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 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches

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albions-angel
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 28 2021, 09:07

I know, I know, 10 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches, but seriously, I would appreciate advice.

My current army plans involves 2 nearly identical wych cult patrols, and one kabal patrol. The Kabal Patrol is unimportant to this question, other than "it fills out a certain amount of points". The 2 wych cults each contain the following:

1 upgraded Succi
5 x wyches
10 x wyches
1 Raider
1 Venom (technically belongs to the kabal)

and then either:
Red Grief - 2x6 Reavers
Cursed Blade - 1x10 Hellions, 1x6 Clawed Fiends, 1 Beastmaster

I need to decide which squad of wyches to upgrade to bloodbrides, and I am torn. Points wise, I can do either (by shifting around some upgrades). So thats not an issue.

The way I see it, 10 bloodbrides is a terrifying thing to face, durable enough (by shear weight of numbers) to make it to the enemy, and stabby enough to end more or less anything. But a unit of 5 wyches isnt all that great. Though they can reliably hold a point, especially if backed up by a Succi.

Alternatively, 10 wyches are now much more survivable, and the 5 bloodbrides are still very stabby, but overall I lose out on the mathhammer. Although now its the 10 wyches with a shardnet which will help to keep the enemy glued to them, and that brings them closer to bloodbrides.

But in 9th, mathhammer isnt everything and wyches dont take to being shot very well.

So, thoughts? Is it better to frontload and go for 10 Bloodbrides and 5 wyches, or better to "share the load" (Mr Frodo) and go for 10 Wyches and 5 Bloodbrides?

Huge Hammer and Chaff, or Big Hammer and Little Hammer?
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Cerve
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 28 2021, 09:25

I would say 10 Brides and 5 Wyches. Units of 5 are good for missions, harras, you know distractions etc. You don't need them as Brides.
Brides wants a lot of attacks, so go for it: 40 attacks, 10 Bbrides!

This way, or just 10+5 all Wyches, 0 Brides. I love Brides but it's ok playing none of them.
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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 28 2021, 10:59

@Cerve wrote:
This way, or just 10+5 all Wyches, 0 Brides. I love Brides but it's ok playing none of them.

True, but I have the points for them. Sounds good though, 10 Brides makes sense. My thinking was that 5 brides could actually pose a threat, while 5 wyches just hold stuff in place, but I am still thinking in terms of actually fighting and I really need to shift to secondaries.

In terms of drugs, my plan was for every wych squad to use the +1 Str (and probably +1 Attack on charge for Succi, +1 BS for Reavers) but is +1 Str really that useful on Cursed Blade? They already get it, does getting another one meet a certain break point, or is +1T better for the surival?
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Zenotaph
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 28 2021, 11:37

Why not use Cursed Blade for +1S and +1A from the drugs? Best of two worlds.
You will be on the offensive most of the time anyways.

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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 28 2021, 11:53

@Zenotaph wrote:
Why not use Cursed Blade for +1S and +1A from the drugs? Best of two worlds.
You will be on the offensive most of the time anyways.

I am using Cursed Blade for the +1 Str.

My Red Grief wyches all get +1 Str from drug

My Cursed Blade get it from the cult, and could either get it from the drug as well (for +2 Str) or could get something else. The +1 A is far less attractive now that its only on a charge (or HI), but +1 T might be worth considering? I just dont know if there is a common breakpoint that would make +2 Str on wyches worth it.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 28 2021, 12:28

Skari keep saying bloodbrides are redundant...most of the targets have invul and we do get WS2+ at turn 3.

Im still sold on them.

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Last edited by Azdrubael on Wed Apr 28 2021, 13:18; edited 1 time in total
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 28 2021, 12:48

Why is +1A less attractive, just because its only when attacking? When using Wyches, you are attacking most of the time.
If not even all the time. I mean, thats what Wyches do. Attacking. You could even fall back and attack again.
But honestly! What survives the assault of 10 Bloodbribes?

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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 28 2021, 13:03

@Zenotaph wrote:
Why is +1A less attractive, just because its only when attacking? When using Wyches, you are attacking most of the time.
If not even all the time. I mean, thats what Wyches do. Attacking. You could even fall back and attack again.
But honestly! What survives the assault of 10 Bloodbribes?

Because there are other armies that also have heavily melee focused units and want to charge. Khorne for example will likely be slinging blobs of 20-30 bloodletters at our squads of 10 bloodbrides. And they can charge further and more reliably.

I agree, if we can get the charge, +1 A is fantastic. +1A was king in the last set of combat drugs, and it sucked we could only take it once per 6 squads. But if we get caught by something that can go toe to toe with us, then +1S or +1T will still work, while +1A will not.

+1A on Succi though... now thats good, because not only does it work on a charge, but also in an intervention. They can leap in front of a bloodletter charge and that +1A means that with the right wargear, they are making potentially 15+ attacks as a single model!

But I agree, vs something less melee oriented (Tau, IG, even AdMech so long as they dont bring too many skitari), then +1 A is good because the drugs on wyches only really work in close combat, and not much will survive the initial charge, so it makes sense to front load the options.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 28 2021, 13:34

Ok, I can agree to that. But, jeah, there always is a but, a 20-30 blob would get softened up by splinterfire and other gimmicks.

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Pippolele
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 21:19

If you intend both squads to be on the offensive I would go for 10 Whyches and 5 Brides:
This offers two credible treats to your opponent: Which one is he going to shoot at? Either way you will have one unit left capable to dish out pain.
10 Brides and 5 Whyches on the contrary would make for very obvious target prioritization.

If you intend for one unit to act as objective holder / action performer then go 10 Brides and 5 whyches.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 13:38

What is your intended target for the units?

Wyches are great at taking out light-medium infantry. Heavy infantry is better targetted by Incubi.

Honestly, I dont see much value in the Blood Brides. +20% cost gets you very little. Those points could be used to get more bodies (if you are intending on targetting the ideal medium-light infantry) or Incubi (16 pts vs 12 pts, significantly better if you are going against 2+ armor or multi-wound).

You are not taking Cult of Strife? Those strats REALLY amp up the power of wyches. Always fight first, +1" charge, ignore overwatch (1CP), reroll wounds (2CP), double attack (2cp), +1AP (1CP). You lose out on a lot when you dont take them IMHO
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 14:59

They do have value. WS2+, AP-3 with woundroll of 6, +1Ld. It is a boost. And be honest, with point costs as low as ours,
you for sure can afford it.

As for the Cult of Strife: Some people play just for fun, not to dish out damage, no matter what. I prefer Cult of the cursed Blade.
It just suits my Fluff, when I got the time to write some. And they are still good enough to do their job.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 18:46

@Zenotaph wrote:
They do have value. WS2+, AP-3 with woundroll of 6, +1Ld. It is a boost. And be honest, with point costs as low as ours,
you for sure can afford it.

As for the Cult of Strife: Some people play just for fun, not to dish out damage, no matter what. I prefer Cult of the cursed Blade.
It just suits my Fluff, when I got the time to write some. And they are still good enough to do their job.

Fair enough dude. OP asked a question, I am just giving a point of view that has not yet been brought up.

Feel free to run your stuff however you want, and give whatever advice you feel has value.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 19:01

@fisheyes wrote:
Fair enough dude. OP asked a question, I am just giving a point of view that has not yet been brought up.

Feel free to run your stuff however you want, and give whatever advice you feel has value.
I always do. Wink
I think, its just important to see all points of view. Yours for sure has its value, so no offence meant,
but I think, and Im not alone there, that its not all about the best and hardest options.
I hope, you see my point here as well. Cool

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 20:36

@Zenotaph wrote:
They do have value. WS2+, AP-3 with woundroll of 6, +1Ld. It is a boost. And be honest, with point costs as low as ours,
you for sure can afford it.

As for the Cult of Strife: Some people play just for fun, not to dish out damage, no matter what. I prefer Cult of the cursed Blade.
It just suits my Fluff, when I got the time to write some. And they are still good enough to do their job.

While I'm not entirely convinced by Bloodbrides, you are right in terms of points cost.
+20% might sound like a lot of extra cost, but it's really just +10% extra cost.

Wyches only become functional with a Raider and factoring that into their cost you look at a price hike of 185pts to 205pts.

I just wish Bloodbrides had something more reliable, such as +1A or a 5++ out of combat.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeThu May 06 2021, 12:17

[quote="The Strange Dark One"]
@Zenotaph wrote:

While I'm not entirely convinced by Bloodbrides, you are right in terms of points cost.
+20% might sound like a lot of extra cost, but it's really just +10% extra cost.

Wyches only become functional with a Raider and factoring that into their cost you look at a price hike of 185pts to 205pts.

Thats an interesting point of view. Never thought to include the mandatory Raider. I guess if you include the Succubus (which would probably be a Master anyway) the % increase is actually pretty low.

What are you guys targeting with your Wyches/Bloodbrides? So far in my games I generally use 5 man wych units for taking out small chaff, deep striking for Scramblers (WWP), or just general point grabbing. 10 man wych squads take on large chaff, wrap enemy boats, or have the potential to be buffed by the amazing CoS Strats from the Book of Rust (have not actually done this yet, so far just a potential threat).

Anything heavy gets hit by the DT Liquifiers, Incubi, or a Succubus in my experience.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeThu May 06 2021, 12:54

@fisheyes wrote:
10 man wych squads take on large chaff, wrap enemy boats, or have the potential to be buffed by the amazing CoS Strats from the Book of Rust (have not actually done this yet, so far just a potential threat).

Anything heavy gets hit by the DT Liquifiers, Incubi, or a Succubus in my experience.

Ähem, since I really dont know, I just have to ask: Is this sarcasm?

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeThu May 06 2021, 14:24

@Zenotaph wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
10 man wych squads take on large chaff, wrap enemy boats, or have the potential to be buffed by the amazing CoS Strats from the Book of Rust (have not actually done this yet, so far just a potential threat).

Anything heavy gets hit by the DT Liquifiers, Incubi, or a Succubus in my experience.

Ähem, since I really dont know, I just have to ask: Is this sarcasm?

What part? The 10 man wych squad attacking large chaff units (nurgle demon dudes, PoF Wrack blobs, Necron Warriors, etc), CoS Strats being amazing, or hitting enemy heavies with DT/Incubi/Succubi?

No sarcasm here.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeThu May 06 2021, 14:33

We have a really strong Codex with lots and lots of possibilities. And you choose BoR Cult of Stryfe and DT Liquifier?

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeThu May 06 2021, 18:40

@Zenotaph wrote:
We have a really strong Codex with lots and lots of possibilities. And you choose BoR Cult of Stryfe and DT Liquifier?

Ah. Now I understand you.

Absolutely. I recently joined a competitive gaming group, and its full throttle all the way. I would not bring this to a random game at the LGS, but in a competitive Tournament environment with all sorts of Forgeworld/Superheavies/etc, anything goes. I got under 50% win rate right now XD
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeThu May 06 2021, 18:56

Well, the understanding is now equally on both sides. Very Happy Very Happy

Since I am just a fun&fluff player, for me, those choices are, how to put this non offensive, close to cheating.

Oh boy, I really hope, my grammar isnt too bad here...

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeThu May 06 2021, 22:33

We're really talking about a difference of 10 points if you go with 10 Bloodbrides. I'm biased, but i don't see the point in sinking 15 points for Master Succubus, and 10 for 5 Bloodbrides just to get cheap at the end. If you're going for Bloodbrides, go for the full experience. 10, full Wych Weapons, Power Sword or Agonizer.

@fisheyes wrote:

What are you guys targeting with your Wyches/Bloodbrides? So far in my games I generally use 5 man wych units for taking out small chaff, deep striking for Scramblers (WWP), or just general point grabbing. 10 man wych squads take on large chaff, wrap enemy boats, or have the potential to be buffed by the amazing CoS Strats from the Book of Rust (have not actually done this yet, so far just a potential threat).

My Bloodbrides are vehicle and monster hunters. They work well on Death Guard, too. S3 doesn't care about T5, and all my attacks are D1, anyway. Wyches are good at killing just about anything, short of Deathwing Knights. There's a few scenarios like Defensible Heavy Cover that causes problems. But, really, they either charge at full strength and massacre whatever they touch, or get slaughtered by small arms fire.

@Azdrubael wrote:
Skari keep saying bloodbrides are redundant...most of the targets have invul and we do get WS2+ at turn 3.

Im still sold on them.

Everything he said against Bloodbrides is true of Incubi, as well. I'd argue Incubi face more challenges than Bloodbrides against Death Guard and Dark Angels. Bloodbrides are significantly more customizable, and Troops. Your Archon selection i going to color this, as well. I just don't see them in competition with one another, aside from thinking melee is melee. The maths they use are totally different.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches   10 Bloodbrides and 5 Wyches or 5 Bloodbrides and 10 Wyches I_icon_minitimeFri May 07 2021, 19:42

@albions-angel want to chime in here? Any of this discussion helping your discision making?
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