only after that here there comes the 10x units: Wyches, and Trueborns.
The change between 10 and 11 means literally that you can fit MORE transports and powerful guys in the same 2000 pts limit than every other Codex in this game. Where you had to buy a Transport alone just for the HQ.

And, are you really make a comparison between a cluster of transports all around a fielded Haemonculus, with 7"+D6 maximum movement, with no fly, in 8 edition where you can stay and fire and bring games at home...to the T6 built-in characteristic, with fully 14"+D6(+stratagems) movement, all around the board, in an edition of movements and melee, objective conquers? Seriously?
It's like comparing Chess with Chessex. Two completely different universes.

I hate to sound "that guy", but jeez there's an huge luck un comprehension about this game. It seems all about dice, hit rolls and wound rolls here, which is like the 35% of the game maybe. English is not my main so maybe I sound more harsh that I am. Sorry if that happens, it still a game of plastic soldiers, nothing to rant about. But still, it's a deep game. For me, considering just the math is just a partial view of it.


I'm comparing survivability and cost between 8th book (that was played in 9th as well not just 8th, when I say 8th I am still meaning during 9th), all through 9th I've been running Raiders (I always do, even in 8th, i just like them better) and I can tell you for the same points (DC vs DL though) old Raiders and new Raiders are the same survivability (old better vs some guns actually if you are BH), which was my point. Thought out all of 9th I was playing at least 2x10 wyches, 2x5 Incubi, Drazhar, 2 Shredder Scourges, 3x5 Kabals, Archon, Haemon, 30 Wracks, 5 Raiders. Coming from someone that ran raiders with the 8th book in 9th for many games (I was still playing weekly b.c the lock downs were not heavy for my state and we have private play areas so it was easy to get a 1v1 game, there was only a 3 month period of heavy lock downs but we played a TTS league). The Raider is not better other than 11 slots, and then that isn't much b.c it was needed not wanted, i would rather have Fly HQ's added but nope GW hates giving DE new units. Finally, yes the Dark lance is much better, so increase the cost of the DL by 5-10pts and have the DC free.

With that said, let me ask you. How many games of 9th do you have with 8th book using raiders and how many do you have in 9th with our new book? Are you speaking from experience or from what you read on reddit and Goon?




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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 20:44

@Cerve wrote:
Mmm actually those kind of guns is what we face better than the rest. They bring few shots, and we have both more wounds and invuln saves.

Raiders are great against meltas and similar shots. While they suffer against spam of S7 high AP D2/3.

All of those S6, S7, or even S8 weapons that are Heavy 8, Heavy 12, Assault 20, etc. are still in the game, and they still would tear through Drukhari vehicles and units the same as they always did, it's just that people have stopped putting them in their lists because they don't have much AP and do little against the plethora of tanky armoured dudes that everyone else seems to bring. I don't see how that is the Drukhari's fault or why we should be nerfed to accomodate the kind of lists they prefer to play. They all have plenty of options that would work against us.

In my limited and casual experience, I've been winning with my Drukhari lately because my opponents don't seem to know what to do. They see Raiders and Venoms and bring melta-ish weapons instead of, for example, autocannons. They try to block my Wyches with tough melee units and seem surprised when I charge them anyway -- because of course the Wyches are better off in combat than out in the open, no matter how tough they are. They plant Mortarion right in front of my entire detachment of Poison Tongue Kabalites and say, 'Deal with this!', and seem surprised when they deal with that.

I haven't used a Razorflail Succubus, and I'm pretty sure she's being read incorrectly, but even in her case: she is still a T3 model with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. Are you honestly telling me that the 50 different types of Primaris Meringue don't have a way to kill that? In a codex that is twice the size of the game rules, they don't have anything that can handle T6 10 Wound Raiders?

We've been playing catch-up with every other army in the game for years and years now. Instead of self-flagellating (and not in a sexy way) how about we let them adapt to us, for a change?

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 21:13

This might be a stupid question, or hillarious I guess, but in an official Tournament,
can the participants change their lists? Or is it fixed from beginning until the end?

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 21:22

Typically it's fixed

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 21:24

@Zenotaph wrote:
This might be a stupid question, or hillarious I guess, but in an official Tournament,
can the participants change their lists? Or is it fixed from beginning until the end?

No, they are set for the full event.

When you see talk about "DE is strong" its not that they are strong, its they have a good TAC list for events. If you are playing Pick up games and talk to your opponent first, they can prepare which is a much more balance way to play b.c for most armies playing against DG or against DE are completely different, sure a lot of what works to kill DG can work to kill our vehicles but also at the same time a lot doesn't, SM, Guard, and even Custodes wants completely different lists to fight DG than they to do fight DE. Some armies like T'au, Admech, and even Custodes with some others can list tailor against DE extremely hard, heck even some Marines, but then they will lose to DG, Necrons, Custodes.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 21:30

Ah, so 'Drukhari are too strong' means: My list doesnt work on them.
Well, welcome to my world... Write a new one. cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 22:15

@Zenotaph wrote:
Ah, so 'Drukhari are too strong' means: My list doesnt work on them.
Well, welcome to my world... Write a new one. cheers

While that is fundamentally true, what makes it tricky is teching for matchups aside from Drukhari. Aside from meta-chasers, there just aren't very many Drukhari players. On the other hand, more than half the meta has power armor. In other words, armies that have completely different weaknesses from Drukhari. So there's only so much list adaptation one can do without compromising matchups elsewhere.

But yes, the competitive lists need to change or die. But even when they do, and even when we receive a few nerfs (whatever those may end up being), we will still be a strong army. We have a lot of depth that we just aren't seeing a ton of right now due to how good our best tools are.
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri May 14 2021, 22:35

@sekac wrote:
But yes, the competitive lists need to change or die. But even when they do, and even when we receive a few nerfs (whatever those may end up being), we will still be a strong army. We have a lot of depth that we just aren't seeing a ton of right now due to how good our best tools are.
Please, do not get me wrong here. I sure know, we have a really strong Codex. I also know, that some nerfs have to come.
But, since I only play for fun and laughs and I dont like cheap glitches, like Razorbus or DT liquifier spam,
those nerfs wont hit me that hard. For my list, the only nerf I will see, is a pointincrease of some sort. No big deal, right? Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat May 15 2021, 00:01

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Mmm actually those kind of guns is what we face better than the rest. They bring few shots, and we have both more wounds and invuln saves.

Raiders are great against meltas and similar shots. While they suffer against spam of S7 high AP D2/3.

All of those S6, S7, or even S8 weapons that are Heavy 8, Heavy 12, Assault 20, etc. are still in the game, and they still would tear through Drukhari vehicles and units the same as they always did, it's just that people have stopped putting them in their lists because they don't have much AP and do little against the plethora of tanky armoured dudes that everyone else seems to bring. I don't see how that is the Drukhari's fault or why we should be nerfed to accomodate the kind of lists they prefer to play. They all have plenty of options that would work against us.

In my limited and casual experience, I've been winning with my Drukhari lately because my opponents don't seem to know what to do. They see Raiders and Venoms and bring melta-ish weapons instead of, for example, autocannons. They try to block my Wyches with tough melee units and seem surprised when I charge them anyway -- because of course the Wyches are better off in combat than out in the open, no matter how tough they are. They plant Mortarion right in front of my entire detachment of Poison Tongue Kabalites and say, 'Deal with this!', and seem surprised when they deal with that.

I haven't used a Razorflail Succubus, and I'm pretty sure she's being read incorrectly, but even in her case: she is still a T3 model with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. Are you honestly telling me that the 50 different types of Primaris Meringue don't have a way to kill that? In a codex that is twice the size of the game rules, they don't have anything that can handle T6 10 Wound Raiders?

We've been playing catch-up with every other army in the game for years and years now. Instead of self-flagellating (and not in a sexy way) how about we let them adapt to us, for a change?


While all of this still true, unfortunately its not enough. We are chewing throught list designed for killing us. We have no bad matchup at all. Even if you list completely against us, and against us only (so you are ignoring every other army) you will not crushing us: you will play a fair game against us.

That's the problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat May 15 2021, 01:09

@Cerve wrote:
@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Mmm actually those kind of guns is what we face better than the rest. They bring few shots, and we have both more wounds and invuln saves.

Raiders are great against meltas and similar shots. While they suffer against spam of S7 high AP D2/3.

All of those S6, S7, or even S8 weapons that are Heavy 8, Heavy 12, Assault 20, etc. are still in the game, and they still would tear through Drukhari vehicles and units the same as they always did, it's just that people have stopped putting them in their lists because they don't have much AP and do little against the plethora of tanky armoured dudes that everyone else seems to bring. I don't see how that is the Drukhari's fault or why we should be nerfed to accomodate the kind of lists they prefer to play. They all have plenty of options that would work against us.

In my limited and casual experience, I've been winning with my Drukhari lately because my opponents don't seem to know what to do. They see Raiders and Venoms and bring melta-ish weapons instead of, for example, autocannons. They try to block my Wyches with tough melee units and seem surprised when I charge them anyway -- because of course the Wyches are better off in combat than out in the open, no matter how tough they are. They plant Mortarion right in front of my entire detachment of Poison Tongue Kabalites and say, 'Deal with this!', and seem surprised when they deal with that.

I haven't used a Razorflail Succubus, and I'm pretty sure she's being read incorrectly, but even in her case: she is still a T3 model with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. Are you honestly telling me that the 50 different types of Primaris Meringue don't have a way to kill that? In a codex that is twice the size of the game rules, they don't have anything that can handle T6 10 Wound Raiders?

We've been playing catch-up with every other army in the game for years and years now. Instead of self-flagellating (and not in a sexy way) how about we let them adapt to us, for a change?


While all of this still true, unfortunately its not enough. We are chewing throught list designed for killing us. We have no bad matchup at all. Even if you list completely against us, and against us only (so you are ignoring every other army) you will not crushing us: you will play a fair game against us.

That's the problem.

No we are not, having looked at 9 of the GTs/Majors that Goon pointed out and many others Goon didn't point out (Funny b.c we didn't do well in those lol). Lists design to kill us are destroying us, the Major in Dallas that we took 1st, well we should not have took 1st and Admech should have, the Admech player made a couple key mistakes, also the 9th place White Scars player beat 2 (or 3? I can't remember now) DE lists even including "pros" and he didn't take a list tailored for us, just a couple units.


Lets take a look 2 Weeks ago when DE was IMO still a "problem" (I only looked at events with more than 24 players, under that amount then its just a local group and shouldn't be counted) and see how we are doing.

W4 Warhammer 40k GT 40man- Top 3; WS, SoB, Orks, DE placed 5th
Motor City Mayhem 2021 50man - top 3; ALL UNDEFEATED, DE, Admech, Quins
Spring 2021 Barnyard Brawl 30man - Top 3; Necrons, Guard, BA, DE placed 8th
Dakka Kon 30man - Top 3; Chaos, Necrons, Knights, DE placed 7th
Olympus Games GT 36man - Top 3; Nids, Tua, Guard/Custodes, DE placed 5th

Some events DE does well like Spring Up GT, 50man - Top 3 was DE, DE, and DG.

So while DE can get top 3, the meta already started to shift even before Dallas Majors, but with Dallas the actual winrate for that event for DE was 66% (not counting drop outs, you can argue its 68% if you count the soup list by Sean but I didn't b.c it was 965pts Eldar). Also literally top 3 of the best players took DE, sure its b.c they felt they could win with them, but they also could have won without them.

The numbers being presented by Goon are skewed. I've gone through over 30 events and DE only had extreme win rates for the first few weeks then it dove down after that leveling out about around a 64-66 win rate, equal to Quins/Sister.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat May 15 2021, 08:10

@Cerve wrote:
While all of this still true, unfortunately its not enough. We are chewing throught list designed for killing us. We have no bad matchup at all. Even if you list completely against us, and against us only (so you are ignoring every other army) you will not crushing us: you will play a fair game against us.

That's the problem.

First of all, that is not true. It is a barefaced lie, and a mean one at that!

And second of all, how would that be a problem? It's not a problem for me, I like squishing meringues. Squish, squish, squish!

Let them have the problem, I say.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat May 15 2021, 08:44

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Mmm actually those kind of guns is what we face better than the rest. They bring few shots, and we have both more wounds and invuln saves.

Raiders are great against meltas and similar shots. While they suffer against spam of S7 high AP D2/3.

All of those S6, S7, or even S8 weapons that are Heavy 8, Heavy 12, Assault 20, etc. are still in the game, and they still would tear through Drukhari vehicles and units the same as they always did, it's just that people have stopped putting them in their lists because they don't have much AP and do little against the plethora of tanky armoured dudes that everyone else seems to bring. I don't see how that is the Drukhari's fault or why we should be nerfed to accomodate the kind of lists they prefer to play. They all have plenty of options that would work against us.

In my limited and casual experience, I've been winning with my Drukhari lately because my opponents don't seem to know what to do. They see Raiders and Venoms and bring melta-ish weapons instead of, for example, autocannons. They try to block my Wyches with tough melee units and seem surprised when I charge them anyway -- because of course the Wyches are better off in combat than out in the open, no matter how tough they are. They plant Mortarion right in front of my entire detachment of Poison Tongue Kabalites and say, 'Deal with this!', and seem surprised when they deal with that.

I haven't used a Razorflail Succubus, and I'm pretty sure she's being read incorrectly, but even in her case: she is still a T3 model with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. Are you honestly telling me that the 50 different types of Primaris Meringue don't have a way to kill that? In a codex that is twice the size of the game rules, they don't have anything that can handle T6 10 Wound Raiders?

We've been playing catch-up with every other army in the game for years and years now. Instead of self-flagellating (and not in a sexy way) how about we let them adapt to us, for a change?


While all of this still true, unfortunately its not enough. We are chewing throught list designed for killing us. We have no bad matchup at all. Even if you list completely against us, and against us only (so you are ignoring every other army) you will not crushing us: you will play a fair game against us.

That's the problem.

No we are not, having looked at 9 of the GTs/Majors that Goon pointed out and many others Goon didn't point out (Funny b.c we didn't do well in those lol). Lists design to kill us are destroying us, the Major in Dallas that we took 1st, well we should not have took 1st and Admech should have, the Admech player made a couple key mistakes, also the 9th place White Scars player beat 2 (or 3? I can't remember now) DE lists even including "pros" and he didn't take a list tailored for us, just a couple units.


Lets take a look 2 Weeks ago when DE was IMO still a "problem" (I only looked at events with more than 24 players, under that amount then its just a local group and shouldn't be counted) and see how we are doing.

W4 Warhammer 40k GT 40man- Top 3; WS, SoB, Orks, DE placed 5th
Motor City Mayhem 2021 50man - top 3; ALL UNDEFEATED, DE, Admech, Quins
Spring 2021 Barnyard Brawl 30man - Top 3; Necrons, Guard, BA, DE placed 8th
Dakka Kon 30man - Top 3; Chaos, Necrons, Knights, DE placed 7th
Olympus Games GT 36man - Top 3; Nids, Tua, Guard/Custodes, DE placed 5th

Some events DE does well like Spring Up GT, 50man - Top 3 was DE, DE, and DG.

So while DE can get top 3, the meta already started to shift even before Dallas Majors, but with Dallas the actual winrate for that event for DE was 66% (not counting drop outs, you can argue its 68% if you count the soup list by Sean but I didn't b.c it was 965pts Eldar). Also literally top 3 of the best players took DE, sure its b.c they felt they could win with them, but they also could have won without them.

The numbers being presented by Goon are skewed. I've gone through over 30 events and DE only had extreme win rates for the first few weeks then it dove down after that leveling out about around a 64-66 win rate, equal to Quins/Sister.


64-66% is BUSTED dude! Wtf.

An army with a 57% is considered a problem already. And we, when we faces "lists written specifically to kill us" manage to have a 66%?!

Doesn't it sounds broken to you?!

The perfect world would figure out every army with a 50% of victories for a perfect balanced game. But this is impossible.
It is possible, however, aiming to the 55% at maximum for some armies.

And we, at the beginning, we have a 70% of wins. AFTER THE META SHIFTED AGAINT US, we are at....66%
And you all are saying that it is fine? Really?


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amishprn86
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Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat May 15 2021, 15:37

@Cerve wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Mmm actually those kind of guns is what we face better than the rest. They bring few shots, and we have both more wounds and invuln saves.

Raiders are great against meltas and similar shots. While they suffer against spam of S7 high AP D2/3.

All of those S6, S7, or even S8 weapons that are Heavy 8, Heavy 12, Assault 20, etc. are still in the game, and they still would tear through Drukhari vehicles and units the same as they always did, it's just that people have stopped putting them in their lists because they don't have much AP and do little against the plethora of tanky armoured dudes that everyone else seems to bring. I don't see how that is the Drukhari's fault or why we should be nerfed to accomodate the kind of lists they prefer to play. They all have plenty of options that would work against us.

In my limited and casual experience, I've been winning with my Drukhari lately because my opponents don't seem to know what to do. They see Raiders and Venoms and bring melta-ish weapons instead of, for example, autocannons. They try to block my Wyches with tough melee units and seem surprised when I charge them anyway -- because of course the Wyches are better off in combat than out in the open, no matter how tough they are. They plant Mortarion right in front of my entire detachment of Poison Tongue Kabalites and say, 'Deal with this!', and seem surprised when they deal with that.

I haven't used a Razorflail Succubus, and I'm pretty sure she's being read incorrectly, but even in her case: she is still a T3 model with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. Are you honestly telling me that the 50 different types of Primaris Meringue don't have a way to kill that? In a codex that is twice the size of the game rules, they don't have anything that can handle T6 10 Wound Raiders?

We've been playing catch-up with every other army in the game for years and years now. Instead of self-flagellating (and not in a sexy way) how about we let them adapt to us, for a change?


While all of this still true, unfortunately its not enough. We are chewing throught list designed for killing us. We have no bad matchup at all. Even if you list completely against us, and against us only (so you are ignoring every other army) you will not crushing us: you will play a fair game against us.

That's the problem.

No we are not, having looked at 9 of the GTs/Majors that Goon pointed out and many others Goon didn't point out (Funny b.c we didn't do well in those lol). Lists design to kill us are destroying us, the Major in Dallas that we took 1st, well we should not have took 1st and Admech should have, the Admech player made a couple key mistakes, also the 9th place White Scars player beat 2 (or 3? I can't remember now) DE lists even including "pros" and he didn't take a list tailored for us, just a couple units.


Lets take a look 2 Weeks ago when DE was IMO still a "problem" (I only looked at events with more than 24 players, under that amount then its just a local group and shouldn't be counted) and see how we are doing.

W4 Warhammer 40k GT 40man- Top 3; WS, SoB, Orks, DE placed 5th
Motor City Mayhem 2021 50man - top 3; ALL UNDEFEATED, DE, Admech, Quins
Spring 2021 Barnyard Brawl 30man - Top 3; Necrons, Guard, BA, DE placed 8th
Dakka Kon 30man - Top 3; Chaos, Necrons, Knights, DE placed 7th
Olympus Games GT 36man - Top 3; Nids, Tua, Guard/Custodes, DE placed 5th

Some events DE does well like Spring Up GT, 50man - Top 3 was DE, DE, and DG.

So while DE can get top 3, the meta already started to shift even before Dallas Majors, but with Dallas the actual winrate for that event for DE was 66% (not counting drop outs, you can argue its 68% if you count the soup list by Sean but I didn't b.c it was 965pts Eldar). Also literally top 3 of the best players took DE, sure its b.c they felt they could win with them, but they also could have won without them.

The numbers being presented by Goon are skewed. I've gone through over 30 events and DE only had extreme win rates for the first few weeks then it dove down after that leveling out about around a 64-66 win rate, equal to Quins/Sister.


64-66% is BUSTED dude! Wtf.

An army with a 57% is considered a problem already. And we, when we faces "lists written specifically to kill us" manage to have a 66%?!

Doesn't it sounds broken to you?!

The perfect world would figure out every army with a 50% of victories for a perfect balanced game. But this is impossible.
It is possible, however, aiming to the 55% at maximum for some armies.

And we, at the beginning, we have a 70% of wins. AFTER THE META SHIFTED AGAINT US, we are at....66%
And you all are saying that it is fine? Really?




1) You glared over the results of 2 weeks ago when players started to build to fight DE, see how well are are doing?

2) DE doesn't have a lot of games compare to many others and then when 4 of the top players goes to a 8 round event with a army that had so little event games and the meta wasn't ready so had a rough first weened of anti-meta lists. Yes its going to seem high, but if you look at the last 2 weeks that is NOT the case at all DE is more at 60% (which is well within the normal for GW balance). GW will NEVER be a 50/50 thats impossible. I would aim for 44/55 if i was GW as a player even up to a 58% is fine as long as it is a beatable list for most armies. (Which we are beatable for most armies).

3) At no time in 9th so far has there not been army(s) at 60% or higher winrate, yes this is BAD, but remember we went from 8th to 9th that was a funamental change in objectives with books built for each, it will be unbalanced until more armies comes out and players stop list tailoring for the other 2 big scary armies (DG and Custodes)

4) We are only a problem b.c of Meta not b.c we are OP, but also Mike Brandt and Reece has already came out and said to wait for more codices to come out and it will level out.

Finally the real busted things are
1) DT flamers - These will either go up in points or 1 per 5 when CA 21 comes out
2) Court - Way to cheap for wounds and damage, can easily get you WWSWF, all needs to go up +2pts (Lham is fine where she is at, she is the worst of them and not worth taking)
3) CE/RF Suc combo - we all know this is not working as it should
4) Fly-by - this stratagem literally kills characters for 2CP, you can turn 1 kill a 6w character with a 12man Reaver unit if you really wanted too, normally you wait turn 2 with Hellions so you can "Fly-by" kill a character, then shoot and charge still. It needs to be 2/3 CP and not 1/2 CP at least.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat May 15 2021, 16:02

The flyby strat just needs to be reworded to only give the +1 bonus to non-character infantry, and that's it. I doubt that it was intended to snipe characters, but it was definitely intended to dice up infantry.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat May 15 2021, 16:29

@krayd wrote:
The flyby strat just needs to be reworded to only give the +1 bonus to non-character infantry, and that's it. I doubt that it was intended to snipe characters, but it was definitely intended to dice up infantry.

Yeah that would be better, I would like it to stay cheaper but less effective.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat May 15 2021, 16:53

@amishprn86 wrote:

1) DT flamers - These will either go up in points or 1 per 5 when CA 21 comes out


I really hope it's just DT that is nerfed and not regular wracks/coven. I feel like, without DT, they're already underwhelming compared to kabal/cult.

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PostSubject: Re: Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?   Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good? - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSun May 16 2021, 01:01

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Mmm actually those kind of guns is what we face better than the rest. They bring few shots, and we have both more wounds and invuln saves.

Raiders are great against meltas and similar shots. While they suffer against spam of S7 high AP D2/3.

All of those S6, S7, or even S8 weapons that are Heavy 8, Heavy 12, Assault 20, etc. are still in the game, and they still would tear through Drukhari vehicles and units the same as they always did, it's just that people have stopped putting them in their lists because they don't have much AP and do little against the plethora of tanky armoured dudes that everyone else seems to bring. I don't see how that is the Drukhari's fault or why we should be nerfed to accomodate the kind of lists they prefer to play. They all have plenty of options that would work against us.

In my limited and casual experience, I've been winning with my Drukhari lately because my opponents don't seem to know what to do. They see Raiders and Venoms and bring melta-ish weapons instead of, for example, autocannons. They try to block my Wyches with tough melee units and seem surprised when I charge them anyway -- because of course the Wyches are better off in combat than out in the open, no matter how tough they are. They plant Mortarion right in front of my entire detachment of Poison Tongue Kabalites and say, 'Deal with this!', and seem surprised when they deal with that.

I haven't used a Razorflail Succubus, and I'm pretty sure she's being read incorrectly, but even in her case: she is still a T3 model with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. Are you honestly telling me that the 50 different types of Primaris Meringue don't have a way to kill that? In a codex that is twice the size of the game rules, they don't have anything that can handle T6 10 Wound Raiders?

We've been playing catch-up with every other army in the game for years and years now. Instead of self-flagellating (and not in a sexy way) how about we let them adapt to us, for a change?


While all of this still true, unfortunately its not enough. We are chewing throught list designed for killing us. We have no bad matchup at all. Even if you list completely against us, and against us only (so you are ignoring every other army) you will not crushing us: you will play a fair game against us.

That's the problem.

No we are not, having looked at 9 of the GTs/Majors that Goon pointed out and many others Goon didn't point out (Funny b.c we didn't do well in those lol). Lists design to kill us are destroying us, the Major in Dallas that we took 1st, well we should not have took 1st and Admech should have, the Admech player made a couple key mistakes, also the 9th place White Scars player beat 2 (or 3? I can't remember now) DE lists even including "pros" and he didn't take a list tailored for us, just a couple units.


Lets take a look 2 Weeks ago when DE was IMO still a "problem" (I only looked at events with more than 24 players, under that amount then its just a local group and shouldn't be counted) and see how we are doing.

W4 Warhammer 40k GT 40man- Top 3; WS, SoB, Orks, DE placed 5th
Motor City Mayhem 2021 50man - top 3; ALL UNDEFEATED, DE, Admech, Quins
Spring 2021 Barnyard Brawl 30man - Top 3; Necrons, Guard, BA, DE placed 8th
Dakka Kon 30man - Top 3; Chaos, Necrons, Knights, DE placed 7th
Olympus Games GT 36man - Top 3; Nids, Tua, Guard/Custodes, DE placed 5th

Some events DE does well like Spring Up GT, 50man - Top 3 was DE, DE, and DG.

So while DE can get top 3, the meta already started to shift even before Dallas Majors, but with Dallas the actual winrate for that event for DE was 66% (not counting drop outs, you can argue its 68% if you count the soup list by Sean but I didn't b.c it was 965pts Eldar). Also literally top 3 of the best players took DE, sure its b.c they felt they could win with them, but they also could have won without them.

The numbers being presented by Goon are skewed. I've gone through over 30 events and DE only had extreme win rates for the first few weeks then it dove down after that leveling out about around a 64-66 win rate, equal to Quins/Sister.


64-66% is BUSTED dude! Wtf.

An army with a 57% is considered a problem already. And we, when we faces "lists written specifically to kill us" manage to have a 66%?!

Doesn't it sounds broken to you?!

The perfect world would figure out every army with a 50% of victories for a perfect balanced game. But this is impossible.
It is possible, however, aiming to the 55% at maximum for some armies.

And we, at the beginning, we have a 70% of wins. AFTER THE META SHIFTED AGAINT US, we are at....66%
And you all are saying that it is fine? Really?




1) You glared over the results of 2 weeks ago when players started to build to fight DE, see how well are are doing?

2) DE doesn't have a lot of games compare to many others and then when 4 of the top players goes to a 8 round event with a army that had so little event games and the meta wasn't ready so had a rough first weened of anti-meta lists. Yes its going to seem high, but if you look at the last 2 weeks that is NOT the case at all DE is more at 60% (which is well within the normal for GW balance). GW will NEVER be a 50/50 thats impossible.  I would aim for 44/55 if i was GW as a player even up to a 58% is fine as long as it is a beatable list for most armies. (Which we are beatable for most armies).

3) At no time in 9th so far has there not been army(s) at 60% or higher winrate, yes this is BAD, but remember we went from 8th to 9th that was a funamental change in objectives with books built for each, it will be unbalanced until more armies comes out and players stop list tailoring for the other 2 big scary armies (DG and Custodes)

4) We are only a problem b.c of Meta not b.c we are OP, but also Mike Brandt and Reece has already came out and said to wait for more codices to come out and it will level out.

Finally the real busted things are
1) DT flamers - These will either go up in points or 1 per 5 when CA 21 comes out
2) Court - Way to cheap for wounds and damage, can easily get you WWSWF, all needs to go up +2pts (Lham is fine where she is at, she is the worst of them and not worth taking)
3) CE/RF Suc combo - we all know this is not working as it should
4) Fly-by - this stratagem literally kills characters for 2CP, you can turn 1 kill a 6w character with a 12man Reaver unit if you really wanted too, normally you wait turn 2 with Hellions so you can "Fly-by" kill a character, then shoot and charge still. It needs to be 2/3 CP and not 1/2 CP at least.


No, I disagree with everything you say in this case. Saying that DE are not broken and that's all a matter of meta to me means 1) or being blind; 2) or missing some concept of the game itself.

The meta IS on us now. 1 month and half is enough, DE are winning a lot of tournaments, they ARE the public enemy right now. And yes, while some results against us cames out, we still completely over the top. Stop arguing that "the meta needs to evolve", no, the meta is now. AdMech anti-DE is real, Volcon+Veterans is real, Necron-Horde is now, etc. Everyone lists against DE since 2 weeks almost, and we still win against our "nemesis".
It's already too much, and EVERY top player says that Raiders are the problem. I don't know why here there's this trend about "Meta just need to adjust"....it's not. It's already done.

And waiting for next Codexes is the worst thing a player can hope! We have already 4-5 9th Codexes, it's not like we are the first of their kind, every new Codex should be at SM-BA-DA-Necrons level. And we already have an unmbalance (with DA). Are we really hopes that AdMech will kill us? For what, a rock-paper-scissor game?
If AdMech goes out busted, then we will have 2 busted Codexes instead of one.


I agree on 1 Liquefator every 5 Wracks, and the CoS fix.
For me, I would even love to see CoS Strife avaible if ALL the units in the ARMY are from Strife. You get +4(5) traits +4(5) relics and +10(11) stratagems with Strife, which is....the same amount about the Codex itself! Every other Obsession takes 1-1-1, why letting one of the ten Obsessions with all these goodies at no cost at all?
Do you wanna full Strife? The play an entire Strife Army. It would even sounds better for the fluff too.
And you would give actual choices to DE players. Right now, if you don't play Strife, you're not playing at the 100%.
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