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 FAQ - Our hopes and fears

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Vailex
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Kalmah
Wych
Kalmah

Posts : 547
Join date : 2020-08-21
Location : Montréal

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ - Our hopes and fears   FAQ - Our hopes and fears - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 26 2021, 17:31

The razor's edge combo fos Succubus will be nerfed, that's no secret at all
The Reavers will officially go back to 20, no secret there neither

on more subtle notes:


For my part, the Huskblade could go down to 0pts for the Archon, that's the only thing it needs to be played IMO, knowing that its almost always switched for the Djinn Blade anyway

I don't see why our extra 2 cps would be nerfed, i don't think that puts us in a broken seat.

The stratagem ''Murderous Descent'' i think should be changed to allow its use (make it 2cp) after our transport has moved, not only after the transport has been set up on the battlefield (i mean.....why???? why not just put the models from the transport into reserve already? is there something i'm missing? the extra 3'' for disembarking?)

quickly off the top of my head, this is what i'd love to see changed in the faq (if there's any)


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HERO
Hekatrix
HERO

Posts : 1057
Join date : 2012-04-13

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ - Our hopes and fears   FAQ - Our hopes and fears - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 26 2021, 19:09

@Cerve wrote:
Hellions at 20
Succubus at 75
Raiders at 105

And that's all for point costs.

That's a bit obtuse, Succubus, yes, Raider, I don't think so.

It's not the Raiders that are value, it's some of the units that are exceeding typical damage/cost ratios. Succy, Incubi, Wyches, DT Wracks, specifically. Hellions and Reavers are for sure being watched, but not under the immediate eye.

GW has to be extremely, extremely careful about overreacting to points hikes. You can instantly defeat the entire book's design if you go from glasshammer/cannon to glasspillow.

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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve

Posts : 1197
Join date : 2014-10-05
Location : Ferrara - Emiglia Romagna

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ - Our hopes and fears   FAQ - Our hopes and fears - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 26 2021, 19:39

@HERO wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Hellions at 20
Succubus at 75
Raiders at 105

And that's all for point costs.

That's a bit obtuse, Succubus, yes, Raider, I don't think so.

It's not the Raiders that are value, it's some of the units that are exceeding typical damage/cost ratios. Succy, Incubi, Wyches, DT Wracks, specifically. Hellions and Reavers are for sure being watched, but not under the immediate eye.

GW has to be extremely, extremely careful about overreacting to points hikes. You can instantly defeat the entire book's design if you go from glasshammer/cannon to glasspillow.


An Incubi at 16 points is ok if you field them on foot.
Is the Raider that makes them scary, which cost 85 points.
85....think about a Rhino, 80 points. Wanna laugh? Think about the Impulsor.
Costs in points are written for the units themselves. A Wych on 10 points it's absolutely ok if you think about her alone. 10 Wyches on foot are ok for 100 points.
But when you can embark them into a super durable (yes it is), faster, flyer, super cheap transport, with an antitank gun that will reroll to hit or wound most of the time...well in THAT case, Wyches are broken. As Incubi are.

But it's not their cost, because even if they trade well potentially, they will die super fast on foot. It's the Raider that makes their "possible" into "reality".
There's not other transport good as the Raider in the entire game, because of his stupid cost. It is super cheap!
Our infantry can actually trade only because of the Raider.  Try to play them on foot, or try to use Venoms, you will se a drastic decline in powercreep.


Hellions are ok in my opinion, not because they are, but because it's ok for every faction have 1-2 "signature" units which can cost a bit less than their respective value just for forcing players playing them. For example, Sanguinary Guards are stupidly good for 30 points. They should be 35, but it's not broken and they are fine because it's actually GOOD watching BA playing their signature units. It would be bad watching BA playing just Bladeguards as every other chapter. So in this case it's fine, they are super good but far from being actually broken. So it's ok if GW keeps Hellions at 17 points just because is good on a flavour perspective seeing them on DE lists. They're not broken, they're just good, it's fine. Even the Succubus at 60-75 points it's ok (not the razorflail one, that's a bug) because it is one and it can be another signature unit.
But Raiders...no, Raiders are a mistake. I get that the boats can be "signatures" for us, but in this case it IS too much. They're just an insanely good multiplier for our entire infantry, making them from "fine, hard hitting but fragile" to "oh my god I can't stop them! they will arrive anyway!".

In addition, it's good to remember the entire sight of the list. If Gw will bump up everything, we will going to play with +300/400 points! They must not do that. If you just price the Raider as you price the Rhino/Impulsor you will figure the Raider at 100-105 points. So 6 Raiders will be +100/120 point-ish overall which is already fine. You will not play 60 Hellions anyway, so even keeping them at 17 and the Succubus at 60 you will play with those added points anyway.
And you can't say like "oh well, I will switch Venoms then", because Wyches and Trueborns get their weapons at 10 models, and because you will definitely spend way more points carrying the same amount of units with Venoms, which is a nerf per sè.


The Raider is what really broke us, in terms of points. Imho.
PS: precisely because we need to mantain this glasshammer potential, GW shouldn't touch our infantry, just the transports.
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sweetbacon
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sweetbacon

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ - Our hopes and fears   FAQ - Our hopes and fears - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 26 2021, 21:41

Let’s all recall the eye watering points hikes we received at the start of 9th edition.  It made the army almost unplayable in a competitive setting.  Goonhammer did an article at the time that calculated we received the largest points hike relative to our base costs of any army in the game.  Point costs are a very blunt instrument for balance and can have many unintended second and third order effects on how the army functions.  I caution anyone advocating for any points hikes to recall how ham-fisted GW is with points adjustments when calling for any of our units to get adjusted upwards.  GW often uses a chainsaw when a scalpel is called for.

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HERO
Hekatrix
HERO

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ - Our hopes and fears   FAQ - Our hopes and fears - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 26 2021, 23:27

@sweetbacon wrote:
Let’s all recall the eye watering points hikes we received at the start of 9th edition.  It made the army almost unplayable in a competitive setting.  Goonhammer did an article at the time that calculated we received the largest points hike relative to our base costs of any army in the game.  Point costs are a very blunt instrument for balance and can have many unintended second and third order effects on how the army functions.  I caution anyone advocating for any points hikes to recall how ham-fisted GW is with points adjustments when calling for any of our units to get adjusted upwards.  GW often uses a chainsaw when a scalpel is called for.

Exactly this. It's literally the difference between the army being competitive to the army being borderline unplayable.

I think in order for us to be realistic about FAQ vs. Chapter Approved, it's these two things:
The FAQ will be soon, and will address problematic wording issues, that's it. Semi-related to balance, will be to address the CE + Razors interaction. Another one that stands out is whether or not Incubi's ASL can be used for as many units have that ability (with no limit).

For Chapter Approved, I am not expecting any redesigns. I am expecting point changes. Remember what I said before about cost-effectiveness and the reason WHY DE is now functionally effective AS PER THEIR DESIGN in all these years. The chief of which is damage ratio for ppm. As soon as they begin frak with that equation, I become dubious. It has to be handled very, very carefully or else we're screwed.

PS - You cannot compare a Rhino with a Raider just by raw points alone. The only thing they share in function is that they're dedicated transports, that's literally it. It would be like comparing a Kabalite to a Guardsman. There's so many other factors to consider, chief of which is what army they're in.

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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ - Our hopes and fears   FAQ - Our hopes and fears - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 27 2021, 07:09

@sweetbacon wrote:
Let’s all recall the eye watering points hikes we received at the start of 9th edition.  It made the army almost unplayable in a competitive setting.  Goonhammer did an article at the time that calculated we received the largest points hike relative to our base costs of any army in the game.  Point costs are a very blunt instrument for balance and can have many unintended second and third order effects on how the army functions.  I caution anyone advocating for any points hikes to recall how ham-fisted GW is with points adjustments when calling for any of our units to get adjusted upwards.  GW often uses a chainsaw when a scalpel is called for.


What?...those points were the points of this new Codex. It got delayed for Covid, but it should have being on January, with the Munitorium patch. We just got the patch instead, and the Codex went on April.
That's why they werent red, but black as normal, because they are the same points from this Codex.

January points were not a balance for the old Codex. That's why them makes us unplayable.
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sweetbacon
Wych
sweetbacon

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ - Our hopes and fears   FAQ - Our hopes and fears - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 27 2021, 14:49

@Cerve wrote:
@sweetbacon wrote:
Let’s all recall the eye watering points hikes we received at the start of 9th edition.  It made the army almost unplayable in a competitive setting.  Goonhammer did an article at the time that calculated we received the largest points hike relative to our base costs of any army in the game.  Point costs are a very blunt instrument for balance and can have many unintended second and third order effects on how the army functions.  I caution anyone advocating for any points hikes to recall how ham-fisted GW is with points adjustments when calling for any of our units to get adjusted upwards.  GW often uses a chainsaw when a scalpel is called for.


What?...those points were the points of this new Codex. It got delayed for Covid, but it should have being on January, with the Munitorium patch. We just got the patch instead, and the Codex went on April.
That's why they werent red, but black as normal, because they are the same points from this Codex.

January points were not a balance for the old Codex. That's why them makes us unplayable.

Not the January points. The points that released with the 9th edition rule book last July. That had Wyches and Wracks at 12ppm and Ravagers at like 180(?). Warriors at 9ppm. We got massive points hikes across the board. Those were not the points in the codex or the January adjustment.

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fisheyes
Incubi
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ - Our hopes and fears   FAQ - Our hopes and fears - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 27 2021, 19:17

I also would like further clarification for how the detatchment/obsessions work. Just to avoid feel bad moments later (can you take WLTs/Relics/use Strats/etc).

That is still a little murky.

And to reiterate:
Razorflail Succubus needs to stop. Period.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ - Our hopes and fears   FAQ - Our hopes and fears - Page 2 I_icon_minitime

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