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 Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?

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Eldur
Sybarite
Eldur

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PostSubject: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 15 2021, 12:14

So,


Given our new codex plus the Book of Rust expansion for Cult of Strife, the general consensus in many spheres is that Lelith Hesperax does not break it, or at least not when compared to Drazhar or any of the "competitive" succubi builds around like the Precision Blows+Tryptich Whip (from now on: Precision Whip*) or the infamous Competitive Edge+Razorflails+Dark Lotus (from now on: Razor's Edge*). Also, maybe due to not appreciating the size or her feet after some over-training lately at the arenas, I foresee not much play for her in the future.

HOWEVER, I'm an advocate for lost causes (or I wouldn't be playing a campaign with a full Aspect Warrior-centered army right now), so I want to really assess the real full potential of the most famous Succubus of all Commorragh. With your help and criticism, of course.


LET'S START

What is the minimum that Lelith offers (for "free")?

Basically, her stats and sole weapon (mainly 7A, 1 extra hit on 6s, WS3, S3+1, AP-3, D1), along with her already-included rules (4++, -1 to hit her, rerolls to hit and wound against characters, can fight twice on her turn or charge after advancing or falling back, consolidates 6+ in any direction, Blade Artists, Power From Pain).

So, this is a good amount of rules, already. But how does it translates into the battlefield? Defensively, thanks to Show Stealer, she can be untouchable if well played, as long as she has friendly units around. If she gets charged, she still gets to fight first thanks to CoS and has a 4++ and a -1 to be hit just in case. But this is not much unlike any other Master Succubus from CoS.

Offensively, she offers 7 attacks exploding for 1 extra on 6s to hit, hitting on 2s, wounding T4 on 4s, re-rolling only against characters (no auras for her, sadly). Also, AP -3 (-4 on 6s to wound) and D1. Really, really disappointing, even if she fights twice (14 attacks, same stats), which only activates when she kills a model in close combat.

Until here, I see no place for her competitively (or even lore-wise), as she will be ridiculed by any other Succubus (for less the cost in points).

But, what is her true potential if we give her the spotlight - and the resources in CPs - in our army?

Let's say that we give Lelith her own detachment from CoS, and make her the Warlord. Now, she explodes for 3 extra hits on 6s. Not bad, not great.

Now, if we don't mind spending CPs on her, we now have the option for rerolls against non-character units (on to-hit rolls thanks to 'Prey on the Weak' for 1CP, on to-wound rolls thanks to 'Art of the Kill' for 2CP), AND at the end of the phase, we can make her fight for a SECOND and a THIRD time by combining her own ability plus 'No Method of Death Beyond our Grasp' for 2 CP. (edit: NMoDBoG only works on Wych units, OOPSIE).

Now her 14 attacks that riple-explode on 6s to hit can be rerolled to hit and/or to wound (AP 3-4) while she jumps between units in different 6' consolidation moves in any direction. Quite fun (edit: but not as much as she would by doing 3 activations...)

Note that you can pay for the activation stratagem after she failed to kill a model (and make it easier for her to kill one and make it to the third activation).

In my case, I would spend 2-3 CPs (reroll wounds and maybe hits) any time in order to watch her jump through the enemy lines. Just remember to hide her somewhere safe after her third second activation!

Of course, you can also try to give a Razor's Edge* from CoS two activations and avoid the reroll wound thing. In fact, do not try it, DO IT (before she gets FAQed): she's a monster and should become a special character in the next book.

TL;DR: Lelith can activate two extra times while rerolling to wound against non-character units if you spend 2 CPs on her, while jumping between units like a tornado of terror whit exploding hits much like a Tesla Weapon (Edit: and also rerolling 1s potentially with Prey on the Weak). It's up to you to criticise her competitiveness or compare her to other Succubi.

P.D: If you like mathhammer, I can try some here, or maybe you can post it yourself in the comments if you're motivated enough.

*Note: feel free to suggest new names for these Succubi builds in the comments (or other builds)!!


Last edited by Eldur on Mon Apr 19 2021, 14:15; edited 4 times in total

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Drager
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 15 2021, 13:33

You can't use No Method of Death on Succubi, can you?

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Swordxart
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 17 2021, 10:29

Imo shes just bad as she deals only 1 Dmg, with fight twice that is only a maximum dmg of 14 wounds.
Compared to literally every other HQ thats just low.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 17 2021, 14:02

Actually, her maximum - albeit statistically impossible - output is 14x4=56 wounds. But you need to roll 6s on all to-hit rolls and then wound with all of them.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 18 2021, 01:36

Lelith would desperately need the Dark Lotus to improve her damage potential, or any warlord trait that boost melee weapons......as long as she wont have access to something like that, or simply an update on her stats, i dont think she'll be worth the points unless Succubus receive the nerfbat really hard

Flavorwise tough she's still an interesting model if not playing competitive, so i can easily wait for her single model release without feeling that i'm missing something

for the competitive edge+razorflail combo, i would simply call it ''Razor's Edge'' (ACDC would be proud lol) and the Precision Blow + Triptych Whip, i would simply call it ''Precise Whip''.
Not that imaginative, but really clear Wink

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Swordxart
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 18 2021, 16:13

@Eldur wrote:
Actually, her maximum - albeit statistically impossible - output is 14x4=56 wounds. But you need to roll 6s on all to-hit rolls and then wound with all of them.

How do you get to 56?
If all 14 hits where 6es that would mean 28 maximum attacks?
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 18 2021, 16:19

@Swordxart wrote:
@Eldur wrote:
Actually, her maximum - albeit statistically impossible - output is 14x4=56 wounds. But you need to roll 6s on all to-hit rolls and then wound with all of them.

How do you get to 56?
If all 14 hits where 6es that would mean 28 maximum attacks?

If she's the Warlord, she has the Blood Dancer WL trait, which stacks with the special rule her blades have. So each 6 to hit generates +3 extra hits.
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 18 2021, 22:10

@Kalmah wrote:
Lelith would desperately need the Dark Lotus to improve her damage potential, or any warlord trait that boost melee weapons......as long as she wont have access to something like that, or simply an update on her stats, i dont think she'll be worth the points unless Succubus receive the nerfbat really hard

Flavorwise tough she's still an interesting model if not playing competitive, so i can easily wait for her single model release without feeling that i'm missing something

for the competitive edge+razorflail combo, i would simply call it ''Razor's Edge'' (ACDC would be proud lol) and the Precision Blow + Triptych Whip, i would simply call it ''Precise Whip''.
Not that imaginative, but really clear Wink

Lelith would desperately need good rules

It's not that hard, they did it for Drazhar, but what in the hell happened with lelith?
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Cerve
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 19 2021, 10:31

No, Lelith doesn't worth. I would say "imo" but I guess it's a common opinion.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 19 2021, 11:27

The bonkers thing is that literally all she needed to be worth consideration still was either giving her 2 damage on her blades or letting her keep the Impaler as a weapon option.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 19 2021, 11:40

I agree. It's ludicrous to think that anyone would consider Lelith at 50% more points than a Succubus.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 19 2021, 14:13

Thans everyone for the comments!

Yeah, IMHO they should have given her some D2 on her weapons, or a "finishing move" rule so she could do multiple damage on 5-6s to wound or something like that....
...because the extra hits on 6s is not a killer move at all. Well, against characters she might have a chance, but not compared to Razor's Edge (BTW, Skari commented me that she might get FAQed soon).

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 19 2021, 16:15

No, make her broken who cares

People always say "But she's a 90 point model" as if GW can't change anything about it

Give her something like units can't fall back from her, she can double her attacks but half the damage, gets the difference in bonus attacks if the enemy unit has less attacks than she has; ignore armour saves and rerolls all hit and wounds, can only be hit on 6s in cc, then we don't have that bs with the "but we can't have a 3++ save that would be soooo op"

130 points, done

But Gw doesn't want that. Because she's in a limited box set with the shiny new army everybody wants.
And their current sales strategy is "make some for the scalpers and fans, frak the rest" a la cursed city
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not?   Lelith Hesperax - the final trial: worth it or not? I_icon_minitime

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