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 Drukhari Tier Predictions

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HERO
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 19:46

Dallas GT - Top 5/6 players running Drukhari, Sean Nayden's Aeldari list running ~1k points of Drukhari.

Key observations and insights:
- First supermajor of the year, competitive players should have had enough time to prepare and tech
- 29/30 lists running DT Wracks
- Still >70% WR

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 20:04

Well, that brings up an interesting question: With 29/30 DT lists, does that mean, other lists arent viable?
Are they only played, because its the easiest way to win? Or do we have to use glitches in our rules in order to win?

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 20:35

@Zenotaph wrote:
Well, that brings up an interesting question: With 29/30 DT lists, does that mean, other lists arent viable?
Are they only played, because its the easiest way to win? Or do we have to use glitches in our rules in order to win?

It doesn't mean other lists aren't viable, it just means that DT Wracks are by far one of the strongest performing units in our Codex.

Apparently GW's tournament team are in full on "wait and see" mode about this, because they're expecting the next few books to act as strong counters to us. We still might need toning down but Ad Mech/Orks/Sisters should rein us in slightly.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 20:45

Also, how many of the top veteran players were playing Drukhari? If all of the top players switched to Drukhari for this tournament, it stands to reason that you might see a lot of Drukhari in the top 10.

That said, I did see that, in the top list, the player was definitely using a dark lotus/ competitive edge/razorflail succubus, so that is definitely taking advantage of a glitch.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 20:49

@krayd wrote:
Also, how many of the top veteran players were playing Drukhari? If all of the top players switched to Drukhari for this tournament, it stands to reason that you might see a lot of Drukhari in the top 10.

That said, I did see that, in the top list, the player was definitely using a dark lotus/ competitive edge/razorflail succubus, so that is definitely taking advantage of a glitch.

This is a certainty valid question and one I'm going to be pretty harsh on.

A lot of the placement of players that did well with Drukhari are not DE-veterans. They follow the win-the-meta crowd and jump from book to book. Not saying at all that they're bad players in the slightest, just stating that they took "good units" from "good book" and piloted it to the podium.

I don't know about you guys, but I got into the army because they were hard to play, and very difficult to master. But we're not seeing that, instead, we're seeing auto-pilot lists driven by a combination of ASL, DT Wracks and Succubus combos basically playing themselves.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 20:56

@Zenotaph wrote:
Well, that brings up an interesting question: With 29/30 DT lists, does that mean, other lists arent viable?
Are they only played, because its the easiest way to win? Or do we have to use glitches in our rules in order to win?

The best way to identify which unit are over the top is to look at common-themes between winning lists.

These are the common themes:
> DT Wracks (biggest offender)
> Succubus (combos vary, which is a big indicator that the unit itself is too effective given the combos possible)
> Drazhar (shocker, possibly the best character in the game for the points)
> Incubi (just generally too cost-effective, especially with force multipliers)
> Raiders (almost always BH)
~ Wyches (borderline IMO, not as impactful as the above)

The above was in order, and out of all of those, I'm most careful about the Raiders getting a cost fix or something else crazy. We have always been the party boat faction and if you take them beyond affordable, we're going to inadvertently hit a lot of things that didn't need the nerfs i.e. Warriors gunboats.

So with that said, I think the fixes should be pretty straight forward on some of these.

Wracks are generally not the problem, and its specifically how auto-hit weapons like Liquidifiers work with DT. I would look at points for Liquids and its interaction with DT first, possibly both if we still feel they're too strong.

Here's my problem though, points adjustments are one of the most dangerous things about GW. They are notoriously bad at adjusting points and they can easily push the above units into something unplayable. For the first time in over a decade, we are points effective for damage:ppm. If they over adjust, we're straight up frak.

Oh, and for my biggest GW design gripe with the book: Book of Rust made the arguably best Cult even better. I wish it was Red Grief or Cursed Blade instead that received the strats/wl/relic instead. IMO, I don't think this is fixable. This is as bad as POF Coven from the last book IMO.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 21:15

Just switching DT back to being based on the wound roll rather than the hit roll might be fine, though I think that 1d3 MWs on monsters/vehicles is probably excessive, seeing as how monsters/vehicles using DT doesn't seem to be the problem.

At the very least, dark lances and disintegrators need to switch point costs. Beyond that, I wouldn't have a problem with a 10 pt increase in the raider's base cost. Though I'm not entirely sure that it's necessary.

Succubi probably need a slight point increase.

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 21:50

[quote="HERO"]
@krayd wrote:
I don't know about you guys, but I got into the army because they were hard to play, and very difficult to master. But we're not seeing that, instead, we're seeing auto-pilot lists driven by a combination of ASL, DT Wracks and Succubus combos basically playing themselves.
Actually, I began with mine at the start of 5th, because they had awesome models, they were pretty uncommon
and, for me a vital reason, they absolutely are the bad guys. Perfect to begin a new sort of game.
After building and painting the first 1000 points and playing half a dozen games, I found out,
that their posibillities were almost perfectly tailored to fit my playstyle. Not too easy to play, hard to master, but also rewarding.
Ever since then, I only do Drukhari. But I always play a fair game. No bug abuse, no glitches.
Only the mean tricks meant to be played.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 22:12

@krayd wrote:
Just switching DT back to being based on the wound roll rather than the hit roll might be fine, though I think that 1d3 MWs on monsters/vehicles is probably excessive, seeing as how monsters/vehicles using DT doesn't seem to be the problem.

I've made this point in other threads, but no, changing it to 1s on the wound roll will make no difference. People will happily risk the loss of an 8 point model with 2 poison attacks and no liquifier gun in order to eviscerate enemy units.

That suggestion, as you noted, hurts Talos/Chronos. And that is the ONLY thing that it does. People will absolutely still spam DT wracks without hesitation.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 22:24

@sekac wrote:
@krayd wrote:
Just switching DT back to being based on the wound roll rather than the hit roll might be fine, though I think that 1d3 MWs on monsters/vehicles is probably excessive, seeing as how monsters/vehicles using DT doesn't seem to be the problem.

I've made this point in other threads, but no, changing it to 1s on the wound roll will make no difference. People will happily risk the loss of an 8 point model with 2 poison attacks and no liquifier gun in order to eviscerate enemy units.

That suggestion, as you noted, hurts Talos/Chronos. And that is the ONLY thing that it does. People will absolutely still spam DT wracks without hesitation.

It wouldn't hurt Talos/Cronos so much if you removed the 1d3 MW bit. What I am implying is a switch to the wound roll *and* a removal of the extra penalty for monsters/vehicles.

And it will affect wracks, because it will affect the wrack squad's endurance over time. Losing a wrack or two to MW will make it even easier for the squad to get wiped in the counterattack.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 22:59

It is not even said, that these wounds are really lost. 5+++ fnp...

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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon May 03 2021, 23:10

Good Admech players are already a counter to these builds before they get their new book. the guy in the final game against Lennon beat 4-5 straight Drukhari lists before falling to Lennon. He even admitted he f'd up the final game by not sticking to his initial plan, and could have won.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 00:47

@krayd wrote:
@sekac wrote:
@krayd wrote:
Just switching DT back to being based on the wound roll rather than the hit roll might be fine, though I think that 1d3 MWs on monsters/vehicles is probably excessive, seeing as how monsters/vehicles using DT doesn't seem to be the problem.

I've made this point in other threads, but no, changing it to 1s on the wound roll will make no difference. People will happily risk the loss of an 8 point model with 2 poison attacks and no liquifier gun in order to eviscerate enemy units.

That suggestion, as you noted, hurts Talos/Chronos. And that is the ONLY thing that it does. People will absolutely still spam DT wracks without hesitation.

It wouldn't hurt Talos/Cronos so much if you removed the 1d3 MW bit. What I am implying is a switch to the wound roll *and* a removal of the extra penalty for monsters/vehicles.

And it will affect wracks, because it will affect the wrack squad's endurance over time. Losing a wrack or two to MW will make it even easier for the squad to get wiped in the counterattack.

Yes, it technically affects wracks, but not in a way that changes whether or not competitive lists will spam them. You can mitigate the occasional loss of a model by keeping them in Raiders. And for ones that are on foot, the difference between 4 and 5 models is not significant enough that the loss of 1 will seal their fate. Likely, whatever your opponent uses to kill them would've killed 5 as well.

Mind you, I'm not advocating nerfing them, just pointing out that this solution will do nothing to remove them from the competitive scene.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 00:58

@sekac wrote:


Mind you, I'm not advocating nerfing them, just pointing out that this solution will do nothing to remove them from the competitive scene.

The goal isn't to remove them from the competitive scene. Ideally, I'd like for all of our options to be competitive, and stay that way. The goal is to provide weaknesses to balance out the strengths.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 01:51

@krayd wrote:
@sekac wrote:


Mind you, I'm not advocating nerfing them, just pointing out that this solution will do nothing to remove them from the competitive scene.

The goal isn't to remove them from the competitive scene.  Ideally, I'd like for all of our options to be competitive, and stay that way.  The goal is to provide weaknesses to balance out the strengths.

And that's my point. The proposed weakness in no way balances out their strength. It is more of a weakness than now, but they would still be the most competitive coven by a lot, just as they are now. The gap would be narrowed a tiny bit, but competitive lists will continue taking them instead of other covens.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 04:21

i played this week end with a list focusing entirely on the DT liquifier combo, and i agree that it would need to be back to the wound roll instead of hit roll just so that the combo still exist and is playable, but not broken as it is right now. And the price is not that high, and our friends will less groan when you play with it lol

And i totally agree that the MW should stay at 1 even for monster or whatever hold the gun.
The penalty is still accountable but we can still find a lot of ways to heal those damage.

Playable, even strong, but not broken, and i think that's where we want to be
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 08:48

For me, Liquefiers Wracks are territying only when on Raiders.

As always, it's the boat that makes everything broken.
I think that with +20/25 points per Raider, DT will.be fine as it is now.
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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 10:16

That feels excessive in the extreme.

As for DT, maybe it would be best to just limit how many you can take in a unit, remove it from the Acothyst.

If Liquifier spam is a problem, limit how many can be taken.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 10:28

I'm still mystified as to how none of this came out in playtesting. It feels like GW have gone back to their old methods of "Well, it was fine in our friendly narrative games" rather than telling the most competitive players to try breaking the game. I'm far from the cutting edge of the competitive scene but it took me all of 2 seconds to think that DT with autohit weapons would be quite nice.

Incidentally, according to the GW app, Drazhar cannot be taken in a DT Patrol and you cannot have 2 liquifiers in a 5-man wrack unit (yes, one is on the Acothyst). Either GW is getting their fix in early or (more likely) the app is crap.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 10:50

@Yziel wrote:
That feels excessive in the extreme.


I'll repeat:

A Rhino 80 points
A Raider 85 points
An Impulsor 125 points

THIS is excessive. A Raider should cost 105 points ALMOST, if you consider that is straightfoward better in everything than the Impulsor.

At 110 point you will get the differences between the Raider and the Venom.
Take up these, and give +30 to the Succubus, and you have it: standard DE loadouts will play with -200 points which is precisely what we need to being fixed and keeping us on Tier1.
You don't need to nerf DT, you have to cut off 200ish points from the build. That's it.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 10:57

But in a RTS, when a new race/faction is added, they generally win for a few weeks the time the other players learns how to counter it efficiently.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 11:14

@dumpeal wrote:
But in a RTS, when a new race/faction is added, they generally win for a few weeks the time the other players learns how to counter it efficiently.
Sure, but we are talking Drukhari here. They are somewhat like the unwanted stepson.
Or the ugly old uncle, no one wants to invite for thanksgiving.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 11:19

@Cerve wrote:
@Yziel wrote:
That feels excessive in the extreme.


I'll repeat:

A Rhino 80 points
A Raider 85 points
An Impulsor 125 points

THIS is excessive. A Raider should cost 105 points ALMOST, if you consider that is straightfoward better in everything than the Impulsor.

At 110 point you will get the differences between the Raider and the Venom.
Take up these, and give +30 to the Succubus, and you have it: standard DE loadouts will play with -200 points which is precisely what we need to being fixed and keeping us on Tier1.
You don't need to nerf DT, you have to cut off 200ish points from the build. That's it.

This is a terrible way to balance games.

First of all we SHOULD have better transports, it's part of the faction identity.

Secondly when was the last time you saw any Space Marine army take a Rhino or Impulsor? So far I haven't seen them once in 9th. They should be better, the Raider shouldn't be worse (I don't mind a slight bump to the DL to make it compete with Dissi) if you're going to balance like that why not nerf everything down to Craftworld standards if you're going to compare units.

The only people taking Rhinos is SoB and after hanging around their discord (when I wanted to play them, sold my collection now) no one wants to take them, there's just no better options if you want Repentia who are basically mandatory. I saw multiple people try to shave them down to 6 squads so they could take Immolators instead because Rhinos are garbage.

I think it's a terrible comparrison.

You might not need to nerf DT if you take 200pts out the army but you'd nerf basically every list by 200pts and you'd still have DT spam because it's still better than the other builds since they all need the transports.

This is not just an external balance issue, it's an internal balance issue as well.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 11:26

I didn't read all the conversation. I read some bits. But for what I think, I don't think there is a problem with dark eldars. We win simply everybody CHOOSE to build heavy anti-elite, anti SM lists. We are easy to counter if they choose the right tools. But they don't want, because DG are too good to fight against except you tailor your complete list against them. Maybe the meta wouldn't be this stiff if that changed.
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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 11:31

I agree partially but some things are defintely overtuned.

To me previous post I also just realized CSM have Rhinos and it's my main faction, I own 2, there's not reason to run them.

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