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 Drukhari Tier Predictions

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Kalmah
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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 12:13

@Yziel wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@Yziel wrote:
That feels excessive in the extreme.


I'll repeat:

A Rhino 80 points
A Raider 85 points
An Impulsor 125 points

THIS is excessive. A Raider should cost 105 points ALMOST, if you consider that is straightfoward better in everything than the Impulsor.

At 110 point you will get the differences between the Raider and the Venom.
Take up these, and give +30 to the Succubus, and you have it: standard DE loadouts will play with -200 points which is precisely what we need to being fixed and keeping us on Tier1.
You don't need to nerf DT, you have to cut off 200ish points from the build. That's it.

This is a terrible way to balance games.

First of all we SHOULD have better transports, it's part of the faction identity.

Secondly when was the last time you saw any Space Marine army take a Rhino or Impulsor? So far I haven't seen them once in 9th. They should be better, the Raider shouldn't be worse (I don't mind a slight bump to the DL to make it compete with Dissi) if you're going to balance like that why not nerf everything down to Craftworld standards if you're going to compare units.

The only people taking Rhinos is SoB and after hanging around their discord (when I wanted to play them, sold my collection now) no one wants to take them, there's just no better options if you want Repentia who are basically mandatory. I saw multiple people try to shave them down to 6 squads so they could take Immolators instead because Rhinos are garbage.

I think it's a terrible comparrison.

You might not need to nerf DT if you take 200pts out the army but you'd nerf basically every list by 200pts  and you'd still have DT spam because it's still better than the other builds since they all need the transports.

This is not just an external balance issue, it's an internal balance issue as well.


This is fantasy. No one will ever spam DT becasue no one is doing that right now that we're broken. It's the same about Incubi: everyone run 3x5, no one run 3x10. Because it's not true that spam is the most competitive way to build a list, quite the opposite.

SM don't use Rhino beacuse there are no old marine units good enough to being embarked.
And they don't use Impulsors, because GW nerfs them in too many ways AND the meta never asked for a MSU transport lists before us. It's simple.


And, again, no we shouldn't have the best trasports in the game, and there's a LIMIT on that. Take every other transports in the game: no one will beat the Raider at 85 points.
85 points for that unit is just too less. Force multiplier or not, I don't even care, it's just straightfoward too less.
The cost of a unit should represent the unit's value on the table. The single unit value only. 60 points for 5 LiqueWracks are not so bad per sé, if you try to list them on foot. Sure, for 1 CP you can put 3x3 of them in reserves, but still nothing unbeatable/uncounterable.
But if you have the Raider at 85 (a Venom with 2 Cannons is 85 points too, c'mon!), an open topped transport that grants you 10 ablative wounds with T6 4+/6++ who can:
-Take -1 to hit for 1 CP
-Advance up to 22" for 1 CP
-Move 14", shoot (usually rerolling that hit), move againt up to 7" and grants 21"+12" range for your flamers
-Leave the board any turn for 1CP
-Coming in, and deploy all his cargo for 1 CP

for 85 points? Really? C'mon, it's just absurdly good. They need a raise up in points.





BUT, my tought is: if GW overreact and begin to nerf us on all fronts, then we will have another Impulsor effect, which was amazing before, and now it's just nearly trash. Imho, both Raiders and Impulsors should be 105 points. Maybe the Raiders could be 110 because it is soo good. But yeah, Impulsor at 125 is too much.

Anyway, you can compare every transport in the game, nothing beat the Raider for his cost/effect.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 12:21

Sorry! 4+/5++. At least when shot at. Twisted Evil

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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 12:50

Quote :

This is fantasy. No one will ever spam DT becasue no one is doing that right now that we're broken. It's the same about Incubi: everyone run 3x5, no one run 3x10. Because it's not true that spam is the most competitive way to build a list, quite the opposite.

SM don't use Rhino beacuse there are no old marine units good enough to being embarked.
And they don't use Impulsors, because GW nerfs them in too many ways AND the meta never asked for a MSU transport lists before us. It's simple.


And, again, no we shouldn't have the best trasports in the game, and there's a LIMIT on that. Take every other transports in the game: no one will beat the Raider at 85 points.
85 points for that unit is just too less.  Force multiplier or not, I don't even care, it's just straightfoward too less.
The cost of a unit should represent the unit's value on the table. The single unit value only. 60 points for 5 LiqueWracks are not so bad per sé, if you try to list them on foot. Sure, for 1 CP you can put 3x3 of them in reserves, but still nothing unbeatable/uncounterable.
But if you have the Raider at 85 (a Venom with 2 Cannons is 85 points too, c'mon!), an open topped transport that grants you 10 ablative wounds with T6 4+/6++ who can:
-Take -1 to hit for 1 CP
-Advance up to 22" for 1 CP
-Move 14", shoot (usually rerolling that hit), move againt up to 7" and grants 21"+12" range for your flamers
-Leave the board any turn for 1CP
-Coming in, and deploy all his cargo for 1 CP

for 85 points? Really? C'mon, it's just absurdly good. They need a raise up in points.





BUT, my tought is: if GW overreact and begin to nerf us on all fronts, then we will have another Impulsor effect, which was amazing before, and now it's just nearly trash. Imho, both Raiders and Impulsors should be 105 points. Maybe the Raiders could be 110 because it is soo good. But yeah, Impulsor at 125 is too much.

Anyway, you can compare every transport in the game, nothing beat the Raider for his cost/effect.

I'm not particularly interested in discussing the semantics of spamming so I'll skip that one ,as many as you are allowed in a list works for me.

Do we agree that Rhinos and Impulsors are bad and shouldn't be the blueprint for a well balanced transport excellent.

I'll also reiterate that Chaos Rhinos are equally awful and if Reptentia were worse Sisters wouldn't take them either.

We should want to take Raiders and Venoms because (at least I feel) our intended playstyle is a fast flying raiding force.

Game balance between faction never have and never will be 1-1 translations and they are not intended to be. DG should be tank for their points, SM should do everything efficently, IG should have low ppm costs, Tau shooting/overwatch should be better, we should be faster with better transports.

That's how you make interesting games.

We don't have T4, 3+ saves or spammed 36" guns anything like that. We have really good transports that need to get cracked to get to the goodies within.

Transports or our speed should not be the focus of nerfs just like our durability shouldn't be the focus of buffs if our army had come out overcosted.

A better way to tone down our army would be to increase the cost of everything or target specific outliers outside our main playstyle such as Incubi, Drazar and the like.

Target nerfing Raiders is one of the worst ways of dealing with the issues.

Now personally that wouldn't be a dealbreaker if they did do it, if poor game design was a major concern I wouldn't be playing 40k. I find the idea that is should be the focus very silly though.

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Sess
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 16:22

Drukhari just seem utterly overpowered now. We are at iron hands levels like in 8th. Though iron hands was at the tail end of an edition while drukhari is early on. I still think GW should nerf us somehow, unless all the codexes from now on will be as power creeped as ours which would leave necrons and marines in the dust.

As for nerfs, raiders probably need a cost increase by like 15-20 points. Dark technomancers should get a nerf, maybe for auto hitting guns like liquifier guns they should just overheat on 1s to wound instead. They should get rid of the 2 free CP from playing patrols as well, I don't see any reason for us to just get more CP than other armies just for building a regular list. Incubi should probably go up like 3 or 4 points, its pretty silly they didn't go up in the transition to the 9th ed codex. The super succubus should be FAQed to not work, for those who don't know, its razorflails combined with the competitive edge warlord trait from the book of rust, where every attack that doesn't inflict a wound lets you make another attack which means 2 extra attack for razorflails. Even with those nerfs, it will be hard to nerf us in other ways as we just have the best of everything. All the stuff to make enemy units fight last, our amazing stratagems, and so much more together still make us super powerful. I'm not sure how they really address that without raising the points a bit on several units. I think as things are now you can play with like a 200 point deficit over the enemy in a 2000 point game and still be wrecking people.

Its really at the point where I feel guilty about playing my drukhari army and my friends also don't feel super excited to play against it either. Also saw a video which had some high competitive players discussing it, and they mention that top players building lists specifically to counter drukhari still can't get more than like a 50% win rate. Video here for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D62dY__dbUg/watch?v=D62dY__dbUg
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 16:31

The super-succubus is clearly a glitch that I expect to be FAQd out.

Is the two 'free' CP from taking patrols also more a glitch, rather than 'working as intended'?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 16:59

@krayd wrote:
Is the two 'free' CP from taking patrols also more a glitch, rather than 'working as intended'?

For me, this is another one that falls into the category of "If the playtesters didn't pick it up, you need new playtesters".

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 17:08

Well, we are in a unique position, having much units that have 2 great advantages:
1. They are cheap. As in really cheap. Like we could almost outnumber any mass army.
2. Much of those relatively cheap units are very good at battling more costly elite units.

OK, make it 3 advantages: Raiders!

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 17:41

About the 2CP bonus for our Patrol, what i would suggest so that we can keep it is our patrol detachments can't have the same family subfaction than another.
Like you can't have two patrol detachment Cult of Strife, you will need one Cult of Strife and the other would be Red Grief as an example.

A lot of time i do my list and start with a battalion before splitting it in 2 smaller patrol detachment just for the 2 +CPs, but if i absolutely needs to change my family for the second patrol detachment, i will have a choice to make: all my models have the buff that i want or do i split my eggs and gain 2CPs?
Now, that would ''complicate'' a little bit our lists, with the Fast and Heavy slots being limited, thus the 2CPs would mean something.

I know this is no big deal here, but again, we want to still be playable, not go back to where we where before the release of our codex......you know? ''GW doesnt care about us'' and all this kind of nonsenses we heard for months.......remember?

Cause if GW where to follow every nerfs we read here..........damn! might as well get us back on the unplayable train and start hearing cries everywhere........i know that for DRukhari that is sweet music to our ears......but...

We just need to deal with the famous glitches (Razor's edge Succubus and DT), for the rest its only a matter of minor twists and rewording IMO.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 19:26

@Kalmah wrote:
...

I know this is no big deal here, but again, we want to still be playable, not go back to where we where before the release of our codex......you know? ''GW doesnt care about us'' and all this kind of nonsenses we heard for months.......remember?

Cause if GW where to follow every nerfs we read here..........damn! might as well get us back on the unplayable train and start hearing cries everywhere........i know that for DRukhari that is sweet music to our ears......but...

We just need to deal with the famous glitches (Razor's edge Succubus and DT), for the rest its only a matter of minor twists  and rewording IMO.

Very much agreed. Our codex is strong, it breaks heavily with the MEQ meta and it has a couple overpowered dynamics which are likely unintentional. I'm pretty certain that if Admech or Sisters were released instead of our codex the situation would be the same.

The knee-jerks will always follow the meta and since so many people play on TTS you can do that with the push of a button.

The worst thing that could happen now is that we are actually nerfed and then forgotten, while the meta keeps being this deadly or gets even worse.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 19:36

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
The worst thing that could happen now is that we are actually nerfed and then forgotten, while the meta keeps being this deadly or gets even worse.

Very much this. Ad Mech are next, Sisters are right after them. Let's see what sort of power level they represent. If they are of a similar power level to us, it would be better to buff the few preceding codexes rather than nerf every new codex.

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 20:18

@Count Adhemar that's exactly my thinking right now, cause i can bet a few bucks that those 2 next Codexes will be insane, even in comparison to us AS WE ARE RIGHT NOW!

So as you say, FAQ's up the SM and Necrons (and DG if needed) but don't drop down everything before releasing another insane Codex (because we know those two will be insane)
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue May 04 2021, 21:21

@Sess wrote:
Drukhari just seem utterly overpowered now. We are at iron hands levels like in 8th. Though iron hands was at the tail end of an edition while drukhari is early on. I still think GW should nerf us somehow, unless all the codexes from now on will be as power creeped as ours which would leave necrons and marines in the dust.

As for nerfs, raiders probably need a cost increase by like 15-20 points. Dark technomancers should get a nerf, maybe for auto hitting guns like liquifier guns they should just overheat on 1s to wound instead. They should get rid of the 2 free CP from playing patrols as well, I don't see any reason for us to just get more CP than other armies just for building a regular list. Incubi should probably go up like 3 or 4 points, its pretty silly they didn't go up in the transition to the 9th ed codex. The super succubus should be FAQed to not work, for those who don't know, its razorflails combined with the competitive edge warlord trait from the book of rust, where every attack that doesn't inflict a wound lets you make another attack which means 2 extra attack for razorflails. Even with those nerfs, it will be hard to nerf us in other ways as we just have the best of everything. All the stuff to make enemy units fight last, our amazing stratagems, and so much more together still make us super powerful. I'm not sure how they really address that without raising the points a bit on several units. I think as things are now you can play with like a 200 point deficit over the enemy in a 2000 point game and still be wrecking people.

Its really at the point where I feel guilty about playing my drukhari army and my friends also don't feel super excited to play against it either. Also saw a video which had some high competitive players discussing it, and they mention that top players building lists specifically to counter drukhari still can't get more than like a 50% win rate. Video here for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D62dY__dbUg/watch?v=D62dY__dbUg

Jim's not wrong in the slightest. Not even in the slightest. A lot of the same arguments are what I've been iterating in this chat forever, since Page 1.

Good, competitive players will have some kind of foresight and predictions for the army itself and the matchups it face. The "Can you win a GT with this book?" will be in the forefront of everyone's thoughts that plays on a competitive level.

These same players are also the ones who will adapt the most quickly, find the Tech and employ it in scenarios and most importantly, test out their theories. Playtesting and vetting your theories is highly important.

I've been playing the "I told you so" card in almost every thread and you guys can crap on me for it. My original theories was before I got in games with the DE book. After 27 games and no losses, and in chats with some of the best DE players, I can for sure tell you that some things are just out of wack. Not the Raider, god no for reasons already mentioned, but there's more glaring problems that stand out above the Raider.

The fact of the matter is, I've been waiting for data to come in to confirm my predictions. The data is now here. There's thousands of games logged on BCP and hundreds of competitive GT-level participants now echoing the same thing. We should not move the milestones for "wait and see" and "people haven't adapted", that notion is bullshit. The best players in the game adapt very quickly. As a top-level player, that's something that you must do. Having played RTS on a pro-level, you essentially adjusted yourself after every game played through replays. This is also done in every player house. The best players had their chance to adjust, especially after the first weekend where DE placed top in several GT-level events, but even more so in Dallas where it is the first supermajor of the year. This basically just confirms what I've been saying forever: Drukhari are not only Tier1 but a meta-defining top of Tier1 army.

Lastly, its the players who play these armies. A playerhouse like AOW is always going to meta-chase the army who has the highest chance to win. John Lenon, the GT winner, does not even play Drukhari. This should immediately set off a red flag about the army. The dude literally netlisted, tested it against other great players, and concluded that without any prior exp, this book hs the highest chance to win the GT. He piloted it through straights wins and came out on top.

I think this itself says it all. It's also one of the reasons why I've functionally "retired" the army until the first round of fixes come in. I absolutely loathe putting my table down and without thought, someone automatically thinks that I'm "that guy" who puts DE on the table. I got into this army because it was niche, it was difficult to play, but incredibly potent when mastered. That's why for the last 10 or so years I've been writing strategy and tactics for the army. I don't feel like I'm living that life any more because the book is so good. Instead, people think my wins come from just the book being good (I don't take Wracks or broken Succy), and just can't admit that they're being outplayed.

OK, this is a bit of a rant, but I think my argument is sound. Either way, I'm taking a break, going to play my Daemons for a while and see what happens. Hell, I've already been avoiding DE mirrors because I'm just so sick of seeing them and I want to join the meta of "people against DE" for a while, just for a change.

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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 10:31

Yeah I'm not really rushing to get my army on the table and Belakor on the horizon has made me excited about playing my CSM again (even though I don't know anything about his army) so ai'm playing with what I have for now Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 12:48

@HERO wrote:


Jim's not wrong in the slightest. Not even in the slightest. A lot of the same arguments are what I've been iterating in this chat forever, since Page 1.

Good, competitive players will have some kind of foresight and predictions for the army itself and the matchups it face. The "Can you win a GT with this book?" will be in the forefront of everyone's thoughts that plays on a competitive level.

These same players are also the ones who will adapt the most quickly, find the Tech and employ it in scenarios and most importantly, test out their theories. Playtesting and vetting your theories is highly important.

I've been playing the "I told you so" card in almost every thread and you guys can crap on me for it. My original theories was before I got in games with the DE book. After 27 games and no losses, and in chats with some of the best DE players, I can for sure tell you that some things are just out of wack. Not the Raider, god no for reasons already mentioned, but there's more glaring problems that stand out above the Raider.

The fact of the matter is, I've been waiting for data to come in to confirm my predictions. The data is now here. There's thousands of games logged on BCP and hundreds of competitive GT-level participants now echoing the same thing. We should not move the milestones for "wait and see" and "people haven't adapted", that notion is bullshit. The best players in the game adapt very quickly. As a top-level player, that's something that you must do. Having played RTS on a pro-level, you essentially adjusted yourself after every game played through replays. This is also done in every player house. The best players had their chance to adjust, especially after the first weekend where DE placed top in several GT-level events, but even more so in Dallas where it is the first supermajor of the year. This basically just confirms what I've been saying forever: Drukhari are not only Tier1 but a meta-defining top of Tier1 army.

Lastly, its the players who play these armies. A playerhouse like AOW is always going to meta-chase the army who has the highest chance to win. John Lenon, the GT winner, does not even play Drukhari. This should immediately set off a red flag about the army. The dude literally netlisted, tested it against other great players, and concluded that without any prior exp, this book hs the highest chance to win the GT. He piloted it through straights wins and came out on top.

I think this itself says it all. It's also one of the reasons why I've functionally "retired" the army until the first round of fixes come in. I absolutely loathe putting my table down and without thought, someone automatically thinks that I'm "that guy" who puts DE on the table. I got into this army because it was niche, it was difficult to play, but incredibly potent when mastered. That's why for the last 10 or so years I've been writing strategy and tactics for the army. I don't feel like I'm living that life any more because the book is so good. Instead, people think my wins come from just the book being good (I don't take Wracks or broken Succy), and just can't admit that they're being outplayed.

OK, this is a bit of a rant, but I think my argument is sound. Either way, I'm taking a break, going to play my Daemons for a while and see what happens. Hell, I've already been avoiding DE mirrors because I'm just so sick of seeing them and I want to join the meta of "people against DE" for a while, just for a change.

I don't think you really need to put the army down Hero. This is the first book since 5th edition where it plays like the fluff. You already avoid the broken parts by not doing a razor succubus. Just play 12 cp for patrols and raise your raiders by 10 points. That's what I am doing. What I am trying to push back against is overreaction getting to GW then they bring the nerfhammer down too hard on us like they did to other units/armies. We are winning close to IH levels but for different reasons.

1. 9th edition games are completely different from 8th edition games. Speed and obsec are king and we have plenty of both.
2. Razorflail Succubus, this should have been caught in playtesting and tourney organizers should simply fix it like they did with 10 point reavers.
3. We have a lot more Obscuring terrain on the table now which protect our raiders turn 1. This is huge as our sails would often stick out and show us up.

I will probably not take DT anymore just because I am sure they will get nerfed but I don't feel they have won me anymore games then a squad of kabs with a blaster would. IH were a bigger issue to me as they had some strats which fundamentally broke the game such as Lev Dread characters with look out sir and other shennanagins making them mathematically unkillable, and this lasted something like 8 months. But now look at IH. I feel like they suck pretty hard. Same with IF. Really space marines are just not that good and that codex isn't very old.

I will continue to defend us until I see Admech and Sisters. If we kick the pants off those guys then come in for another round of nerfs.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 13:22

For my part i tried the DT combo (custom list), it was fun i gotta say, but i admit it is broken so i will never play it again until it comes back on earth with the MW being on the WR and not the HR as it is right now.

I purchased the Charadon Book and seriously, Cult of Strife is not tempting me at all, i prefer by far the Cult of Cursed Blade and Red Grief who fits my playstyle best, so no Razor's combo for me and i'm perfectly fine with that.

What happens is that there is three stages of playstyle in this game: competitive, local store and friendly games (and this is true for a lot of game, like Magic the Gathering).
What truly desolates me is this: There's the competitive scene who plays only to win, no matter the cost, no matter the fun factor......victory is what matters most, and i'm all right with that.
And then you go Local Store or Friendly........only to find people that all they do IS COPY THE GODDAMN LIST FROM THE COMPETITIVE SCENE CAUSE IT WON THE LAST GT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ho! and they even have a perfect guide on HOW TO PLAY THE GODDAMN COMPETITIVE LIST

If people playing local or for fun left the competitive lists where they belong, i'm pretty sure they'Re would be a lot less complaints about our strength.

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fisheyes
Incubi
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 13:52

Anyone watch the Art Of War battle yesterday with Nicks DE vs Sieglers Necron silvertide list?

Neck and neck the whole time, very balanced game (I will not spoil it any further).

I dont think we are THAT Op. As others keep saying, the meta needs to adapt to a non-elite force in the meta. Cant bring JUST Eradicators and plasma inceptors, you got to bring troops/transports/screens/counter charge units. The game is just getting more complicated, and the Meta needs to adapt or die.

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sekac
Wych
sekac

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 13:57

If you want to play with a soft handicap, just run a Realspace Raiders detachment. It's more challenging to write lists, more interesting to play with, and avoids some of the more absurd things. No 14CP, no Book of Rust combos/strats, no Drazhar, and an absolute MAX of 4 DT wrack units (or just run a different coven).

The mentality that the ONLY way to play this book competitively is with 3 patrols and one must be Cult of Strife, but then it's too good so you've gotta shelve the army is pretty extreme. There are options.

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The Strange Dark One
Wych
The Strange Dark One

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 13:57

@Kalmah wrote:
If people playing local or for fun left the competitive lists where they belong, i'm pretty sure they'Re would be a lot less complaints about our strength.

Absolutely this. Contrary to common believe you can in fact play the game without taking the strongest bits and pieces you can get.

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Vailex
Hellion
Vailex

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 14:04

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Kalmah wrote:
If people playing local or for fun left the competitive lists where they belong, i'm pretty sure they'Re would be a lot less complaints about our strength.

Absolutely this. Contrary to common believe you can in fact play the game without taking the strongest bits and pieces you can get.

Oh ya that's a whole different problem. Sites like goonhammer don't really help in this regard. They grab the units that math the best or the hot teet list of the week. I live in an area that is pretty competitive and has some of the best players in the states. We run into this issue a lot. Though we do have some super competitive guys that are a blast to play against.
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 14:04

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Kalmah wrote:
If people playing local or for fun left the competitive lists where they belong, i'm pretty sure they'Re would be a lot less complaints about our strength.

Absolutely this. Contrary to common believe you can in fact play the game without taking the strongest bits and pieces you can get.

Indeed. My current list is all Kabal. The only 'broken' thing I'm even considering is Drazhar and 2 x 5 Incubi.

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Zenotaph
Wych
Zenotaph

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 14:11

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Kalmah wrote:
If people playing local or for fun left the competitive lists where they belong, i'm pretty sure they'Re would be a lot less complaints about our strength.

Absolutely this. Contrary to common believe you can in fact play the game without taking the strongest bits and pieces you can get.

Indeed. My current list is all Kabal. The only 'broken' thing I'm even considering is Drazhar and 2 x 5 Incubi.
Drazhar is not broken. He is just a very "insert some more very" powerful beatstick.

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Yziel
Kabalite Warrior
Yziel

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 15:28

Drazhar is really ridiculous for his points.
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Zenotaph
Wych
Zenotaph

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 16:46

Ok, his price is too low. But his mechanics are ok.

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HERO
Hekatrix
HERO

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 18:33

@fisheyes wrote:
Anyone watch the Art Of War battle yesterday with Nicks DE vs Sieglers Necron silvertide list?

Neck and neck the whole time, very balanced game (I will not spoil it any further).

I dont think we are THAT Op. As others keep saying, the meta needs to adapt to a non-elite force in the meta. Cant bring JUST Eradicators and plasma inceptors, you got to bring troops/transports/screens/counter charge units. The game is just getting more complicated, and the Meta needs to adapt or die.


You're right, we are NOT that OP.

We have a handful of hyper-efficient units that when taking in concert and being piloted well, leads to dramatic results. However, it's important for us to first recognize this, and don't be an apologist saying everything is fine.

We did everything right here as a dedicated DE/competitive community:
1. We made predictions
2. We waited for data
3. We analyzed the data
4. We identified overperforming outliers
5. ??? Does GW know ??? (this is the biggest wtf, like how does this feedback loop work?)

I can give a netlist filled with all the most powerful elements (DT Wracks, Razor Succy, Drazhar) to X random non-DE player (not John Lenon) and they will be terrible. However, if I give the list to a competitive, good player who has solid fundamentals, I believe they will do very well.

I'm going to try a few lists where I'm going to deliberately make it harder on me. Again, I don't believe Raiders are the issue. I think the common issues are:
> DT Wracks
> Succubus
> Drazhar
> Incubi
> Cult of Strife
> Multiple ASL procs

So.....
I'm going to try some lists with double Kabal Trueborn (BH/PT) + Cult of Red Grief Wink That deliberate handicap without Wracks (never had any), Drazhar, B-Tier succy, and reduce ASL mechanics, no ASF on Wyches, no Strife strats..

and the most hilarious thing:
Quote :
SELF NERF LOL
--------------------------------
2000, 14 CP -2 WL Traits, -2 Relic = 10 CP

+++BLACK HEART PATROL+++

HQ:
Master Archon: Djin Blade, BPistol = 90
WL: Ancient Evil

TROOP:
10x Trueborn, 2x Blaster, Lance = 135
5x Warriors, Blaster = 50
5x Warriors, Blaster = 50

ELITE:
Incubi = 80
Incubi = 80

HEAVY:
Ravager = 140
Ravager = 140

PARTY BOATS:
Raider, Racks = 95
Raider, Racks = 95
Raider, Chains, Trophies = 95
Raider, Chains, Trophies = 95

+++POISONED TONGUE PATROL+++

HQ:
Master Archon: VBlade, BPistol = 85

TROOP:
10x Trueborn, 2x Blaster, Lance = 135

+++RED GRIEF PATROL+++

HQ:
Master Succubus: +BGlaive, Adrenal = 75
+WL: Precision Blows

Succubus: +TWhip, Adrenal = 60
+WL: Quicksilver Fighter

TROOP:
10x Bloodbrides, Grave Lotus = 120
10x Wyches, Grave Lotus = 100
10x Wyches, Grave Lotus = 100

PARTY BOATS:
Raider, Chains = 90
Raider, Chains = 90

This is nowhere a bad a list either Razz

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Last edited by HERO on Wed May 05 2021, 19:40; edited 4 times in total

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Zenotaph
Wych
Zenotaph

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Tier Predictions   Drukhari Tier Predictions - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed May 05 2021, 18:53

I think, nobody will blame you, if you take some Incubi with you. Very Happy

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